Salvation loss. Is it possible?

[ScottA]

"Since the Lord redeemed man through the crucifixion, we've been forgiven of all of our sins. And as we are no longer sinners, we are justified by our faith. So as long as we endure till the end, we'll be saved, and be raptured directly into the kingdom of heaven when He returns. Is this common viewpoint correct or not?

No, it is not.

Not that we need to understand, but we also need not be ignorant of the truth: We are saved by belief in God and the Son of God, which is faith. Or by knowledge, which is not faith, but comes directly from God. But "the end" is not the end of our life on earth, it is the end of ourselves, for which He said, "If we can receive it." Therefore, if we believe, but do not receive all that He has "finished", then for lack of faith we cannot say as He said, that "Today is the day of salvation." Thus, we are left to ourselves to "wait upon the Lord"...which was given to those before the coming of the Christ, not those after. In which case, we disqualify ourselves, not for all, but for many good works.

As for His return and that which many refer to as the "rapture", If we believe in Him, but not in what He has said, that, "Surely I am coming quickly” and "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you" and "lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age” - then you do not believe as you should, but believe another gospel, of which you have been warned. Nor have you believed that which was preached to the gentiles, that each [individually] comes "in his own order."

Many people think we can enter the kingdom of heaven simply because our sins were forgiven. But this is a grave misunderstanding. This is purely man's imagination. The Lord Jesus has forgiven our sins. That's true. But He never said this forgiveness meant being purified, and allowed directly into the kingdom of heaven. No one can deny this fact.

On the contrary:

John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

2 Peter 1:9
For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 15:8-9
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The answer is easy, but you make it difficult.

First, I do not deny that "Jesus rose from the dead BODILY." But your own words have told you what you have not reckoned with... Yes, He rose from the dead bodily, as you say, which was in the world - but He also ascended into heaven, meaning that He went to the Father (as He said), whom is only spirit.

But why would you say there is no hope in becoming One with God, just as Christ has? Indeed, there is no hope in the flesh which is under the curse of death, but rather in God (whom is spirit). This is the very essence of the good news of the gospel, that we may be born again of the spirit of God, and live.

So, when you ask for chapter and verse, it is not enough. The answer is many books. But if you do not have the faith to see it in these few verses, it is because you have not eyes to see - not because I have not given you enough already:

John 4:24
God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

John 16:28
I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father.”

John 20:17
Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’”

And the point you repeatedly FAIL to understand is that our corrupted flesh is not what will be resurrected - but a GLORIFIED physical body, just like that of Jesus (Phil. 3:27)

 

[ScottA]

And the point you repeatedly FAIL to understand is that our corrupted flesh is not what will be resurrected - but a GLORIFIED physical body, just like that of Jesus (Phil. 3:27)

Quote chapter and verse where it says "physical" body.

Until then - stop making accusations. You make yourself look bad.

 

[bbyrd009]

But He never said this forgiveness meant being purified, and allowed directly into the kingdom of heaven. No one can deny this fact.

i agree

 

[BreadOfLife]

Quote chapter and verse where it says "physical" body.
Until then - stop making accusations. You make yourself look bad.

And now I will prove you wrong so that you see the error of your ways:

Here are the verses in English:
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the BODY of our humble state into conformity with the BODY of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Now - let's go to the Greek. Notice that the word for "spirit" is not used.
The SAME word for a physical body is used to describe both the earthly body AND the glorified body.

The word used here is σομα so'-mah - and it means:
1) the body both of men or animals
1a) a dead body or corpse 1b) the living body
1b1) of animals
2) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body 3a) so in the NT of the church
3) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

A PHYSICAL BODY is what is being described here.
Case CLOSED.

 

[ScottA]

And now I will prove you wrong so that you see the error of your ways:

Here are the verses in English:
Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the BODY of our humble state into conformity with the BODY of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Now - let's go to the Greek. Notice that the word for "spirit" is not used.
The SAME word for a physical body is used to describe both the earthly body AND the glorified body.

The word used here is σομα so'-mah - and it means:
1) the body both of men or animals
1a) a dead body or corpse 1b) the living body
1b1) of animals
2) is used of a (large or small) number of men closely united into one society, or family as it were; a social, ethical, mystical body 3a) so in the NT of the church
3) that which casts a shadow as distinguished from the shadow itself

A PHYSICAL BODY is what is being described here.
Case CLOSED.

Okay...so, we have established the English and Greek use of the word "body."

Now, since you are being so thorough, please do the same for the following words:

• Parable
• Spirit
• Lamb
• Rock

...On second thought - no need. Everyone knows already that Jesus' words are spirit, He spoke in parables, God did not speak except in parables, and that Jesus is not actually a lamb (sheep) or a rock (stone matter).

So...if all this is just a matter of you interpreting things the way you see them...then the Judge can decide. I think we're good with that. Meanwhile, you have not made much of a case for the spiritual meaning of the word of God.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Okay...so, we have established the English and Greek use of the word "body."

Now, since you are being so thorough, please do the same for the following words:

• Parable
• Spirit
• Lamb
• Rock

...On second thought - no need. Everyone knows already that Jesus' words are spirit, He spoke in parables, God did not speak except in parables, and that Jesus is not actually a lamb (sheep) or a rock (stone matter).

So...if all this is just a matter of you interpreting things the way you see them...then the Judge can decide. I think we're good with that. Meanwhile, you have not made much of a case for the spiritual meaning of the word of God.

Ummmm - Jesus didn't speak ONLY in parables. He TAUGHT in parables.
He said and did MANY things that were not parabolic.

I have shown you plain and simple that the linguistic facts completely destroy your argument.
Jesus rose from the dead bodily - and he ascended to the Father - bodily.

Our glorified bodies with also be physical.
Philippians 3:20-21 testifies to this face and there is NO getting around it . . .

 

[Jun2u]

Okay...so, we have established the English and Greek use of the word "body."

Now, since you are being so thorough, please do the same for the following words:

• Parable
• Spirit
• Lamb
• Rock

...On second thought - no need. Everyone knows already that Jesus' words are spirit, He spoke in parables, God did not speak except in parables, and that Jesus is not actually a lamb (sheep) or a rock (stone matter).

So...if all this is just a matter of you interpreting things the way you see them...then the Judge can decide. I think we're good with that. Meanwhile, you have not made much of a case for the spiritual meaning of the word of God.

Touche, ScottA

And if I might offer the following scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:35-50
verse 50 - "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

John 15:3
You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

2 Peter 1:9
For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Acts 15:8-9
8 So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, 9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

wadr this just seems to confirm that forgiveness does not = kingdom of heaven, unless those vv go on to connect the dots there

 

[ScottA]

Ummmm - Jesus didn't speak ONLY in parables. He TAUGHT in parables.
He said and did MANY things that were not parabolic.

I have shown you plain and simple that the linguistic facts completely destroy your argument.
Jesus rose from the dead bodily - and he ascended to the Father - bodily.

Our glorified bodies with also be physical.
Philippians 3:20-21 testifies to this face and there is NO getting around it . . .

However, He did explain. Here it all is in one sentence (in English):

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

As for the public, worldwide, "plain and simple...linguistic facts":

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables," ...meaning anything that is public, but is not a parable...is not of God.

As for Jesus "bodily" raising from the dead and also ascending to the Father - that has been explained to you as only including the flesh in rising from the dead, but not in His ascension. And you looking only at the worldly perspective does not trump the spiritual perspective of Jesus and the Father whom are spirit.

 

[ScottA]

wadr this just seems to confirm that forgiveness does not = kingdom of heaven, unless those vv go on to connect the dots there

I believe the assertion was that "salvation did not mean purification." The verses that I quoted would indicate that it does.

As for = the kingdom of heaven...I am not sure what you mean. It does mean that those who are saved are "heirs" of the kingdom.

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe the assertion was that "salvation did not mean purification." The verses that I quoted would indicate that it does.

As for = the kingdom of heaven...I am not sure what you mean. It does mean that those who are saved are "heirs" of the kingdom.

good points. Were the Hebrews heirs of Israel, more or less, when they set off into the wilderness? The point being that heirs do not always inherit

 

[BreadOfLife]

However, He did explain. Here it all is in one sentence (in English):

John 6:63
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life.

As for the public, worldwide, "plain and simple...linguistic facts":

Mark 4:11
And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables," ...meaning anything that is public, but is not a parable...is not of God.

As for Jesus "bodily" raising from the dead and also ascending to the Father - that has been explained to you as only including the flesh in rising from the dead, but not in His ascension. And you looking only at the worldly perspective does not trump the spiritual perspective of Jesus and the Father whom are spirit.

You are a master of taking God's Word out of context - which simply means you're a failure at understanding it.

John 6:63 is speaking specifically about those who couldn't grasp the fact that Jesus was telling them that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood. He just got done explaining to them that they didn't get it because it hadn't been revealed to them. This, however, has absolutely NOTHING to do with our discussion on this thread.

As for Mark 4:11 - you've completely perverted this passage as well.
The key phrase is NOT "all things come in parable." The key phrase in this verse is "but to those who are outside" . . .

 

[ScottA]

good points. Were the Hebrews heirs of Israel, more or less, when they set off into the wilderness? The point being that heirs do not always inherit

That explains your point better, thanks!

Indeed, the heirs of Israel were under the law, unlike those under Christ's calling of our time. However, whether by law or by grace, "many are called, but few are chosen." Nonetheless, "saved" is saved, the promise of eternal life.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Touche, ScottA

And if I might offer the following scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:35-50
verse 50 - "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

To God Be The Glory

And if you agree with Scott that Jesus didn't ascend bodily into Heaven - you're also spewing the same heresy.

His Glorified body is not corruptible and neither with those of us who make it to Heaven.

 

[ScottA]

You are a master of taking God's Word out of context - which simply means you're a failure at understanding it.

John 6:63 is speaking specifically about those who couldn't grasp the fact that Jesus was telling them that they needed to eat His flesh and drink His blood. He just got done explaining to them that they didn't get it because it hadn't been revealed to them. This, however, has absolutely NOTHING to do with our discussion on this thread.

As for Mark 4:11 - you've completely perverted this passage as well.
The key phrase is NOT "all things come in parable." The key phrase in this verse is "but to those who are outside" . . .

Nice try. Not in spirit, and now not in truth.

The end of this kind of conversation ends with someone's interpretation not aligning with God's truth. But the defining difference is always true in spirit - which you have not reckoned with. So, you will have to wait.

 

[Helen]

@ScottA Some great posts ..especially one about two pages back 1184 I think or something like that. and @101G ...great reading you two

 

[Jun2u]

Ummmm - Jesus didn't speak ONLY in parables. He TAUGHT in parables.
He said and did MANY things that were not parabolic.

I have shown you plain and simple that the linguistic facts completely destroy your argument.
Jesus rose from the dead bodily - and he ascended to the Father - bodily.

Our glorified bodies with also be physical.
Philippians 3:20-21 testifies to this face and there is NO getting around it . . .

First of all, a parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning, and without a parable spake He not unto them. This makes the whole Bible a parable.

Secondly, are you saying you know what a glorified body looks like according to Php 3:20-21, seeing no man has gone to heaven and back to confirm this fact?

In fact, we read in John 20:14 that Mary did not recognize Jesus supposing He was the gardener. On another occasion, when the Apostles were gathered together for fear of the Jews, Jesus appeared to them going thru the wall. In Acts 1 the two men (angels) told the disciples that this same (glorified/spiritual) Jesus going up to heaven will come again in like manner.

FYI, our present body is patterned after this earth. Our glorified/spiritual body will be patterned after the "new" earth! I can only imagine how glorious a body that will be.

To God Be The Glory

 

[bbyrd009]

Nonetheless, "saved" is saved, the promise of eternal life.

hmm, kinda surprised to hear you parroting this tbh. But i see that you are talking at BreadofDeath right now, so maybe later

 

[BreadOfLife]

First of all, a parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning, and without a parable spake He not unto them. This makes the whole Bible a parable.

Secondly, are you saying you know what a glorified body looks like according to Php 3:20-21, seeing no man has gone to heaven and back to confirm this fact?

In fact, we read in John 20:14 that Mary did not recognize Jesus supposing He was the gardener. On another occasion, when the Apostles were gathered together for fear of the Jews, Jesus appeared to them going thru the wall. In Acts 1 the two men (angels) told the disciples that this same (glorified/spiritual) Jesus going up to heaven will come again in like manner.

FYI, our present body is patterned after this earth. Our glorified/spiritual body will be patterned after the "new" earth! I can only imagine how glorious a body that will be.

To God Be The Glory

And I agree with everything you just described.
Jesus' glorified body was not corruptible - HOWEVER, it is still a physical body.

We see Jesus eating with the Apostles after His Resurrection (Luke 24:42).
Spirits don't eat food nor do they hunger or have need for food.

As for Parables - Jesus TAUGHT in parables.
Not everything He said was in parables. Most of what Jesus told the Apostles at the Last Supper was instruction and prayer and NOT parabolic at all.