Psychics and Mediums?

[Heart2Soul]

Please consider the historic record of the gifts. Two outpourings 7 years apart. One Jewish, one gentile. And all other instances of people receiving the gifts came through an apostle's hands. With no mention of any other way. Notice the past tense of Hebrews.

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)

Whoever or wherever you have read and come to believe that the gifts only come on by the apostle's hands has deceived you. The gifts manifest through us by the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit....without the Holy Spirit there is no power, there is no gift manifesting.

You are not able to receive this knowledge because you deny the power of God as a continuous existing part of His character.....you give psychics and mediums and satan and his false teachers and prophets more credibility than God who is the creator.....I am always shocked that people will quote the Bible where it warns us to beware of false prophets and teachers...and that Satan performs miracles and signs and wonders...But to give God any credit to be able to do miracles today seems to be something that people bound up in false doctrine cannot conceive as possible or scriptural.....WAKE UP! God is moving mightily upon the earth in these last days and manifesting His power over the enemy through miracles, signs and wonders and HE IS THE MASTER at it!.

Satan has the power to perform miracles. While his power is limited, he can and does perform miracles in order to deceive. John 8:44 says that Satan is a liar and the father of lies. Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God.

When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11). God’s miracle was shown to be greater (verse 12), but the fact is that the magi were able to perform a satanic miracle in the king’s court.

During the tribulation, the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

 

[Stranger]

But you cannot support this with scripture.

As Heart2Soul showed you, Scripture does support the gifts of the Holy Spirit.

“Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?” (Galatians 3:4–5) (KJV 1900)

And as she also showed you, (Gal. 3:4-5) have nothing to do with the gifts.

Please consider the historic record of the gifts. Two outpourings 7 years apart. One Jewish, one gentile. And all other instances of people receiving the gifts came through an apostle's hands. With no mention of any other way. Notice the past tense of Hebrews.

“How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?” (Hebrews 2:3–4) (KJV 1900)

With the coming of the Holy Spirit the gifts would be present. It doesn't matter when the Holy Spirit comes. Whether it be on Pentecost or on the Gentiles, or in the individual believer who believes. Once the Holy Spirit gives life to a new believer, the believer has gifts from the Holy Spirit.

Concerning (Heb. 2:3-4), past tense means nothing. Paul is simply relating that which occurred in the past. Does this mean 'salvation' is in the past and is no longer present. Foolish.

You offer nothing to prove the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

I agree but close the loop a little tighter.

When is that going to kick in?

Stranger

 

[charity]

Hello there,

The sad thing is that while there is a failure to acknowledge that a change of administration took place at the end of the Acts period, issues such as this will continue to be debated.

Spiritual gifts were anticipatory of millennial blessings, and were confirmatory: intended to open the eyes of Israel to the identity of their Messiah (Acts 2:17-18), and be brought to repentance, that Christ may return unto them (Acts 3:19-21). This door was open throughout the Acts period, until the final proclamation by Paul of the prophecy of Isaiah in Acts 28,25-28: as warned of in Acts 13:40-41; and Israel went out into blindness (though temporarily).

A new dispensation came into force, with the revelation of God to Paul of the truth concerning the Church of the One Body, previously unknown, and 'hid in God' (Eph. 3:9) of which Christ is the head: made known in subsequent epistles by Paul as it's Steward (Eph. Phil. Col. 1 & 2 Tim. and Titus), according to the will of God . In this dispensation spiritual gifts are conspicuous by their absence.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Dave L]

As Heart2Soul showed you, Scripture does support the gifts of the Holy Spirit.



And as she also showed you, (Gal. 3:4-5) have nothing to do with the gifts.



With the coming of the Holy Spirit the gifts would be present. It doesn't matter when the Holy Spirit comes. Whether it be on Pentecost or on the Gentiles, or in the individual believer who believes. Once the Holy Spirit gives life to a new believer, the believer has gifts from the Holy Spirit.

Concerning (Heb. 2:3-4), past tense means nothing. Paul is simply relating that which occurred in the past. Does this mean 'salvation' is in the past and is no longer present. Foolish.

You offer nothing to prove the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

Stranger

The challenge is for you to prove God distributed the Charismatic Gifts in another way beyond the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. We know this happened according to scripture, but it does not support other means.

 

[Enoch111]

You offer nothing to prove the gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased.

There are about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the NT. Christians must always distinguish between sign gifts and other gifts. While the sign gifts (signs, wonders, and miracles or mighty deeds) were for the Apostolic Age, most of the other gifts are still in place, other than prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (1 Cor 13:8), all of which are related to divine revelations. The prophets and apostles are limited to the Bible itself. However evangelists, pastors, and teachers are still necessary.

This does not mean that God does not perform miracles in answer to prayers. James says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The challenge is for you to prove God distributed the Charismatic Gifts in another way beyond the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. We know this happened according to scripture, but it does not support other means.

There are about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the NT. Christians must always distinguish between sign gifts and other gifts. While the sign gifts (signs, wonders, and miracles or mighty deeds) were for the Apostolic Age, most of the other gifts are still in place, other than prophecy, tongues, and knowledge (1 Cor 13:8), all of which are related to divine revelations. The prophets and apostles are limited to the Bible itself. However evangelists, pastors, and teachers are still necessary.

This does not mean that God does not perform miracles in answer to prayers. James says that the prayer of faith shall heal the sick.

Greetings gentlemen. With this debate I usually keep it very simple. The prophetic gifts still are in manifestation today, but that can easily be denied by the naysayers. So I ask about Joel 2:28 and if it is a prophecy regarding the future.

@Enoch111 : I don't think you gave an answer to this one last time. Dreams, visions and prophecy are all manifestations of the prophetic gifts, which is why they're listed together in this verse. So do you think they will eventually return in full manifestation, or no?

@Dave L : Same question, and if the prophecy is specifically with regard to the end-times, by what apostle's hands will they operate in the prophetic?

Blessings.

 

[Dave L]

Greetings gentlemen. With this debate I usually keep it very simple. The prophetic gifts still are in manifestation today, but that can easily be denied by the naysayers. So I ask about Joel 2:28 and if it is a prophecy regarding the future.

@Enoch111 : I don't think you gave an answer to this one last time. Dreams, visions and prophecy are all manifestations of the prophetic gifts, which is why they're listed together in this verse. So do you think they will eventually return in full manifestation, or no?

@Dave L : Same question, and if the prophecy is specifically with regard to the end-times, by what apostle's hands will they operate in the prophetic?

Blessings.

The written word contains all prophecies pertaining to the end times.

 

[Hidden In Him]

The written word contains all prophecies pertaining to the end times.

LoL. Come on, Dave. You're always shouting "Give me a scripture! One scripture!"

So I gave you a scripture. One scripture (for starters). The way it works now is that you give me your interpretation and we go from there.

Btw, Happy Thanksgiving.... turkey!

 

[Dave L]

LoL. Come on, Dave. You're always shouting "Give me a scripture! One scripture!"

So I gave you a scripture. One scripture (for starters). The way it works now is that you give me your interpretation and we go from there.

Btw, Happy Thanksgiving.... turkey!

All true prophecy ceased in the first century.

 

[Hidden In Him]

All true prophecy ceased in the first century.

Well thanks for the in-depth debate, LoL. Quite a matching of wits.

 

[CoreIssue]

God gives gifts of the holy spirit when he wants and how he wants.

That that does not mean what the Pentecostals say is what the bible says. Because it isn't

They separate salvation/born again and baptism of the holy spirit. Never hinted at in the bible.

Fact is the bible says every saint has a gift.

 

[Dave L]

Whoever or wherever you have read and come to believe that the gifts only come on by the apostle's hands has deceived you. The gifts manifest through us by the anointing and power of the Holy Spirit....without the Holy Spirit there is no power, there is no gift manifesting.

You are not able to receive this knowledge because you deny the power of God as a continuous existing part of His character.....you give psychics and mediums and satan and his false teachers and prophets more credibility than God who is the creator.....I am always shocked that people will quote the Bible where it warns us to beware of false prophets and teachers...and that Satan performs miracles and signs and wonders...But to give God any credit to be able to do miracles today seems to be something that people bound up in false doctrine cannot conceive as possible or scriptural.....WAKE UP! God is moving mightily upon the earth in these last days and manifesting His power over the enemy through miracles, signs and wonders and HE IS THE MASTER at it!.

Satan has the power to perform miracles. While his power is limited, he can and does perform miracles in order to deceive. John 8:44 says that Satan is a liar and the father of lies. Satan can make himself appear as an angel of light (2 Corinthians 11:14). He does this to draw people away from God.

When Moses and Aaron confronted Pharaoh, they performed a miraculous sign to confirm their message from God (Exodus 7:8–10). The magi of Egypt were able to perform the same miracle “by their secret arts” (verse 11). God’s miracle was shown to be greater (verse 12), but the fact is that the magi were able to perform a satanic miracle in the king’s court.

During the tribulation, the Antichrist “will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). These miracles are explicitly said to be empowered by Satan. Jesus warned that the end times will be characterized by the treachery of counterfeit prophets who “will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive” (Matthew 24:24).

The people who harp the loudest about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are the furthest removed from ever receiving it. Jesus' words are Spirit and life. And when we immerse ourselves in scripture we experience the fullness of the Spirit. Before scripture reached completion, we had bits and pieces of it in tongues and prophecy. But when we collected all of those fragments and combined them into one, we had the completed picture. So chasing after visions and voices, assuming it is God, removes us from the very source where God speaks the loudest and clearest, the scriptures. And they remain our only source for the fullness of the Spirit.

 

[Enoch111]

So I ask about Joel 2:28 and if it is a prophecy regarding the future.

Yes. Joel was prophesying about Pentecost, the Day of the LORD, and the future of Israel all in one prophecy. That is how many prophecies do appear, with near and far events seemingly joined together.

@Enoch111 : I don't think you gave an answer to this one last time. Dreams, visions and prophecy are all manifestations of the prophetic gifts, which is why they're listed together in this verse. So do you think they will eventually return in full manifestation, or no?

Yes. There will be an outpouring of the Spirit upon believing Jews (the believing remnant) after the second coming of Christ and before the redemption and restoration of Israel. What happened on the Day of Pentecost was an intimation of the total fulfillment of this prophesy.

EZEKIEL 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit* within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

*capitalized for clarity

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes. There will be an outpouring of the Spirit upon believing Jews (the believing remnant) after the second coming of Christ and before the redemption and restoration of Israel. What happened on the Day of Pentecost was an intimation of the total fulfillment of this prophesy.

EZEKIEL 36
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my Spirit* within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28 And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

Well this is an interesting position, but are you sure it holds up with the rest of scripture? Notice in Joel that the outpouring happens before the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood, and both happen before the Day of the Lord:

28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit. 30 And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke. 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible Day of the Lord come. (Joel 2:28-31)

The same order is given in Matthew 24. The tribulation takes place, and then the sun and moon grow dark, and then the return of Christ (and by extension the commencement of the Day of God's wrath):

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. (Matthew 24:29-30)

 

[Heart2Soul]

The people who harp the loudest about the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are the furthest removed from ever receiving it. Jesus' words are Spirit and life. And when we immerse ourselves in scripture we experience the fullness of the Spirit. Before scripture reached completion, we had bits and pieces of it in tongues and prophecy. But when we collected all of those fragments and combined them into one, we had the completed picture. So chasing after visions and voices, assuming it is God, removes us from the very source where God speaks the loudest and clearest, the scriptures. And they remain our only source for the fullness of the Spirit.

Your argument is so weak....no power behind it.....no substance.....no anointing.....and no truth.

 

[Enoch111]

Notice in Joel that the outpouring happens before the sun turns to darkness and the moon to blood, and both happen before the Day of the Lord

As I said, events near and far are all stated within *the same breath*. So *before* and *after* is not really applicable. As you well know, the Day of the LORD itself is separated from the day of Pentecost by over 2,000 years!

1. In chapter 1 Joel speaks about the plague of locusts which has come upon the land of Judah (probably in the 7th century BC). But then he says: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Without further insight into the Day of the LORD, one would think that this plague is a part of that judgment. But the Day of the LORD cannot be separated from the Great Tribulation, which is in the future. At the same time, this plague of locusts is a forerunner of the plague of DEMONIC LOCUSTS described in Revelation.

2. Next Joel goes on to describe the Day of the LORD in Joel 2:1-17, which is regarding future events.

3. Then Joel mentions the northern army in 2:20. Presumably this is the Assyrian invasion of the norther kingdom of Israel (740-720 BC).

4. Then Joel speaks about the restoration of Israel AFTER the Day of the LORD (vv 18-27)

5. Then Joel speaks about about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (vv 28-29), which has a double application.

6. Then Joel speaks about the cosmic events AFTER the Great Tribulation (the Day of the LORD) (vv 30-31)

7. Then Joel speaks about Pentecost (when about 3,000 souls were saved after calling upon the name of the Lord) (v 32) which has a DOUBLE APPLICATION, since the Holy Spirit will again be poured out upon believing Israel (as I already pointed out) after the second coming of Christ, and *all Israel (the believing remnant) shall be saved*.

And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

So what you (and everyone) must understand is that there is no linear progression in Joel (or any of the prophets). Only a proper study of all Scripture will allow us to place events in their proper sequence.

 

[CoreIssue]

Here is information on the day of the lord

Day of the Lord

 

[Jay Ross]

Hello

For us to have a proper study of the scriptures we must first remove all of our biases from our thinking and all of the biases that have been embedded into the translations that we use to understand what the original source text used for the respective translations are saying theologically.

Sadly to remove all of the biases from our understanding of the scriptures we have to go ourselves and research exactly what is contained within the context of the original source texts.

What @CoreIssue has done from my brief and quick scan of his linked document is to limit the definition of "the day of the Lord" to for the Hebrew text, “י֣וֹם יְהוָ֑ה” or “Yah·weh; yō·wm” reading both right to left, which he claims only occurs 8 times in the OT, and for the Greek Text, “ἡμέρα Κυρίου” or “hēmera Kyriou” which he claims only occurs twice in the NT.

However, there are other constructs in the respective text which also point to other occurrences of the English understanding of the "Day of the Lord," which are subtly different in their form and context.

The "day of the Lord" could, depending on the context in which it is found, could represent a day in terms of man's timeframe, i.e. a 24hr period of time, or it could represent a much longer period of time which is in keeping with a period of time that is associated with an age, i.e. around 1,000 plus years within man's timeframe.

The time necessary for a full study to remove our biases from our understanding is something that could take years. Every day, i.e. and expression w.r.t. frequency, I am learning new things which requires me to change my understanding which has a ripple effect on all that I understand with respect to the End Times.

Things like God promised to plant Israel when he gathers them to Himself in our near future to plant them in fertile soil so that He can teach them about the fundamentals of God and the co-responding requirements that goes with the symbolic, "mountains of Israel", i.e. the Statues of God. This means that God is planning to leave the Israelites scattered through the whole earth so that they can be the Kingdom of Priests to the nations in all of the earth, and our efforts to establish Israel within the boundaries of the Land of Canaan, is actually going against the plans that God has for Israel to be His Kingdom of Priests to bless all of the nations of the earth.

There is so much that the Saints have to unlearn in order to be in sink with God and His purposes for mankind on this earth.

So much of our understanding has been scrambled by the scholars from our past who could not comprehend the timeline of God nor His promise of the earth to Abraham as found in Genesis 12: 1-4, an earth that God will show Abraham and His descendants in the distant future, such that Daniel 7: 27 actually makes sense.

Sadly we too are a stiff necked people who need to soften the foreskin of our understanding and come into God's teaching and understanding.

Shalom

Jay Ross

 

[Stranger]

The challenge is for you to prove God distributed the Charismatic Gifts in another way beyond the two outpourings or through an apostle's hands. We know this happened according to scripture, but it does not support other means.

Not much of a challenge. First acknowledge that the believer has the Spirit of God. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

If you have the Spirit then you have gifts from the Spirit.

(1 Cor. 12:1) "...brethren I would not have you ignorant." (1 Cor. 12:4) "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:7) "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."

Many gifts are then listed in (1 Cor. 12:8-10). Then Paul says, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...."

(1 Cor. 12:18) "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."

(1 Cor. 12:27-28) "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Stranger