Romans 11:25-27. New prophecy about the future or old prophecy about an ongoing reality?

[Spiritual Israelite]

No. He was born to Mary.

If Jesus is not God then how was He able to forgive sins?

Mark 2:4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” 6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 “Why does this fellow talk like that? He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?”

If Jesus is not God, then why didn't he tell Thomas that after Thomas called Him "my God"?

John 20:27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” 28 Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The word "worship" simply means "bow the knee." Happens everyday.

Where does scripture say it is okay for us to worship/bow the knee to anyone but God?

 

[Truth7t7]

That's what the Bible says. He was born to the virgin Mary.

I have been reading your claims, you deny the deity of Jesus Christ, now you claim he didn't exist prior to the Virgin birth, suggesting he is a human created being, it appears that you have wandered into the realm of heresy IMO

 

[covenantee]

The phrase "the fulness" is another phrase Paul coined, which indicates the entire body of those whom God will save throughout all history. Paul is saying that everyone who was saved by God, is saved by God and who will be saved by God will be "in Him" bodily or corporately. Paul is talking about the entire group of believers down through history taken as a whole, unified and combined into one body. He isn't talking about Jesus' own physical body.

Please render Colossians 2:9 for us, substituting all of your foregoing interpretations.

Without claiming that every believer is (a) God.

But if that is in fact what you believe, then don't hesitate to express it.

 

[Timtofly]

LOL. You read all the posts in the discussion, didn't you? How can you not know? Obviously, the contradiction is that you considered the flood, a global destruction event, an act of God's grace and mercy, but said that Him destroying the earth with fire in the future would not be Him showing grace and mercy.

That is not what I posted. That is your interpretation of the discussion. I said all who were judged died in the Flood. The discussion of grace and mercy was not about the Flood. That was WPM avoiding the point I made in another post. So what was the original point made, since all you have given is a rabbit hole?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Christ existed before Bethlehem. He was the eternal Son of God, and therefore before David. Jesus testified in John 6:62, “ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before.” The Lord testified in John 8:58, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus declared, in His great intercessory petition to His Father, in John 17:5, “And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

If you didn't already affirm the doctrine of pre-existence, I don't think you would agree that these verses speak to that doctrine.

Consider John 17:5, for instance. Set aside the doctrine of pre-existence for a minute and see what Jesus might have meant in context.

John 17:4-5
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

In verse 4, Jesus says that he glorified the father on earth. What does this mean? Jesus elevated the Father before the people; he honored the Father before the people, he enlightened the people concerning the father, he respected the father, worshipped the father, spoke truthfully about the father, and blessed the father. That is how Jesus glorified the father.

Jesus is asking that God glorify him in return. Coming from another man, this petition would be audacious and disrespectful except for the fact that the Father predestined Jesus to that role from before the foundation of the earth. Jesus is praying for something that the Father was going to do for him anyway. In essence, Jesus is asking that he be resurrected to the right hand of the Father, which is a high place of honor. In that way, the father will glorify the son.

Jesus isn't asking for a glory he had before he was born. He is asking to be glorified in the manner to which he was predestined before the foundation of the earth.

 

[WPM]

If you didn't already affirm the doctrine of pre-existence, I don't think you would agree that these verses speak to that doctrine.

Consider John 17:5, for instance. Set aside the doctrine of pre-existence for a minute and see what Jesus might have meant in context.

John 17:4-5
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

In verse 4, Jesus says that he glorified the father on earth. What does this mean? Jesus elevated the Father before the people; he honored the Father before the people, he enlightened the people concerning the father, he respected the father, worshipped the father, spoke truthfully about the father, and blessed the father. That is how Jesus glorified the father.

Jesus is asking that God glorify him in return. Coming from another man, this petition would be audacious and disrespectful except for the fact that the Father predestined Jesus to that role from before the foundation of the earth. Jesus is praying for something that the Father was going to do for him anyway. In essence, Jesus is asking that he be resurrected to the right hand of the Father, which is a high place of honor. In that way, the father will glorify the son.

Jesus isn't asking for a glory he had before he was born. He is asking to be glorified in the manner to which he was predestined before the foundation of the earth.

Not so. Wrong again. Anything to support your Unitarianism. You have rendered text after text meaningless in order to support your heresy and blasphemy. These texts prove the deity of Christ. He is talking about a real relationship He had with His Father before Bethlehem and He is talking about real authority He possessed before Bethlehem and before Abraham. This exposes your error.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Wrong again. More heresy!

The New Testament narrative, in John 1:1-5, says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”

What does the original Greek say?

theós eén ho Lógos

This literally reads: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and God was the Word”

Verse 10-14 continues, “He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."

This passage shows, in unmistakable language, that “the Word” is Christ.

John is not suggesting that Jesus formerly existed as an abstract concept. John's preamble is purposely reminiscent of Genesis the first chapter, where we understand that God spoke everything into existence. The phrase "in the beginning was the word" is very suggestive of the phrase "God said let there be light." Everything that came into being was spoken into existence. Thus, John says "in the beginning was the word." By God's word everything comes into being.

From Genesis we learn about Gods method of creation. Everything that came into being began as an abstract concept in the mind of God, having no physical or spatial constraints because it had no representation in the physical world. It does not exist at a particular time or place until God speaks it into existence.

From John we learn God's purpose for creation. History has a telos, a goal which God set for it. Everything that happens, happens for a reason according to the plan and script God designed. In the beginning the script was with God, i.e. in the mind of God. All things came into being according to that script and nothing came into being apart from the script. In God's purpose was life and life was the light of men.

Jesus is that abstract concept, that plan, that script brought into the physical word. Jesus is a man, born to Mary.

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Yes, there is but one God, the Father. Jesus is not the Father; he is the Lord.

Ephesians 3:9 tells us: “And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ.”

The "dia" here should be translated "in view of" God created all things in view of Jesus Christ. Remember, John said that God creates everything according to a plan. And Jesus Christ is located at the center of his plan.

You, unitarians, JWs, and Mormons among others turn the man Jesus into one of the greatest phonies this world has ever known. First God creates the world then Jesus comes along 4,000 years later and claims to have created the world. I mean: hello!!!

You have all the symptoms of Rumpelstiltskin syndrome, believing that you can control someone by guessing his name. You guessed wrong. I am not a Unitarian, JW, or Mormon.

 

[WPM]

John is not suggesting that Jesus formerly existed as an abstract concept. John's preamble is purposely reminiscent of Genesis the first chapter, where we understand that God spoke everything into existence. The phrase "in the beginning was the word" is very suggestive of the phrase "God said let there be light." Everything that came into being was spoken into existence. Thus, John says "in the beginning was the word." By God's word everything comes into being.

From Genesis we learn about Gods method of creation. Everything that came into being began as an abstract concept in the mind of God, having no physical or spatial constraints because it had no representation in the physical world. It does not exist at a particular time or place until God speaks it into existence.

From John we learn God's purpose for creation. History has a telos, a goal which God set for it. Everything that happens, happens for a reason according to the plan and script God designed. In the beginning the script was with God, i.e. in the mind of God. All things came into being according to that script and nothing came into being apart from the script. In God's purpose was life and life was the light of men.

Jesus is that abstract concept, that plan, that script brought into the physical word. Jesus is a man, born to Mary.

Yes, there is but one God, the Father. Jesus is not the Father; he is the Lord.

Jesus is not an "abstract concept." He is a person. He is divine. He is the Word. Hello! The Word was made flesh. Hello! And the Word was God. Hello! You cannot deal with that. It totally demolishes your heresy and blasphemy.

John 1:1, 2&14 says, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God … And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.”

Here we see that the Word (Christ) was “made flesh.” The Son of God became a man. He took on human flesh to identify with man and live the life he couldn’t live. Whilst the Word existed “in the beginning with God” it was manifested physically in the person of Jesus Christ.

As the son of man Christ was born in Bethlehem, but as the Son of God He always existed.'

Jesus said in John 10:30, “I and my Father are one.”

They were one in nature, one in essence, one in heart, one in perfection, and one in power.

Yes, there is but one God, the Father. Jesus is not the Father; he is the Lord.

I Corinthians 8:6 says: “there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

Read the text: all things exist through and by Jesus Christ the Son of God. The inspired text refutes your claims. He is Lord, meaning God. He carries sovereign authority and dominion over all creation and every creature. That is because he is the Creator. In Acts 10:36 Paul significantly said of “Jesus Christ,” that “he is Lord of all.”

The "dia" here should be translated "in view of" God created all things in view of Jesus Christ. Remember, John said that God creates everything according to a plan. And Jesus Christ is located at the center of his plan.

This is a common trait performed by the cults when engaging with them. They change the original words to mean the opposite to what they are. They butcher the original language. The Greek word dia is actually a primary preposition denoting: "the channel of an act" (Strong's). Jesus was the channel whom the Father worked through. He was the Creator. How do you sleep at night knowing you are going to have to face Jesus some day and account for twisting the Word of God and deceiving people?

Hebrews 1:2 &10 says, “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom (or dia hos) also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands.”

Firstly, as Strong’s correctly explains: the word dia (which is rightly interpreted “by” here) is “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act.” In the case we are looking at it tells us that it was through the channel or agency of the “Son” that God “made the worlds.” This is clear and simple for those that don’t need to reinterpret it. The word hos (rendered “whom”) is simply “the relatively (sometimes demonstrative) pronoun, who, which, what, that.” There is absolutely no ground to negate the meaning of the commonly used Greek words. They show what repeated Scripture tells us that Jesus is God/Creator.

Finally, the word for “made” here is the popular Greek word poieo which simply and consistently means ‘to make or do’. These verses show the pre-existence of Christ the Son of God the Creator.

This is the only time in the Bible that this word is found.

The phrase “express image” derives from the lone Greek word charakter which means what it says: “character.” Christ is “the brightness of” God’s “glory” and the “charakter of his person.” Christ is the physical manifestation or representation of the invisible God. He is indeed the “express image” of Almighty God. Jesus is God. God physically is expressed in the person of Christ.

Hebrews 2:9-10 declares: “we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings."

Revelation 3:14 declares: “And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.”

The designation “faithful and true” belongs to Christ. We see that in the depiction of the Second Coming in Revelation 19:11: “And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.”

Revelation 4:10-11 declares: “The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

You have all the symptoms of Rumpelstiltskin syndrome, believing that you can control someone by guessing his name. You guessed wrong. I am not a Unitarian, JW, or Mormon.

You are indeed a Unitarian. Stop denying it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What is your translation of Colossians 2:9?

I am convinced that θεότητος, which comes from θεότης, simply means God. I could be wrong. This word is only used once in the New Testament, and only once or twice in other Greek Literature. It doesn't mean "Godhead" as some suppose. Rather, many scholars believe it refers to "deity", or "the state of being God." (whatever that means.) And it is very important to know that the word is not an adjective, indicating the attribute of deity.

Let's look at the NASB translation:

For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

This isn't a bad translation, but it requires a bit of explanation. First, as I say, the word is a noun, not an adjective. So the translation should read "the fullness of the deity dwells in bodily form." Paul has one particular deity in mind, i.e. God the father. Essentially, if this translation is what Paul meant to say, the focus is on the "being" of God, not the attributes of God. Jesus is God in bodily form. And we would be mistaken to assume Paul means to say that Jesus has divine qualities dwelling in himself. A lot of things have divine qualities, but Paul's point is that Jesus shares identity with the Father.

As I say, the word θεότης connotes "the state of being God" If this is what Paul meant to say, he might be saying something like "In Jesus, dwells the fulness of being the God in bodily form." This idea IS taught elsewhere in the Bible. Paul himself says that Jesus, the man, is the exact representation of God's nature. But the fulness of being the God not only refers to his nature, it refers to his identity. When the Bible teaches us that Jesus is God, it isn't referring to the "what" of God; it refers to the "who" of God. With respect to the "what", Jesus is a man. But with respect to the "who" Jesus is the exact representation of God as expressed through the medium of humanity.

All of that having been said, I observed that Paul has coined the term "In him" to represent the state of being in covenant with Jesus Christ, as his students, his friends, and his subjects. Those in him are sealed by the Holy Spirit, children of God, and are fellow heirs with Christ. Paul's phrase "in him" is short hand for all of that.

If this is what Paul meant by "In him all the fullness . . . dwells", then Paul is focused on the state of being associated with Jesus Christ. And elsewhere Paul coined the term "the fullness" to represent all believers who ever existed down through time. For instance, this seems to be his meaning in the first chapter where he says, "
Colossians 1:18-20

18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.​

In that context, Paul seems to suggest that "the body", "the church" and "the fullness" are synonymous terms. All three roughly point to the same group of people.

In the following passage, Paul explicitly defines "the fullness" in terms of his body.
Ephesians 1:22-23

22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.​

The body of Christ is the full compliment of every believer who ever lived. This would include believers such as Daniel and Moses.

If this is what Paul meant, then the translation might read something like this:
For in Him [all the believers given to him by the Deity] dwells bodily [or corporately]

Anyway, I hope this was helpful.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Are you a Unitarian?

No I am not a unitarian.

 

[WPM]

No I am not a unitarian.

What is your church called? Where is their statement of faith? How many members do you have?

 

[CadyandZoe]

2320 [e]
Theotētos
Θεότητος
Deity
N-GFS

That is the Greek word in Colossians 2:9.

In no Scripture does it refer to royalty.

You got the wrong word. Theos is a different word than Theotetos.

One place where "theos" doesn't refer to the Father in heaven, is John 10:34 where Jesus quotes a Psalm. That Psalm refers to royalty as "gods". theoi (plural for theos)

 

[CadyandZoe]

More heresy. You cherry pick two words that relate to us being "in Christ" and use them to dismiss Jesus being "the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” These are 2 completely different things.

Look I understand that you have trouble with languages. Some people are good with math, some people are good with words. I am not twisting scripture. I am demystifying it. I am excising creedal tumor. Don't worry, it only hurts for awhile.

 

[covenantee]

I am convinced that θεότητος, which comes from θεότης, simply means God. I could be wrong. This word is only used once in the New Testament, and only once or twice in other Greek Literature. It doesn't mean "Godhead" as some suppose.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2320: θεότης

θεότης, θεότητος, ἡ (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine (de civ. Dei 7, 1)), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9.


What compelling counter-evidence do you have?

 

[CadyandZoe]

So, what is the word for worship in the Old Testament and New Testament?

Trick question?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What does "God incarnate" mean to you?

What does incarnate mean to you?

 

[WPM]

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 2320: θεότης

θεότης, θεότητος, ἡ (deitas, Tertullian, Augustine (de civ. Dei 7, 1)), deity i. e. the state of being God, Godhead: Colossians 2:9.


What compelling counter-evidence do you have?

His answer comes from the Unitarian Theology Manual: "I am convinced."

 

[WPM]

What does incarnate mean to you?

Answer the question, and stop playing games.

 

[WPM]

Trick question?

Answer the question, and stop playing games.