Psychics and Mediums?

[Blueberry]

All true prophecy ceased in the first century.

Hey Dave. I really hope that you are right on this one! Would really like to think that this couldn't possibly apply to me. Though the many would seem to indicate that prophecy was around for a fairly long period of time.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mt 7:22 KJV

 

[Hidden In Him]

As I said, events near and far are all stated within *the same breath*. So *before* and *after* is not really applicable.

You're generally fairly solid on your futurist interpretations of end-time prophecy, so I'm surprised you would not want to retain the words "before" and "after" in making more exacting determinations on the order of end-times events.

But let me break down your #1-7 and tell you where I think you are missing it. For starters (as you also stated), this book is set prior to the invasion of Israel by the Assyrians. This is clear from the prediction that an invading nation would divide the land, and only Israel was taken into captivity where as Judah was left. This is when the division between Israel and Judah began. It also evident from the fact that this invading nation comes from the North (Joel 2:20), which was the direction the Assyrian armies came from.

That having been said:

1. In chapter 1 Joel speaks about the plague of locusts which has come upon the land of Judah (probably in the 7th century BC). But then he says: Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

Without further insight into the Day of the LORD, one would think that this plague is a part of that judgment. But the Day of the LORD cannot be separated from the Great Tribulation, which is in the future. At the same time, this plague of locusts is a forerunner of the plague of DEMONIC LOCUSTS described in Revelation.

The Day of the Lord is always depicted as a judgment on the unbelieving nations. Always. It is never discussed in reference to a judgment upon Israel, but rather in defense of Israel and as a judgment against her enemies (Joel 2:17). The plagues in Chapter 1, however, are the effects of having been conquered by the Assyrians. As you can see, this invading nation is what will make the land a waste (Joel 1:7). So the Day of the Lord upon the nations and the plagues He was predicting would come upon the land of Israel are two different things, and the Lord was imploring His people to cry to Him for the Day of vengeance to come upon their enemies.

2. Next Joel goes on to describe the Day of the LORD in Joel 2:1-17, which is regarding future events.

Correct (essentially).

3. Then Joel mentions the northern army in 2:20. Presumably this is the Assyrian invasion of the norther kingdom of Israel (740-720 BC).

Correct.

4. Then Joel speaks about the restoration of Israel AFTER the Day of the LORD (vv 18-27)

Here is where you make your big boo boo. I know you are trying to say there is no chronological order, but there actually is here. This whole passage is set before Joel 2:28, which means Peter believed v.18-27 had already been fulfilled in some sense, and likely that the passage referred to the angels of God driving the Assyrians back supernaturally. (Note: Peter apparently also believed that these events preceded the Day of the Lord since it hadn't come yet, and was therefore not contingent with them). Then comes V.28, which starts with "And it will come about after this...," i.e. after God's army comes to deliver them from enemy oppression.

I still have a hard time believing you devalue the words "before" and "after" as not having meaning. They are signposts telling us the order of events. I do agree with you, however, that the passages have more than one fulfillment. The greater fulfillment of 2:28 is set to happen in the future, as verses like 2:31 have not yet occurred in any sense. And regarding the end-times, the passage on the army of God in Chapter 2 is actually in reference to an army of believers that will be anointed by God during the end-times to perform signs, miracles and wonders, and deliver His church during a time of incredible spiritual oppression. But you don't have to believe that if you wish. What is certain is that this outpouring (in it's fullest sense) is set to occur in a time that precedes the sun being turned to darkness, and the moon to blood, which will both precede the Day of the Lord.

5. Then Joel speaks about about the outpouring of the Holy Spirit (vv 28-29), which has a double application.

Correct.

6. Then Joel speaks about the cosmic events AFTER the Great Tribulation (the Day of the LORD) (vv 30-31)

Correct.

7. Then Joel speaks about Pentecost (when about 3,000 souls were saved after calling upon the name of the Lord) (v 32) which has a DOUBLE APPLICATION, since the Holy Spirit will again be poured out upon believing Israel (as I already pointed out) after the second coming of Christ, and *all Israel (the believing remnant) shall be saved*.

Almost. I believe it does indeed have a double application, but that the second outpouring will come upon the church, not Israel. But again, this goes back to my believing in the chronologies implied in other prophetic texts, like Matthew 24.

 

[Dave L]

Hey Dave. I really hope that you are right on this one! Would really like to think that this couldn't possibly apply to me. Though the many would seem to indicate that prophecy was around for a fairly long period of time.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mt 7:22 KJV

This verse scares me. I think of the Charismatics to whom it seems to apply. It doesn't fit the description of mainline Christendom. And it happens at the end of the world.

 

[Dave L]

Not much of a challenge. First acknowledge that the believer has the Spirit of God. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit,if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

If you have the Spirit then you have gifts from the Spirit.

(1 Cor. 12:1) "...brethren I would not have you ignorant." (1 Cor. 12:4) "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit." (1 Cor. 12:7) "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal."

Many gifts are then listed in (1 Cor. 12:8-10). Then Paul says, "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."

(1 Cor. 12:13) "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body...."

(1 Cor. 12:18) "But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him."

(1 Cor. 12:27-28) "Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues."

Stranger

The Spirit comes through scripture today. The gifts were the early means of delivery and became scripture when all the bits and fragments were collected. So we have first century tongues and prophecy in the scriptures. No where else to be found.

 

[Dave L]

Your argument is so weak....no power behind it.....no substance.....no anointing.....and no truth.

We have first century tongues and prophecy recorded as scripture today. If you want the same impact the first century Church had, you need those same prophecies and tongues messages found only in scripture. Imitating tongues and prophecy is empty an leads only to the wrong place. Voices in head = not good.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Indeed he has. And, he has tried to identify the legitimate use of the Bible in understanding last things, as some sort of sorcery.

Stranger

Yes, just like he does with the gifts of the Spirit.

 

[Dave L]

Yes, just like he does with the gifts of the Spirit.

You can feed on fluff as most do today. Or you can feast on God's word. And experience the fullness of the Spirit. By listening to the same tongues and prophecies that became our scriptures. And turned the world upside down in the first century.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You can feed on fluff as most do today. Or you can feast on God's word. And experience the fullness of the Spirit. By listening to the same tongues and prophecies that became our scriptures. And turned the world upside down in the first century.

I sure would like to hear why you left the Charismatic church you went to for years. Was there a particular incident, or did you just know what you had wasn't real?

 

[Dave L]

I sure would like to hear why you left the Charismatic church you went to for years. Was there a particular incident, or did you just know what you had wasn't real?

It's not just charismatics, but most churches I spent time in. I had too many questions that went unanswered. So I dropped out and began studying the bible on my own. Answering one question after another until I am where I am today.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

It's not just charismatics, but most churches I spent time in. I had too many questions that went unanswered. So I dropped out and began studying the bible on my own. Answering one question after another until I am where I am today.

Did you ever experience anything you thought was a gift from God?

 

[Dave L]

Did you ever experience anything you thought was a gift from God?

Yes, the fullness of the Spirit along with the joy and happiness as a routine way of life. But I thought the charismatics were playing early church the same way little kids play house.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes, the fullness of the Spirit along with the joy and happiness as a routine way of life. But I thought the charismatics were playing early church the same way little kids play house.

So you, yourself, never were lead supernaturally on what to pray or heard God's voice or saw a vision or spoke in tongues, just thought others were playing 1st century church? What about when reading scripture a verse went through you with chills? (Good chills, lol)

 

[Dave L]

So you, yourself, never were lead supernaturally on what to pray or heard God's voice or saw a vision or spoke in tongues, just thought others were playing 1st century church? What about when reading scripture a verse went through you with chills? (Good chills, lol)

God puts burdens on our hearts and we pray and sometimes fast seeking relief. And he puts problem solving scripture in our minds when we pray for wisdom. Love always points the right direction. And gut feeling is truly a sign we should be Leary. As is dark humor. But if you want first century tongues and prophecy, it's recorded as scripture. The same words that turned the world upside down. Voices in head = not good.

 

[Stranger]

The Spirit comes through scripture today. The gifts were the early means of delivery and became scripture when all the bits and fragments were collected. So we have first century tongues and prophecy in the scriptures. No where else to be found.

What an idiotic response. The Spirit doesn't come to the believer through Scripture. The Spirit comes when the believer places faith in Christ. And, the Scriptures that I just showed you, attest to that. Which you now deny.

You love to ask for Scripture. But when it is given, you shrink away like a snail that has had salt poured on it.

Your verbage after that is empty.

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

We have first century tongues and prophecy recorded as scripture today. If you want the same impact the first century Church had, you need those same prophecies and tongues messages found only in scripture. Imitating tongues and prophecy is empty an leads only to the wrong place. Voices in head = not good.

Who is talking about 'imitating' tongues and prophecy? Only you.

Stranger

 

[1stCenturyLady]

God puts burdens on our hearts and we pray and sometimes fast seeking relief. And he puts problem solving scripture in our minds when we pray for wisdom. Love always points the right direction. And gut feeling is truly a sign we should be Leary. As is dark humor. But if you want first century tongues and prophecy, it's recorded as scripture. The same words that turned the world upside down. Voices in head = not good.

So you are saying all the interpretation from tongues resulted in Scripture?

 

[Blueberry]

This verse scares me. I think of the Charismatics to whom it seems to apply. It doesn't fit the description of mainline Christendom. And it happens at the end of the world.

Scares me too. I see from other posts that you have some Charismatic background. I started into genuine faith that way. Most that I experienced in my early faith years also seemed to have a good deal of WoF mixed in. What a mess! I witnessed a lot of strange and confusing spectacles. While I do not discount all that I witnessed or have experienced, I will say there is an overemphasis on the gifts in most of those communities. I got out too and eventually became a Berean.

I had noted you said "true prophecy" in your post that I originally replied to. And prophecy mentioned here is only one of three works cited. No doubt unregenerate people have trusted in "many good works" for all the centuries since the first century to save them. I still can't completely discount the casting out of demons either. Unless those first two categories were only early century people who were crying "Lord, Lord"? And the rest were works based over the next 18 centuries or so. Christ does not draw a clear distinction here.

 

[Blueberry]

We have first century tongues and prophecy recorded as scripture today. If you want the same impact the first century Church had, you need those same prophecies and tongues messages found only in scripture. Imitating tongues and prophecy is empty an leads only to the wrong place. Voices in head = not good.

I agree that any gifts operating today are not quite equal to what the Apostles had. Nor is our mission equal to theirs. They had a pretty good track record and except for the type of demon that required prayer and fasting, otherwise seemed to never fail. (Unless they failed to record those instances. )

They were world changers as you say, but since the world is now changed, such potent gifts would only potentially undo what has been done.

But most things are 'first century' since the writing of Scripture ceased then. Most things we do not question as having continue beyond then. We have no Scripture beyond the first century examples mentioning prayer. This reminds me of the "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away." (1Co 13:10) as the Church of Christ views it. "Perfect" meaning the complete and closed canon of scripture. And "part" meaning the apostolic gifts.

Why I cannot accept Cessation is because of...

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; they will pick up snakes; if they should drink anything deadly, it will not harm them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will get well." Mark 16:17-18

This has a 'whosoever' [believes] quality to it. And no suggestion of ceasing that I can find.

However, this does not at all rule out misuse and false performances or imitations. Nor people who innocently miss it or knowingly fake Christian belief for ulterior motives or do many good works to be seen of Men. The key in both cases is 'in Jesus name'. That's where the power resides.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Scares me too. I see from other posts that you have some Charismatic background. I started into genuine faith that way. Most that I experienced in my early faith years also seemed to have a good deal of WoF mixed in. What a mess! I witnessed a lot of strange and confusing spectacles. While I do not discount all that I witnessed or have experienced, I will say there is an overemphasis on the gifts in most of those communities. I got out too and eventually became a Berean.

I had noted you said "true prophecy" in your post that I originally replied to. And prophecy mentioned here is only one of three works cited. No doubt unregenerate people have trusted in "many good works" for all the centuries since the first century to save them. I still can't completely discount the casting out of demons either. Unless those first two categories were only early century people who were crying "Lord, Lord"? And the rest were works based over the next 18 centuries or so. Christ does not draw a clear distinction here.

LOL You and Dave are focused so much on the gifts of the Spirit (that once given are never revoked,) and believe that it is those practicing the gifts that is the focus of the text and why Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." It isn't - they are backslidden Christians who now are indulging in sin. Jesus has given us the Spirit and we are commanded to never quench the Spirit and go back into darkness, but to stay in the light, walking in the Spirit. The Spirit produces fruit of the Spirit, and if someone no longer produces fruit, the branch is completely cut off. They have gone back to perdition. For Jesus to "know" you, you must be abiding in Him completely.

So if anyone is to be afraid, it is those believing in the error of OSAS.

 

[Blueberry]

LOL You and Dave are focused so much on the gifts of the Spirit (that once given are never revoked,) and believe that it is those practicing the gifts that is the focus of the text and why Jesus will say to them, "I never knew you." It isn't - they are backslidden Christians who now are indulging in sin. Jesus has given us the Spirit and we are commanded to never quench the Spirit and go back into darkness, but to stay in the light, walking in the Spirit. The Spirit produces fruit of the Spirit, and if someone no longer produces fruit, the branch is completely cut off. They have gone back to perdition. For Jesus to "know" you, you must be abiding in Him completely.

I appreciate this, but I never thought they were cut off because of exercising the gifts. I don't even think that they are backslidden Christians. They were never saved in the first place. Or else He would have known them at some point.

What stands out to me is that even non-believers can exercise these gifts... "in Jesus name".

A new tangent now??