Psychics and Mediums?

[1stCenturyLady]

I appreciate this, but I never thought they were cut off because of exercising the gifts. I don't even think that they are backslidden Christians. They were never saved in the first place. Or else He would have known them at some point.

What stands out to me is that even non-believers can exercise these gifts... "in Jesus name".

A new tangent now??

No, a non-believer can't cast out demons like these did. So you are wrong. Are you trying to protect OSAS?

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

 

[Stranger]

I agree that any gifts operating today are not quite equal to what the Apostles had. Nor is our mission equal to theirs. They had a pretty good track record and except for the type of demon that required prayer and fasting, otherwise seemed to never fail. (Unless they failed to record those instances. :))

They were world changers as you say, but since the world is now changed, such potent gifts would only potentially undo what has been done.

But most things are 'first century' since the writing of Scripture ceased then. Most things we do not question as having continue beyond then. We have no Scripture beyond the first century examples mentioning prayer. This reminds me of the "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1Co 13:10) as the Church of Christ views it. "Perfect" meaning the complete and closed canon of scripture. And "part" meaning the apostolic gifts.

Why I cannot accept Cessation is because of...

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will get well." Mark 16:17-18

This has a 'whosoever' [believes] quality to it. And no suggestion of ceasing that I can find.

However, this does not at all rule out misuse and false performances or imitations. Nor people who innocently miss it or knowingly fake Christian belief for ulterior motives or do many good works to be seen of Men. The key in both cases is 'in Jesus name'. That's where the power resides.

How has the mission of the Church changed? Are you saying (Matt. 28:18-20) no longer applies to the Church?

(1 Cor. 13:10) has nothing to do with the canon of Scripture. It is talking about the Body of Christ brought into maturity. See (Eph. 4:11-13).

You seem to contradict yourself. In one breath speaking as if the gifts have ceased and in another saying you don't accept Cessation.

It doesn't matter what doctrine you hold, you will have imitators in your church.

Stranger

 

[Blueberry]

How has the mission of the Church changed?

The apostles were establishing the Church.

"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." 2cor 12:12

Are you saying (Matt. 28:18-20) no longer applies to the Church?

No.

(1 Cor. 13:10) has nothing to do with the canon of Scripture. It is talking about the Body of Christ brought into maturity. See (Eph. 4:11-13).

I said this is how the Church of Christ sees it. Go back and read more carefully this time.

You seem to contradict yourself. In one breath speaking as if the gifts have ceased and in another saying you don't accept Cessation.

Maybe I did? Do you understand what I was saying now?

 

[Blueberry]

No, a non-believer can't cast out demons like these did. So you are wrong. Are you trying to protect OSAS?

13 Then some of the itinerant Jewish exorcists took it upon themselves to call the name of the Lord Jesus over those who had evil spirits, saying, “We exorcise you by the Jesus whom Paul preaches.” 14 Also there were seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, who did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, “Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are you?”

16 Then the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, overpowered them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

Jesus "never knew" backsliders?

I have no idea what OSAS has to do with this?? I believe that the gifts are without repentance. If one was once saved, but even if they lost it, still why would Jesus say "I NEVER knew you"? Can you help me with that?

So you are saying that a former believer who has fallen away, lost their salvation, still gets to keep and use their gifts however they see fit and God is just stuck with that? Salvation is revocable, but not gifts?

I did mean to say "it seems" in regards to the unbelievers casting out demons. I thought about that after posting as I did. I am familiar with the scripture you quoted. Was running in several threads and an involved conversation simultaneously. It was sloppy posting on my part. I didn't agree with my statement after making it. Should have edited it, forgot to, but will not now.

I meant to post it as "why would Jesus say to people that He NEVER knew them (former believers) depart when they had been casting out demons and prophesying in his name"? He never refuted that they were successful in their endeavors. Because they had to have believed at one point to get the gifts, right? (This is a serious question. Not a statement posed as a question.)

I am not debating OSAS and accepting one can lose their salvation for sake of argument. So does Jesus forget people if He revokes their salvation? I know about names being blotted out. But that would be "no longer know you", not never, right?

How misstating that a non-believer might be able to cast out a demon is supposed to be a defense of OSAS is beyond me to figure out???

I have beliefs. Not agendas.

I appreciate you pointing this out. Would not want to be responsible for disseminating false information. Thank you. Blessings.

 

[Blueberry]

LOL You and Dave are focused so much on the gifts of the Spirit (that once given are never revoked,) and believe that it is those practicing the gifts that is the focus of the text and why Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." It isn't - they are backslidden Christians who now are indulging in sin. Jesus has given us the Spirit and we are commanded to never quench the Spirit and go back into darkness, but to stay in the light, walking in the Spirit. The Spirit produces fruit of the Spirit, and if someone no longer produces fruit, the branch is completely cut off. They have gone back to perdition. For Jesus to "know" you, you must be abiding in Him completely.

So if anyone is to be afraid, it is those believing in the error of OSAS.

I didn't even see this when I replied the first time. I did not read carefully. My apologies. My subsequent questions were answers even before I asked them! I understand what you are saying. Thanks for catching this.

Of course, I would not hold it against you if you were to demonstrate using Scripture how Jesus does not know people partially abiding in Him? How to know when I am abiding in Him completely? I take your warnings seriously. Please do not leave me here.

How do I fully abide?

 

[Blueberry]

Let me make sure I am asking these questions correctly.

I see the fruit of the spirit at operation in my life. Haven't cast out any demons. Haven't prophesized in over a year. I have done good works. Can this be so if I were not completely abiding?

What scriptures would show I am partially abiding but not completely abiding?

What scriptures would show I am completely abiding?

I think that I can figure out which ones show I am not abiding at all. But if you wan to share them too then I would be grateful.

Will I still go to Hell if I am abiding, but in error in my beliefs on OSAS?

Thanks.

 

[Stranger]

The apostles were establishing the Church.

"Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds." 2cor 12:12




No.




I said this is how the Church of Christ sees it. Go back and read more carefully this time.



Maybe I did? Do you understand what I was saying now?

That doesn't change the mission of the Church. The apostles mission is just as much our mission. If (Matt. 28:18-20) still applies, then our mission hasn't changed.

Are you talking about 'Church of Christ' the denomination, or the Body of Christ? I did read carefully, you were vague in what you were saying. Whether it is the denomination or the Body of Christ, you are still vague and contradictory. You still appear to be against the gifts yet say you do not hold to Cessation.

No, I don't understand what you are saying because you haven't clarified anything. You need to be more clear in what you are saying.

Stranger

 

[Dave L]

I agree that any gifts operating today are not quite equal to what the Apostles had. Nor is our mission equal to theirs. They had a pretty good track record and except for the type of demon that required prayer and fasting, otherwise seemed to never fail. (Unless they failed to record those instances. :))

They were world changers as you say, but since the world is now changed, such potent gifts would only potentially undo what has been done.

But most things are 'first century' since the writing of Scripture ceased then. Most things we do not question as having continue beyond then. We have no Scripture beyond the first century examples mentioning prayer. This reminds me of the "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1Co 13:10) as the Church of Christ views it. "Perfect" meaning the complete and closed canon of scripture. And "part" meaning the apostolic gifts.

Why I cannot accept Cessation is because of...

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will get well." Mark 16:17-18

This has a 'whosoever' [believes] quality to it. And no suggestion of ceasing that I can find.

However, this does not at all rule out misuse and false performances or imitations. Nor people who innocently miss it or knowingly fake Christian belief for ulterior motives or do many good works to be seen of Men. The key in both cases is 'in Jesus name'. That's where the power resides.

We cast out demons today in Jesus' name. We pray for the sick and many times the prayer of faith heals them. We speak in new tongues every time we quote scripture (NT scripture came from tongues and prophecy) and how many times have we taken up serpents in the metaphorical sense? We do it every day nowadays.

 

[Dave L]

Scares me too. I see from other posts that you have some Charismatic background. I started into genuine faith that way. Most that I experienced in my early faith years also seemed to have a good deal of WoF mixed in. What a mess! I witnessed a lot of strange and confusing spectacles. While I do not discount all that I witnessed or have experienced, I will say there is an overemphasis on the gifts in most of those communities. I got out too and eventually became a Berean.

I had noted you said "true prophecy" in your post that I originally replied to. And prophecy mentioned here is only one of three works cited. No doubt unregenerate people have trusted in "many good works" for all the centuries since the first century to save them. I still can't completely discount the casting out of demons either. Unless those first two categories were only early century people who were crying "Lord, Lord"? And the rest were works based over the next 18 centuries or so. Christ does not draw a clear distinction here.

Unbelievers can cast out demons because of the power in Jesus' name. I share some of your views in my Charismatic experiences as well. Here's a link to my WoF experiences.

 

[Dave L]

So you are saying all the interpretation from tongues resulted in Scripture?

We had only the OT. Tongues and prophecy were the only revelations available that when written and circulated became the NT scriptures. Of course all of the NT writers were prophets. So what we have in the NT scriptures is the pure tincture of the first century word of God. And the Spirit gives life to them he always did.

 

[Dave L]

Who is talking about 'imitating' tongues and prophecy? Only you.

Stranger

In the first century, those speaking in tongues understood what they were saying. Today's imitators do not.

 

[Dave L]

What an idiotic response. The Spirit doesn't come to the believer through Scripture. The Spirit comes when the believer places faith in Christ. And, the Scriptures that I just showed you, attest to that. Which you now deny.

You love to ask for Scripture. But when it is given, you shrink away like a snail that has had salt poured on it.

Your verbage after that is empty.

Stranger

“Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.” (1 Peter 1:23) (KJV 1900)

 

[Blueberry]

That doesn't change the mission of the Church. The apostles mission is just as much our mission. If (Matt. 28:18-20) still applies, then our mission hasn't changed.

Are you talking about 'Church of Christ' the denomination, or the Body of Christ? I did read carefully, you were vague in what you were saying. Whether it is the denomination or the Body of Christ, you are still vague and contradictory. You still appear to be against the gifts yet say you do not hold to Cessation.

No, I don't understand what you are saying because you haven't clarified anything. You need to be more clear in what you are saying.

Stranger

I thought that I had found a way to bridge the gap between you guys and Dave so there would be less vitriol. It was a flailing unsuccessful attempt.

Yes denomination.

I am unable to be more clear at this time, I am extremely burned out. I tried to contribute.

Blessings

 

[Blueberry]

We cast out demons today in Jesus' name. We pray for the sick and many times the prayer of faith heals them. We speak in new tongues every time we quote scripture (NT scripture came from tongues and prophecy) and how many times have we taken up serpents in the metaphorical sense? We do it every day nowadays.

I am completely confused now. Blessings Dave.

 

[Blueberry]

Unbelievers can cast out demons because of the power in Jesus' name. I share some of your views in my Charismatic experiences as well. Here's a link to my WoF experiences.

I remember one instance of it somewhere, but am too depleted to look it up now. I almost got tossed from a Baptist bible study over it.

 

[Dave L]

I remember one instance of it somewhere, but am too depleted to look it up now. I almost got tossed from a Baptist bible study over it.

Click the link >>> Wof experiences <<<

 

[Blueberry]

No, I don't understand what you are saying because you haven't clarified anything. You need to be more clear in what you are saying.

Stranger

Why I cannot accept Cessation is because of...

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will get well." Mark 16:17-18

That. I cannot be any clearer than that. Not at this time. I'm exhausted. I found my breaking point. Which I needed to find. Please disregard my posts on these matters.

 

[Blueberry]

Click the link >>> Wof experiences <<<

I will when I get the chance. Thanks.

 

[Blueberry]

You seem to contradict yourself.

Yes, when I breakdown I do this.

It is when I see myself doing this that I know I have returned to a certain state in my condition.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Jesus "never knew" backsliders?

I have no idea what OSAS has to do with this?? I believe that the gifts are without repentance. If one was once saved, but even if they lost it, still why would Jesus say "I NEVER knew you"? Can you help me with that?

So you are saying that a former believer who has fallen away, lost their salvation, still gets to keep and use their gifts however they see fit and God is just stuck with that? Salvation is revocable, but not gifts?

Jesus is omniscient, so he KNOWS everything and everyone. This is not that kind of knowing. It is knowing in the Biblical sense, like consummating a marriage. To receive the Holy Spirit one must repent of all sin, and Jesus gives you the Holy Spirit. Consider it an engagement ring. But salvation is at the end for those who endure to the end. Only those become His Bride. It is not losing your marriage, but losing your engagement.

Romans 11:28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’

They are not saying, "Are we," but "have we not." That is past tense. We have to endure to the end.