Same ol' Priests and Pharisees :(

[ScottA]

We've done it again!

When Jesus came the first time the religious leaders of Israel (God's own people) rejected Him. They were so far removed from what God had actually told them--the enemy that Jesus came to save them from wasn't just the Roman Empire--it was them, it was the leaders of Israel themselves!

Jesus came preaching what seemed to them to be crazy and even blasphemous, talking about being born again, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that He was from before the foundation of the world, and that He was the real manna from Heaven. They had gotten so turned around from understanding God and His ways, they didn't even recognize His Son. And just like the prophets that God had sent them in the past--they killed Him.

Well, we've done it again! The leaders of the Church have fulfilled the warnings of great apostacy and a falling away from the truth of God and Christ foretold by both Peter and Paul:

2 Peter 2:1 (Peter)
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (Paul)
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
​

The truth now again sounds crazy to those who have been taught the lies of those false teachers. I would venture to say there are again no more than a dozen who follow what is right. Even to say that so sounds blasphemous...just as it did when the prophets, then John the Baptist, then Jesus and the Apostles spoke against the established beliefs of those to whom they were sent.

Have we learned nothing from the past? Is our story to end as theirs did?

If you ask most in the Church today what is coming, they will tell you persecutions are coming. And they are, and they have been. But what was foretold--that those outside the Church would persecute the Church and those who are sent? No, “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them." Mark 13:9

No, it is to be--just as it is even now, just as it was in the day of Christ Jesus--it comes from within. And most, sadly, will cheer as they did then--just as it is even now.

 

[marks]

When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

 

[ScottA]

When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

Since Jesus came, then went to the Father and has returned in those who open the door when He knocks, and will be with us until the end of the age...He has found faith, but also found falsehood and folly. Unfortunately.

Isaiah 54:1
“Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.​

 

[Truth7t7]

When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

Scott doesn't believe Jesus will literally, visibly, return in the clouds of heaven, as human eyes on earth watch the event seen below

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[Truth7t7]

Since Jesus came, then went to the Father and has returned in those who open the door when He knocks, and will be with us until the end of the age...He has found faith, but also found falsehood and folly. Unfortunately.

Isaiah 54:1
“Sing, O barren, You who have not borne! Break forth into singing, and cry aloud, You who have not labored with child! For more are the children of the desolate Than the children of the married woman,” says the Lord.​

Scott's explanation of the Lord's "Second Coming"

Scott doesn't believe Jesus will literally, visibly, return in the clouds of heaven, as human eyes on earth watch the event seen below

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[ScottA]

Scott doesn't believe Jesus will literally, visibly, return in the clouds of heaven, as human eyes on earth watch the event seen below

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Perfect timing!

This is what I was referring to.

 

[Marty fox]

We've done it again!

When Jesus came the first time the religious leaders of Israel (God's own people) rejected Him. They were so far removed from what God had actually told them--the enemy that Jesus came to save them from wasn't just the Roman Empire--it was them, it was the leaders of Israel themselves!

Jesus came preaching what seemed to them to be crazy and even blasphemous, talking about being born again, eating His flesh and drinking His blood, that He was from before the foundation of the world, and that He was the real manna from Heaven. They had gotten so turned around from understanding God and His ways, they didn't even recognize His Son. And just like the prophets that God had sent them in the past--they killed Him.

Well, we've done it again! The leaders of the Church have fulfilled the warnings of great apostacy and a falling away from the truth of God and Christ foretold by both Peter and Paul:

2 Peter 2:1 (Peter)
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 (Paul)
The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
​

The truth now again sounds crazy to those who have been taught the lies of those false teachers. I would venture to say there are again no more than a dozen who follow what is right. Even to say so sounds blasphemous...just as it did when the prophets, then John the Baptist, then Jesus and the Apostles spoke against the established beliefs of those to whom they were sent.

Have we learned nothing from the past? Is our story to end as theirs did?

If you ask most in the Church today what is coming, they will tell you persecutions are coming. And they are, and they have been. But what was foretold--that those outside the Church would persecute those who are sent? No, “But watch out for yourselves, for they will deliver you up to councils, and you will be beaten in the synagogues. You will be brought before rulers and kings for My sake, for a testimony to them." Mark 13:9

No, it is to be--just as it is even now, just as it was in the day of Christ Jesus--it comes from within. And most, sadly, will cheer--just as it is even now.

Many Christians today are making the same mistake about Jesus kingdom as the first century Jews did.

 

[ScottA]

Many Christians today are making the same mistake about Jesus kingdom as the first century Jews did.

That is exactly right!

Jesus set before them life and death (very much as Moses did before Israel also), but this time for the benefit of the Church, saying:

When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Matthew 16:13-19
​

He set before them two rocks, "flesh and blood" and the Rock of ages--even telling them what it was "not" to be. Nonetheless, they chose to pick up the smaller rock and to follow men of "flesh and blood" rather than the "Father."

Then He told them that He would come again, saying, "Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect." He told them personally (saying "you") to His disciples and also to the leaders, saying "I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” And, "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation." And later, that He would "come quickly" telling them all "the things which must shortly take place."

Still, just as Israel had seen all the miracles performed before Moses, Israel and the Church fathers too saw and heard, but did not believe and began to develop their own [false] doctrine of future fulfillment, saying "My master is delaying his coming" which Jesus warned of in Matthew 24:48.

So then, both Peter and Paul foretold the certainty of "false teachers" entering the Church and the believing of a "lie" leading to "strong delusion" and "great apostacy" which we now have seen at work for two millennia "according to the working of Satan" 2 Thessalonians 2:9.

And yet, the Church, such as it was and is, has carried the water of the gospel to each generation in spite of their folly, for His word "shall not return void."

 

[DanielConway]

He set before them two rocks, "flesh and blood" and the Rock of ages--even telling them what it was "not" to be. Nonetheless, they chose to pick up the smaller rock and to follow men of "flesh and blood" rather than the "Father."

Revelation 20:

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The teachings of the apostles were FOUNDATIONAL to the church, not a misleading alternative. In fact any teaching that contrives away from a flawed but vibrant church as being Christ's body in this world and his way of saving his own is a death inducing contrivance and should be put out of both the church and the mind.

 

[ScottA]

Revelation 20:

9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. 11 It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal. 12 It had a great, high wall with twelve gates, and with twelve angels at the gates. On the gates were written the names of the twelve tribes of Israel. 13 There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south and three on the west. 14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

The teachings of the apostles were FOUNDATIONAL to the church, not a misleading alternative. In fact any teaching that contrives away from a flawed but vibrant church as being Christ's body in this world and his way of saving his own is a death inducing contrivance and should be put out of both the church and the mind.

Yes, and yet Peter said that it would in fact happen:

2 Peter 2:1
But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
​

But from your previous actions I suspect you are not here to put them out, are you?

 

[dev553344]

Well this is interesting, if you ask the Catholics they might say that the Protestants are the great apostasy. And if you ask the Protestants, they would say the Catholics. If you asked the Mormons they would say the Catholics and Protestants are the apostasy. I'm not sure which church wouldn't consider the rest the apostasy.

Christ's church follows the bible and the Holy Spirit. It doesn't ignore portions of the bible to suit to the many that might follow if one did just that. The church has bishops and deacons that aren't drunkards, and husbands of one wife. They may also be unmarried to devote their lives wholly to serve the Lord. And the members are admonished to follow the commandments. Baptize, confirm, give bread and wine, etc. Caring for the widows and the poor among them, etc. All of this is spelled out in the bible.

 

[DanielConway]

If you openly acknowledge yourself to be an otherwise damned sinner, infused from conception with a sin nature that no amount of philosophy, self help, or external discipline can atone for much less correct, and you are frightened of what is to become of you if you are left in this state, that is step one. If you read or are told of the saving work of the Lord Jesus Christ, who came into this world of the blessed virgin Mary and was preserved of a sin nature thereby, who kept himself from sin throughout his life by exercising the spiritual disciplines found in the Holy scriptures, and was crucified, suffered and died bearing in his body at the cross OUR curse and damnation and atoning for all our sins thereby, that is step two. If you believe this AND that he was resurrected on the third day, crushing death that would have crushed us, securing for the believers justification, that is, knowledge that we are fully children of God in a gift that CANNOT be revoked, and that he ascended BODILY into heaven, I would call that step three. At this point you are saved, but it gets better the more you read. NOW you are indwelt by the Holy spirit, the councilor and helper, who through the same word and spiritual disciplines Jesus used enables you to successfully wage SPIRITUAL war against the sin in you, which you inevitably will do out of the new nature he has given you by this step of faith. You will also speak it out of your spiritual family by verbalized council, and be able to recognize good teaching from bad. Additionally and most gloriously you are now on the path of spiritual growth and will become more and more Christlike with time and at your passing will be carried home to spend eternity in paradise with your Savior, the Angels and the Saints. If you don't believe this and are preaching some sort of Greek nonsense about honoring, admiring and emulating the great ones of the past and working your way into some position acceptable to God and ultimately beneficial to your fellows thereby you are building a house on sand that will fall with a catastrophic CRASH in the first storm to come along. If you are preaching such a salvation plan to others you are imperiling these precious to God little and weak ones in the communion with poisonous ideas that will result in their destruction if left unchallenged. And may God have mercy on your soul if you are preaching adherence to the Ten Commandments, observance of a particular sabbath, membership in good standing with a particular denominational manifestation of Christ's body or, worst of all, allegiance to a particular Nation or governing system as necessary for salvation. God has an especially horrific place in Hell for those of you who wave the bread of a genuine salvation in front of a flock and then poison it with a works based arsenic out of tribal pride. All such teachings should be put OUT of the church and anyone holding to such teachings should be told to sit quietly during the assembly if he or she wishes to observe REAL saving faith in action in hope that he or she might turn from their madness and repent.

Permission is hereby granted to duplicate or use this post in any manner or forum desired.

 

[shortangel]

great perspectives here

 

[ScottA]

Well this is interesting, if you ask the Catholics they might say that the Protestants are the great apostasy. And if you ask the Protestants, they would say the Catholics. If you asked the Mormons they would say the Catholics and Protestants are the apostasy. I'm not sure which church wouldn't consider the rest the apostasy.

Christ's church follows the bible and the Holy Spirit. It doesn't ignore portions of the bible to suit to the many that might follow if one did just that. The church has bishops and deacons that aren't drunkards, and husbands of one wife. They may also be unmarried to devote their lives wholly to serve the Lord. And the members are admonished to follow the commandments. Baptize, confirm, give bread and wine, etc. Caring for the widows and the poor among them, etc. All of this is spelled out in the bible.

Can you or do you also say the Church does not teach, "My master is delaying his coming?" Matthew 24:48

Because they do.

 

[dev553344]

Can you or do you also say the Church does not teach, "My master is delaying his coming?" Matthew 24:48

Because they do.

That clearly is a reference to death bead repentance. Or not repenting and saying, "I have more time before I meet the Lord". I don't belong to any churches that teach that sinning for now is OK.

 

[ScottA]

That clearly is a reference to death bead repentance. Or not repenting and saying, "I have more time before I meet the Lord". I don't belong to any churches that teach that sinning for now is OK.

That is not at all what the parable or passage is about. Check it out: Matthew 45:36-51

 

[dev553344]

That is not at all what the parable or passage is about. Check it out: Matthew 45:36-51

That is 45 and it further confirms what I said. Like sinners that don't think the Lord is coming but delay their repentance. I'm not sure what about that you don't understand.

 

[ScottA]

That is 45 and it further confirms what I said. Like sinners that don't think the Lord is coming but delay their repentance. I'm not sure what about that you don't understand.

I do understand. Nevertheless, the church teaches that Jesus "is delaying His coming", rather than what He said would be "soon" and "must shortly take place", even clearly stating that they personally would witness His coming, saying to them "[you] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven", rather than some future generation as the church now teaches, and has for 2,000 years.

 

[dev553344]

I do understand. Nevertheless, the church teaches that Jesus "is delaying His coming", rather than what He said would be "soon" and "must shortly take place", even clearly stating that they personally would witness His coming, saying to them "[you] will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven", rather than some future generation as the church now teaches, and has for 2,000 years.

OK, I understand that you consider his coming as already happened then? I often wondered that same thing, a church I attended pointed to a "2nd coming" and that is what I believe. So then there is no confusion. The 1st coming spoken of has then already happened.

 

[dev553344]

You could read up on the second coming of Jesus the Christ here: Second Coming - Wikipedia