Revelation chapters 13-16 - Sequence of Events

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Let's look at the parallel account with Revelation of chapters 13-16 inclusive, which I call the Rise and Fall of the anti-Christ. I think the whole of the one 'seven' is detailed here to give us some added information which is missing from other accounts, mainly the seventh Trumpet, but also about the 144,000 and about the nature of the Day of the Lord and some things peculiar to the sixth Seal which lead to much confusion about the Wrath of God first mentioned in writing in Revelation chapter 6.

In outline form from the four chapters of Revelation 13 through 16 here are the “events:”

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea”
.....o Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven'
.....o He wages war against the Saints
.....o We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
• Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky'
• Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ: the midpoint abomination
• Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution
• 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion
• 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
• Son of Man coming on the clouds
• Harvest from the clouds
• Avenging Angels - Blood and Fire
• First Bowl - Sores on Man
• Second Bowl - All sea to blood
• Third Bowl - All water to blood
• Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
• Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
• Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
• Seventh Bowl - Earth changing earthquake

Note that the highlighted and colored portions exactly match the Olivet Discourse in their order of sequence for those events.

Working backwards at first, in sequencing this account to the previous compilation, the Bowl Judgments come last - it says so in the Harvest account in chapter 15. Previously the seventh Trumpet announcement was broken off in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapter 10 when John is told not to write and only later summed up with no details of the desolations it ensues being revealed whatsoever. So now God shows to John what he didn't write about in the Seal/Scroll chronology: the desolations of the third Woe. They are all of the first "thirds" Trumpet Judgments but now - they're total. The depth of God’s Wrath is displayed in the third Woe.

Notice that the end comes with an earth-changing Great earthquake. This marries what chapter 11 had at its end and in addition, what concludes the sidebar account of Revelation 11:1-13. There are parallel accounts within the book of Revelation because there is so much action taking place, and one of the clues that these take place is repeated events. This is also the reason the book of Revelation is so hard to read when read like a novel; the action seems to go back and forth.

So the easiest sequencing of all is to preserve the finality of the Bowl Judgments. They complete the third Woe of the seventh Trumpet. The Bowl Judgments can be viewed as the revealed third Woe; they follow the seventh Trumpet.

• Seventh Trumpet
.....o First Bowl - Sores on Man
.....o Second Bowl - All sea to blood
.....o Third Bowl - All water to blood
.....o Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
.....o Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
.....o Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
.......... Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss. (from the sidebar account of Rev 11:1-13)
.....o Seventh Bowl

Starting at the beginning of Revelation chapters 13 through 16 now, the beast of a nation rises before the beast of a man is given authority to rule for 42 months doing pretty much as he pleases without interference. This comes before the midpoint abomination now revealed as the erection of the talking image of the same anti-Christ by the false prophet who is introduced as being the source for “fire falling from the sky” which could be an apt description of a nuclear bomb explosion. That seminal event worthy of mention happens during the first half of the one ‘seven’ and before the midpoint abomination as well. The first four main bullet points precede the midpoint abomination and are put first. They explain the source for the midpoint abomination and the Great Tribulation and are a match.

Next, in response to the events of the antagonists, in Revelation chapters 14, the 144,000 are mustered before the Harvest. The assumption provided in the Seal/Scroll account combined with the Olivet Discourse is validated by the order given here. This is often the case; one account will allow alternate interpretations. Only when referenced against another account, whether multiple or parallel, is an additional fact provided which clears up the ambiguity.

In the sixth Seal, John only hears the number, here we see them and we are given additional information about the 144,000. One, the Lord is standing on Mount Zion. Two, the 144,000 are assembled on Mount Zion. Three, they never leave Jesus' side, so wherever Jesus goes, so goes His Army. These are crack troops, and they help tramp out the Wrath of God as portrayed in Joel on the Day of the Lord. (Jesus' Bride is safe at home in Heaven with the Father as all good Grooms would love and protect their Bride.)

The Pre-Trib and Post-Trib schools of eschatology insist that Jesus never touches down on the earth prior to gathering the Elect from the clouds. That reading from First and Second Thessalonians takes the vision of Christ coming on the clouds as a singular event. However, Paul can omit an event and not violate the overall sequence of events.
Jesus’ return was foretold at His Ascension and in Acts 1:11, we are told that He will return as He went up. Therefore, I expect Jesus will part the night sky with the scrolling of the sky to reveal the light of Heaven, and descending upon the clouds, will touch down on the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two as described in Zechariah 14:4. This causes the second earthquake of the sixth Seal (v.14) and the twin hills are the Mount Zion of Revelation chapter 14.

The 3 Angels come before the end, just like Jesus said in Mt 24:14; the Church cannot fulfill the Great Commission. Also too, their warning to the wicked that God is coming in Wrath has them hiding in the caves in the sixth Seal before Jesus actually comes to Harvest the Elect. This explains the first writing of “wrath” in the book of Revelation at 6:16 and why the wicked, who have no discernment of God’s Plan, so plainly know it is coming nevertheless: they’re told explicitly and they got the message.

The imagery of “one like the son of man” is the third time Jesus is depicted on the clouds of Heaven gathering the Elect in the Bible. First foretold in the Olivet Discourse, (and the second time some years later is included in Paul’s very first letter to the Churches: 1st Thessalonians 4:16-17) this third mention by John matches previous two bullet points showing Jesus coming on the clouds and gathering the Elect. Both accounts intersect and will be combined on this common event.

The final portion of chapter 14 has two avenging Angels. The first supplies the Blood present on the Day of the Lord Wrath. The second has charge of the fire. Fire is another component of Old Testament Day of the Lord Wrath and it is the first element of God’s Wrath from the Trumpets. As this Wrath is to only burn a “third” of the Earth, it is “managed.” The Angel supplying Blood literally fills the Land around the “City.”

Knowing there are two battles said to be fought on the Day of the Lord in the Old Testament, one around Jerusalem and the other in the Valley of Decision, which scholars link to the Valley of Jehoshaphat around Bethlehem to the south, the city would then translate to Jerusalem, and the Land would be Israel. As blood both defiles and redeems, (a paradox preserved in the dual meaning for a single verb in the Hebrew) God is literally wreaking desolation and in turn, washing the Holy Land of the sin that had been present.

The aspect having Redemption being immediately followed by Wrath in a reading of Revelation chapter 14 follows the example in the broad overview of the end in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4-11. There, the first Trumpet of God’s Wrath follows within an hour of the Great Multitude arriving in Heaven. This aspect of Rescue/Wrath which emerges in both accounts marries as well with the descriptive verse of this time from Jesus in the Olivet Discourse with the example of Noah and Lot who were both rescued and then immediately God’s Wrath rained down.

This distinction marks this eschatology as what is commonly called: Pre-Wrath.
The aspect of Rescue/Wrath both fall on the Day of the Lord. So, I'm going to indent those events which I think occur with the Day of the Lord starting with the Sun/moon/star event and call the whole series the "Day of the Lord." The two-fold nature of this day can be seen in prophecy with one of foreboding and clouds, while the other half is full of fire, smoke and blood. Those visions can be played out in literally two days just like Rosh ha-Shanah is a two-day Holy Day. Rosh ha-Shanah starts with the Last Trumpet, and begins a Festival of Trumpets. That figurative analogy is seen here literally.

Revelation 6:12-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13)

The first real match of a specific and unique event we have is with the sixth Seal, so I'm going to pick up the action there in the Seal/Scroll chronology of chapters 4 through 11 (minus the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses found in 11:1-13) and take it to the end. Rather than replicate whole chapters starting with the sixth Seal, only an outline form of events will be presented. This is to simplify the action and concentrate on the big items first; details are important for further integration, but first the rough framework needs to be in place.

• Rev 6:12-13 - Sun/moon/star sign
• Rev 6:14 - Scrolling of the sky
• Rev 7:4-8 - “Mustering” the 144,000
• Rev 7:9-17 - Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation
• Rev 8:1 - Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal
• Rev 8:7 - First Trumpet fire and blood 1/3 of earth burned
• Rev 8:8 - Second Trumpet 1/3 of sea to blood
• Rev 8:10 - Third Trumpet 1/3 of water bitter
• Rev 8:12 - Fourth Trumpet 1/3 of light struck
• Rev 9:1-11 - Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment
• Rev 9:13-21 - Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3 of man killed
• Rev 10:1-4/Rev 11:15 - Seventh Trumpet (no desolation mentioned)
• Rev 11:19 - Earthquake

So with that bit of logic, let's put the Revelation from the sixth Seal to the end of its parallel account in chapter 11 together around the common points:

• The rise of the fourth terrible beast of a nation out of the “sea.”
.....o Worship of the beast (rebellion against God)
• Covenant with many prevailed by the Roman ruler who will come.
• Authority given (by God) to the beast of a man for one-half of the one 'seven.'
.....o He wages war against the Saints.
.....o We are to endure patiently (remember Rev 3:10 and John 17:15)
.....o Rise of the false prophet with miracles and 'fire from the sky.'
• Armies surround Jerusalem.
• Midpoint Abomination Erection of the talking image of the anti-Christ
.....o Two laws which make the Great Tribulation the worst time ever for the Church in terms of persecution.
.....o Great Tribulation.
• Sun/moon/star event Day of the LORD.
.....o Scrolling of the sky = sign of the Son of Man
.....o Jesus touches down upon the earth.
.....o Mustering the 144,000 assembled on Mount Zion.
.....o 3 Angels fulfill the Great Commission / Warn the wicked
.....o Son of Man coming on the clouds.
.....o Harvest Redemption / Gathering Elect from the clouds.
.....o Great Multitude arrives in Heaven out of the Great Tribulation.
.....o Scroll opened with breaking of seventh Seal.
.....o First Trumpet fire and blood – 1/3rd of earth burned
.......... Avenging Angels – supplying Blood and managing the Fire.
• Second Trumpet - 1/3rd of sea to blood
• Third Trumpet - 1/3rd of water bitter
• Fourth Trumpet - 1/3rd of light struck
• Fifth Trumpet Abyss opened 5 months torment.
• Sixth Trumpet WWIII - 1/3rd of man killed
• Seventh Trumpet
.....o First Bowl - Sores on Man
.....o Second Bowl - All sea to blood
.....o Third Bowl - All water to blood
.....o Fourth Bowl - Seared by heat
.....o Fifth Bowl - Satan's kingdom in the dark
.....o Sixth Bowl - Way for the King of the East - Battle at Armageddon N/S/E
.......... Two Witnesses die from Demon from Abyss.
.....o Seventh Bowl –
.......... end with desolations poured out on the Roman desolator
.......... Earth changing earthquake.

Notice that every sequence order from each original list remains intact! No shuffling of facts is required. While students of other eschatologies might balk at how I define meaning for various words (confirm, midpoint abomination, Elect, etc.) deep interpretation is not required to blend Scripture –as it is worded– into this sequence of events. The fact that each individual account’s sequence remains intact, then verifies the
correct ordering of the whole.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, You've done a pretty good job at presenting your idea of the end times and the majority of it does seem to preserve the pre-wrath viewpoint, however, while I believe pre-wrath brings us a few steps closer to understanding the end-times, I don't, as a pre-wrather, believe it is the "end all and be all" of biblical prophecy. There are still many gaps that aren't revealed and no one, including myself, can safely say we know all there is to know about end-times prophecy. There are a few areas in which I view things a little differently but instead of tackling them all at once, let's just go through things one at a time.

Your words: "[SIZE=12pt]Previously the seventh Trumpet announcement was broken off in the previous Seal/Scroll chronology in Revelation chapter 10 when John is told not to write and only later summed up with no details of the desolations it ensues being revealed whatsoever. So now God shows to John what he didn't write about in the Seal/Scroll chronology: the desolations of the third Woe. They are all of the first "thirds" Trumpet Judgments but now - they're total. The depth of God’s Wrath is displayed in the third Woe."[/SIZE]

If you're saying that when John didn't record what the seven thunders said in cp. 10 but he reveals it later with the description of the third woe and equating them with the bowl judgements; then I must disagree on two levels. I believe what the seven thunders said has yet to be revealed.

First, how do you equate anything the seven thunders said, with anything else written in Revelation? Where's the connecting point? Secondly, the bowl judgments in my opinion have zero to do with the third woe. Here is my reason why I believe that"

[SIZE=12pt]Rev. 8:13 - " And I beheld, and heard an angel flying through the midst of heaven, saying with a loud voice, Woe, woe, woe, to the inhabiters of the earth [/SIZE]by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, which are yet to sound!"

The first woe is the 5th trump as found in Rev.9:12 - "One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter."

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

Now if we were to go in order it would seem that the 7th trump would be the third woe! IT IS NOT! I had always believed it made sense and never really considered anything else.

However, the third woe ( the last time a woe is mentioned in Revelations ) is found in Rev. 12:12 - " Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This third and final time a woe is mentioned is connected to the originating verse, Rev. 8:13 by the highlighted phrase. Since this is the case, shortly after this verse we find in Rev. 12:14 - "And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent."

As we all know the highlighted phrase means 3 1/2 yrs. So here is the inescapable conclusion. At least the first six trumpet judgments must be concluded before the middle of the 70th week.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

If you're saying that when John didn't record what the seven thunders said in cp. 10 but he reveals it later with the description of the third woe and equating them with the bowl judgements; then I must disagree on two levels. I believe what the seven thunders said has yet to be revealed.

One thing at a time.

Yes, I am saying that.

The interlude in the broad overview of the end which God the Father presents through Jesus to John (let's get the order right: this doesn't come from just John) - marks a break in the enumeration of God's Wrath as it pertains to the Trumpets. John was an obedient servant, and he doesn't write anything that would give us a clue about what the seven thunders say - which I agree has yet to be revealed. That God chooses in another vision of the end, set in parallel to the Seal/Scroll chronology is to make up for John's absolute obedience which reveals important events which do come at the end of the one 'seven.' Had it been the Bowls which the seven thunders spoke - they would not be revealed, nor would John have recorded them a second time.

The interlude of chapter 10 leads to the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:1-13. In this compact rendering of the one 'seven' we see both halves and two events associated with it. Without going into detail here, I will say that I have concluded by way of other Scripture that indeed the way the two subjects are presented are fulfilled 1-2 in the first and second half of the one 'seven' respectively. The Temple is first half; the Two Witnesses occupy the second half of the one 'seven.'

First, how do you equate anything the seven thunders said, with anything else written in Revelation? Where's the connecting point?

Because John tells us it comes right before the seventh Angel with the seventh Trumpet is about to sound.

Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

So we know the seven thunders are associated with it; that is the connection.

Secondly, the bowl judgments in my opinion have zero to do with the third woe. Here is my reason why I believe that" [SIZE=12pt]Rev. 8:13 [/SIZE] Rev.9:12

Those verses are both true but do not change Rev 10:7.

The second woe is after the 6th trump and after the Jerusalem earthquake that destroys a tenth of the city and kills 7000 ( Rev.11:13) . Rev. 11:14 - "The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly."

I disagree with your division of Revelation's parallel accounts.

Revelation 11:13 is parallel to the end of the one 'seven' as presented in Revelation 11:19 and 16:17.

Rev 11:13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Rev 11:19 And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

Rev 16:18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty. 19 The great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, *came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague *was extremely severe.

These verses, in my opinion, all describe the end of the one 'seven'.

The first is from the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses Rev 11:1-13.
The second is from the Seal/Scroll chronology of Rev chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).
The third is from the detailed account of the Rise and Fall of the Anti-Christ in the one 'seven' in Rev chapters 13-16 (inclusive).

These three references all describe the Great Earthquake which reshapes the earth to its Millennial form (in my opinion, again).
One of the ways we can tell we're dealing with parallel accounts in Revelation is repeated information. Like the 5 times the one half of the one 'seven' is mentioned, there are 3 times this great earthquake is mentioned, and they all come at the end of their respective accounts.

I look for a change of both scene and focus to discern breaks in the narrative which indicate breaks between parallel accounts in Revelation. Rev 11:14 is John resetting the stage, so to speak, to go back to what he had previously written and so conclude the matter without telling us anything about the third Woe.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, Your words: "Because John tells us it comes right before the seventh Angel with the seventh Trumpet is about to sound.

Rev 10:7 but in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, then the mystery of God is finished, as He preached to His servants the prophets.

So we know the seven thunders are associated with it; that is the connection."

I don't think this verse is saying anything about the sequence of events but it is telling us that just before the 7th angel sounds, the "times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." That Gentiles were also going to be allowed to enter the pathway of salvation is what the "mystery of God" is!

Eph. 3:3-6 - "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:"

Your words: The interlude of chapter 10 leads to the sidebar account of the Temple and the Two Witnesses in Revelation 11:1-13. In this compact rendering of the one 'seven' we see both halves and two events associated with it. Without going into detail here, I will say that I have concluded by way of other Scripture that indeed the way the two subjects are presented are fulfilled 1-2 in the first and second half of the one 'seven' respectively. The Temple is first half; the Two Witnesses occupy the second half of the one 'seven."

I believe that John wrote down what he saw in the order it was given so I don’t see Cp. 10 as an interlude, just what John was shown after the 6th angel sounded.

Regarding Rev. 11:3,19 and 16:12 your words: “These verses, in my opinion, all describe the end of the one 'seven'.”

I don’t see them as a single earthquake at all but as three separate events. Matt. 24:7, Mark 13:8 and Luke 21:11 all use the plural “earthquakes”. Matt. 27:54 mentions an earthquake, Matt. 28:2 and Acts 16:26 both describe a “great” earthquake. They are not the same events. Considering that in 2013 there were 1,545 earthquakes with a greater than 5.0 magnitude, it shouldn’t be a far stretch to assume multiple large scale earthquakes would occur due to asteroid impacts upon the earth. So I believe there will be at least five major ones, along with thousands of minor ones occurring with the context of the 70th week, your three plus the ones in Rev. 6:12 and 8:5.

While I agree there are sidebars within Revelations, I don’t really see any parallel accounts of sequential events as you described, in it. Of course there are different events that may be happening at the same time as others but I don’t consider them parallel, just additional info.

Your words: “The Temple is first half; the Two Witnesses occupy the second half of the one 'seven.”

Respectfully, I don’t agree with this break-down at all. Historically, prophets come before major events to offer warnings of things to come. It wouldn’t be logical, imo, for them to arrive after several significant earth shaking events have occurred. I know that pre-wrath believes they will replace the church as a witness after the rapture but I don’t agree with that scenario.

I’m not convinced that there is a first half, second half type of division of the 70th week. I know the numbers like 1260 days, etc. make a pretty mathematical picture but the bible never uses the terms “in the first half” or “in the latter half”, that is all man’s division of time. If we go with the proscribed 2520 days than there are events that would, logically, be considered to occur in the latter half, but we aren’t given anything specific regarding the first half and in my opinion we would be, IF we are to divide the 70th week that way.

One of the key things to recognize is that verses like Rom. 11:25 – “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

is completely separate from Rev. 11:2 – “ But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

They are two different events occurring at separate times.

I also want to thank you for this study. While reading your post and preparing my response, Rev. 10:7 provided a key concept to my personal studies and understanding of end-times events. It was part of the “puzzle” that I’ve been looking for and our discussion has been an answer to prayer, so again, thank you.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Trekson: There are two earthquakes on the Day of the Lord and this is revealed with the opening of the sixth Seal.

12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

This reveals the following sequence of events:

• The earthquake from Hag 2:6, repeated in Heb 12:26-27 and called for in purpose from the Psalms 125:1.
• The sun becoming dark at midday from the Olivet Discourse, Amos 8:9, Isa 50:3, and Eze 32:7.
• The reddening of the moon so it does not give "its" light.
• The stars falling (meteor shower actually)
• The scrolling of the sky which I interpret as the Sign of the Son of Man in the Olivet Discourse and Isa 34:4
• The displacing earthquake of Zechariah 14:4 which is shown again in Revelation 14:1 with the Great Multitude which also comes before the gathering from the clouds!

So there are many earthquakes, three at least, but the Great Earthquake of 11:13, 19 and 16:18-20 is not on the Day of the Lord, but at the end of the one 'seven.'

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, Your words: "There are two earthquakes on the Day of the Lord and this is revealed with the opening of the sixth Seal."

Well, this may be a reason as to why we see things differently. Am I correct in assuming you view the Day of the Lord as a single day?

I believe the Day of the Lord begins with the opening of the 7th seal and extends all the way through the end of the millennium. A literal interpretation of the verse "a day with the Lord is as a thousand years". From various OT prophecies regarding the "day" or "in that day", it's obvious to me that the Day of the Lord is a multi-themed event expanding a little over a thousand years. All the trumpets, all the bowls, Armageddon, the sheep and goat judgments, and the lion laying down with the lamb, etc. are all parts of the Day of the Lord. It begins with wrath and judgement and ends with wrath and judgment with a thousand years of peace in between, imo.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The one day equals a thousand years has more to do with the Millennial being the Sabbath thousand than stretching the Day of the Lord into a thousand years in my opinion.

You can believe what you want, but Joel 2:31 dictates that the sun/moon/star sign precedes the Day of the Lord.

Paul also pegs our being gathered to Jesus as being on the Day of the Lord in 2Th 2:1-2.

Likewise, after the sun/moon/star sign given by Jesus in Mt 24:29, we see the "sign" of the Son of Man, and then the gathering of the Elect in verse 31.

This marries nicely with the Sixth Seal events in the broad overview of the end-times as a whole in Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

Likewise, in another parallel account in Revelation, the second earthquake can be equated to Zec 14:4, which fulfills Acts 1:11 with Jesus ON the earth in Revelation 14:1. Notice this happens BEFORE the same gathering mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:31) in Revelation 14:14-16, and just as Paul tells us in 1Th 3 and 4, Jesus is coming on the clouds to get us when He does this.

So this great multitude of Saints is then found in Heaven with the sixth Seal.

So I think the Day of the Lord begins at the sixth Seal, not the seventh as you believe.
_____________________________________

Likewise, the two battles fought on the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament - which reveals what is in store for the Jews left behind (SoS 5:2-6) - can be fought in a single day. This is repeated often in OT prophecy, as being a single day, most likely because of the impossibility that that could go on for a thousand years - I see it as a single day.

Now if we combine the Harvest to that as happening at night and the battles on the following day - it can all happen in a day!

If we want the gathering of the Elect to happen at night around the world, then that would extend the Day of the Lord to two days, and it would be very much Rosh ha-Shannah which is also two-days in length as the "unknown day" (singular) which is then thought of as 'one long day' - and you could still legitimately (within the culture of the authors) still call it a single day. (This goes against our technical grain so much people actually get angry with any such suggestion - which doesn't prove me wrong, but does illustrate our cultural bias for exacting definition of words which strains a gnat but swallows an elephant at times.)
______________________________________

So we differ in quite a few ways... I didn't have time to post the other differences from the post before this one.

It is not so important that we differ, but I enjoy seeing where the split is. I evaluate the other side and see if there is reason enough to change my perspective. Sometimes, a couple of times at least, I've had to reassess my position. Most times, I am comfortable with my position and I just note how someone else can draw a completely different idea from the same text.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, I'm in the middle of replying to post #7 but you made this statement:

"Likewise, the two battles fought on the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament - which reveals what is in store for the Jews left behind (SoS 5:2-6) - can be fought in a single day. This is repeated often in OT prophecy, as being a single day, most likely because of the impossibility that that could go on for a thousand years - I see it as a single day."

So, a couple of questions. First, can you list with the scriptural references what "two' battles you're speaking of and secondly, what in the world does the Song of Solomon, have to do with anything prophetic??

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

First, can you list with the scriptural references what "two' battles you're speaking of and secondly, what in the world does the Song of Solomon, have to do with anything prophetic??

1.)
Joel 2:1 specifies that Jerusalem, solitary in the world for encompassing God's Holy Mount, Mount Moriah, or the Temple Mount is figured prominently at the very first. Through chapter 2, Joel witnesses God's Army, and I will insert that the 144,000 never leave Jesus' side from Revelation 14:4, advancing with fire and burning everything to ruin, climbing over walls and through windows like a thief. This consuming fire before God's Army is not a CME, but is provided by the sounding Angel with the first Trumpet.

Van Kampen wrote extensively about the second battle in Joel 3; the valley of Jehoshaphat, or the valley of decision, as being related to the area around Bethlehem where some ancient battles were fought.

"In Old Testament times, however, no valley was called Jehoshaphat, so Joel may therefore have been referring to the valley of Beracah located about six miles southwest of Bethlehem, where King Jehoshaphat of Judah successfully fought against the forces of Ammon, Moab, and Mount Seir (See 2 Chron 20:20-29)." The Sign of Christ's Coming and the End of the Age - Robert Van Kampen, Crossway Books, third edition 2000, pg 290.

This makes sense since Jesus here is battling not only the Israelis who mount the defense of the city, but the occupying Northern Army! I propose that they supply most of the blood... In another fashion, the previous hours had seen Jesus split the Mount of Olives in two, and Zechariah prophesied that some of the Jews (the second part of the Remnant) would flee Jerusalem through that newly cleft valley. In going to the wilderness to join the first part of the Remnant Jews who previously fled Judah before the Great Tribulation started, they would then turn south. This second battle then may be a rearguard action against the other nations who would be pursuing these fleeing refugees.

2.)
I read one author, whose work I have lost who pointed me in that direction. Another author has done an excellent job of describing the Song of Solomon as a six-personage play. Remember, the whole of Scripture (OT) is about Christ, Jesus said, and I like this take on this book. In this respect, we can see how the Jews "miss" Jesus when He returns (the latter rain) in the Fall appointed time: Rosh ha-Shannah.

http://bobtheberean.blogspot.com/2014/09/song-of-solomon-christ-calls-his-bride.html

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Marcus.

The one day equals a thousand years has more to do with the Millennial being the Sabbath thousand than stretching the Day of the Lord into a thousand years in my opinion.

You can believe what you want, but Joel 2:31 dictates that the sun/moon/star sign precedes the Day of the Lord.

Paul also pegs our being gathered to Jesus as being on the Day of the Lord in 2Th 2:1-2.

Likewise, after the sun/moon/star sign given by Jesus in Mt 24:29, we see the "sign" of the Son of Man, and then the gathering of the Elect in verse 31.

This marries nicely with the Sixth Seal events in the broad overview of the end-times as a whole in Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).

Likewise, in another parallel account in Revelation, the second earthquake can be equated to Zec 14:4, which fulfills Acts 1:11 with Jesus ON the earth in Revelation 14:1. Notice this happens BEFORE the same gathering mentioned by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:31) in Revelation 14:14-16, and just as Paul tells us in 1Th 3 and 4, Jesus is coming on the clouds to get us when He does this.

So this great multitude of Saints is then found in Heaven with the sixth Seal.

So I think the Day of the Lord begins at the sixth Seal, not the seventh as you believe.
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Likewise, the two battles fought on the Day of the Lord from the Old Testament - which reveals what is in store for the Jews left behind (SoS 5:2-6) - can be fought in a single day. This is repeated often in OT prophecy, as being a single day, most likely because of the impossibility that that could go on for a thousand years - I see it as a single day.

Now if we combine the Harvest to that as happening at night and the battles on the following day - it can all happen in a day!

If we want the gathering of the Elect to happen at night around the world, then that would extend the Day of the Lord to two days, and it would be very much Rosh ha-Shannah which is also two-days in length as the "unknown day" (singular) which is then thought of as 'one long day' - and you could still legitimately (within the culture of the authors) still call it a single day. (This goes against our technical grain so much people actually get angry with any such suggestion - which doesn't prove me wrong, but does illustrate our cultural bias for exacting definition of words which strains a gnat but swallows an elephant at times.)
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So we differ in quite a few ways... I didn't have time to post the other differences from the post before this one.

It is not so important that we differ, but I enjoy seeing where the split is. I evaluate the other side and see if there is reason enough to change my perspective. Sometimes, a couple of times at least, I've had to reassess my position. Most times, I am comfortable with my position and I just note how someone else can draw a completely different idea from the same text.

Have you considered that the 1000-year Day of the Lord IS that which is called the Millennium?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Have you considered that the 1000-year Day of the Lord IS that which is called the Millennium?

Yes, I considered your idea long enough to think of a few things associated with the Day of the Lord which will not go on for one thousand years. Not every day is a thousand years in the Bible.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, Here's my response to the first half of post #7. The rest will probably take a while as I started studying one thing, which led me to another and then another, whew, it's going on and on!

Your words: “You can believe what you want, but Joel 2:31 dictates that the sun/moon/star sign precedes the Day of the Lord.”

I agree, but the key word is “precedes”. Yes, they herald that the Day is soon to arrive, not that the Day begins with those signs.

Your words: “Paul also pegs our being gathered to Jesus as being on the Day of the Lord in 2Th 2:1-2.”

I agree here as well.

Your words: “Likewise, after the sun/moon/star sign given by Jesus in Mt 24:29, we see the "sign" of the Son of Man, and then the gathering of the Elect in verse 31.”

Again, we agree.

Your words: “This marries nicely with the Sixth Seal events in the broad overview of the end-times as a whole in Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13).”

Okay, now here is where I get a little confused. I see no “broad overview” in Rev. 4-11. Rev. 4 & 5 have nothing to do with the 70th week. All the events as recorded in Rev. 6 and Matt. 24:1-26, including the great trib, happen before the Day of the Lord begins! The great trib, imo, is not at the “mid-point” but begins probably around the fourth seal! Rev. 7 occurs between the signs of the 6th seal and the actual start of the Day of the Lord. Once the 7th seal is opened, the Day of the Lord begins and continues through cps. 8 &9, cp. 10 is what John sees as the 6th trump is occurring and has nothing to do with anything that happened previously. Rev. 11 is a “sidebar” account fleshing out in more detail other events that have been going on within the seals and trumpets, just as Rev. 13 is giving us more detail on the a/c who has been around since the beginning of the 70th week. The great earthquake in Rev. 11 is just the ending of the 6th trump/second woe. So far, imo, nothing has “paralleled” anything. It’s been all sequential.