Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

I already did. Their hardening was a punishment for their disobedience.

You don't get the point of the question. That is not what is being asked. Let me spell it out again to you here:

The hardening of God is an act of God separate from their hardening themselves, and was done by God after they have hardened themselves. Now, before they were hardened by God, by the hardness of their heart, they rejected and continued to reject and deny the salvation of God in Jesus Christ. This begs the question, why then is there need for God to harden them when by themselves are already hard?

What would be the difference if God just let them be and not hardened them?

So, please address the questions. Thank you.

Tong
R0576

 

[Renniks]

So, you see, both in ancient times and these last days, on the matter of salvation, God chooses to whom He gives grace (mercy), after which He works out to save him through faith, by speaking His words to the point that they are convicted and convinced, that they might have faith.

There's one thing wrong with your conclusion. God gives grace to everyone.
Conviction is not effectual into salvation. It only allows me to see enough to say Yes or no to God's offer.
Christ died once for all. Not for some selected few.

 

[Renniks]

What we need to do, instead of ppl arguing about their "rights", etc., is humbly to bow before the glorious fact that the Father indeed sent the Son to be the Saviour.

Which is in itself a choice. We can humble ourselves before him or choose rebellion. That's the point.

 

[farouk]

Which is in itself a choice. We can humble ourselves before him or choose rebellion. That's the point.

There's no glory or credit in doctrine that ascribes to fallen man a supposed omnipotence that he does not have: it's truly a work of God: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 John 4.10).

 

[Renniks]

why then is there need for God to harden them when by themselves are already hard?

What would be the difference if God just let them be and not hardened them?

That should be your question, because I already asked you this. Why would God need to harden people who could not be saved anyway?
Anyway, what we can be sure of is that it was meant for thier redemption. Remember when God hardened Pharaoh it was so that he could evangelize the Egyptians by showing that he wa Superior to their gods. God always works for the redemption of those who are still able to believe, even if they are currently stubborn. The only ones beyond redemption are those that have once and for all rejected his Spirit.

 

[Renniks]

There's no glory or credit in doctrine that ascribes to fallen man a supposed omnipotence that he does not have: it's truly a work of God: "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins." (1 John 4.10).

Omnipotence? No we don't have that. We do have a free will however. To believe otherwise makes all the biblical admonition to obey into nonsense.

 

[kcnalp]

No, not every individual Jew rejected Jesus. This is why we can't take the hardening of the Jews as absolute.

My main point is, the Church is not Israel.

 

[farouk]

Omnipotence? No we don't have that. We do have a free will however. To believe otherwise makes all the biblical admonition to obey into nonsense.

Ephesians 2 has a very strong passage about the unbeliever's will being fallen and under bondage.

 

[JunChosen]

We do have a free will however.

I said it to you before and I will say it again: "Man is not capable to have the power or a free will to choose for God because he is spiritually dead." A corpse does not have life in himself.

You fall under the group set forth in Mark 4:12:

"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear; and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."

 

[Renniks]

I said it to you before and I will say it again: "Man is not capable to have the power or a free will to choose for God because he is spiritually dead." A corpse does not have life in himself.

So where do you get the corpse analogy and how literal is it? Because we are also told we are dead TO sin, but we can certainly still sin. So why would you think being dead IN sin means you can't respond to the Holy Spirit?

It there's no freedom of will, then men are merely robots going through the motions, and life is all determined by a God who lies about giving us choice.

 

[Renniks]

Ephesians 2 has a very strong passage about the unbeliever's will being fallen and under bondage.

And also tells us we are saved by grace through faith. One cannot have faith without having a freed will.

 

[JunChosen]

So where do you get the corpse analogy and how literal is it? Because we are also told we are dead TO sin, but we can certainly still sin. So why would you think being dead IN sin means you can't respond to the Holy Spirit?

That's the whole point, all that we are capable of doing IS sin (dead to sin).

Romans 3:10-12 reads:

10) "As it is written, There is none righteous no, not one:
11) "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
12) "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one

The above is God's assessment of the human race!!! I merely echo what He says.


It there's no freedom of will, then men are merely robots going through the motions, and life is all determined by a God who lies about giving us choice.

Many in Christendom argues for the ROBOT analogy. What nonsense. Why don't people read/study scriptures as intended by God.

"...let God be true and every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).

 

[Tong2020]

The elect as referring to individuals are simply those who chose to believe, as I already showed. In case you missed it:
First, you need to read Chapter 10.

"Brothers and sisters, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. 2 For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge. 3 Since they did not know the righteousness of God and sought to establish their own, they did not submit to God’s righteousness."
It's very plain, the Jews didn't follow God because they were trying to establish their own righteousness through works.
: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

In Romans 10, Paul makes the point that Israel needs to submit to the righteousness of God, that is, the righteousness of faith, as also is the way for the Gentiles. And so the gospel was preached to them first, and to the Gentiles, that they might have faith, for faith comes by hearing the word of God.

While I agree that the elect at the present time and generation of Israel then spoken in Romans 11:5 and 7, at some point in time, will be converted unto obedience to the gospel, Romans 10 just does not speak the elect, more so speak about who the elect are.

Also, read the following verses slowly and carefully.

Romans 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant spoken in v.5 refers to people of Israel ~ they are Jews (not Christians) at the present time and generation then, who, like the elect remnants in the days of Elijah, have been reserved by God for Himself, and that, by the election of grace. Concerning the remnant, Paul is not talking about Christians nor of the church, but of Israel, even them from before and after the cross. Why there is a remnant according to the election of grace, whom God saves in every generation of Israel, is for another topic, and so I will skip discussing that here for now.

Romans 9: 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Clearly, Isaiah is speaking of a remnant of the children of Israel (Jews not Christians) who will be saved. Now, who are the remnants but those whom God reserved for Himself and whom He will save? They are those whom God had chosen by grace, similar to God's choosing of a remnant of mankind in the days of the flood, who are Noah and family, whom He saved.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

What is it that Israel seek that they did not obtain? In the ultimate sense, God's mercy, that is, salvation. Paul says that the elect have obtained it. Who are the elect? Included are all the children of Israel, both in the past and the present (at least at the days of Paul) and the future (future to Paul's time), who were chosen according to the election of grace, as remnants of Israel, reserved by God for Himself, whom He saves in every passing generation of Israel. Here in Romans 11, Paul tells us that the elect of the present time and generation of Israel, who were by grace chosen out of the rest of Israel, were not blinded by God, but the rest were. The purpose of the hardening, Paul explains in the verses that followed.

Now, I have already shown you how it is for one who is hardened and blinded by God. That the hardened and the blinded would not be able to believe, unless their blindness is taken away by God. Apostle John clearly pointed this truth out (John 12:37-40) and which you have not refuted and of course will not be able to refute. But if you insist otherwise, then so be it with you. Paul in Romans 11:25-26, concerning the hardening and blinding of Israel, tells us when such shall be taken out by God, which is until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Only then that the rest of Israel could be able to see and hear and believe. But before that, none of them are able to believe.

Tong
R0577

 

[Tong2020]

1 John 4 says: "We love Him, because He first loved us".

Exactly! God had done first, what good the Christians now do and are able to do. A timely one farouk.

Tong
R0578

 

[Tong2020]

Who are the individually elect? Those who believe. Yes, its really that simple. Paul is rethinking election around the reality Jesus, and of the resurrection.
Yes, Israel were the chosen people as far as being given the Torah and the line of the Messiah, but anyone can be part of the chosen by believing on Jesus. This is what is meant by corporate election.
6 But not all the Israelites accepted the good news. (But they could have) For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our message?”[h] 17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ. 18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did:

“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”

19 Again I ask: Did Israel not understand? First, Moses says,

“I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding.”[j]

20 And Isaiah boldly says,

“I was found by those who did not seek me;
I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me.”[k]

21 But concerning Israel he says,

“All day long I have held out my hands
to a disobedient and obstinate people.”

These verses show us unequivocally that God is not choosing some and rejecting others for salvation, but it is man's responsibility entirely to seek God.

You said "Yes, Israel were the chosen people as far as being given the Torah and the line of the Messiah, but anyone can be part of the chosen by believing on Jesus. This is what is meant by corporate election." More than the matter of the Torah and line of the Messiah, Israel were the chosen people as far as God's keeping of His promises to Abraham are concerned. Also, anyone who want to be part of ethnic Israel must be circumcised in the flesh. And any uncircumcised in the flesh, that is, any Gentile, who believes in Jesus Christ does not become part of ethnic Israel, but become a member of the body of Christ, the church. Anyway, corporate election simply means a choosing of people as a group, collectively, that is, as oppose to individual election.

Now what must be realized is that, in election, it is God who chooses according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, for His glory. Election is not a choice of man, but of God. In scriptures, we learn that God elected individuals, as well as groups (corporate) of individuals, either for salvation or for judgment, or for a blessing or for a curse/disaster, or for honor or dishonor, or for mercy or hardening, etc. I do not know of any part in scriptures, at least in my reading, that teaches that man could get or work his way to be an elect or be a chosen of God. For the election of God is, according to scriptures, is an election of grace (by God), not of works (by man).On the matter of choice regarding salvation, God chooses first. And only after that, that the choice comes to the man, that is, to those chosen by God. Remember this truth that John said in scriptures, that we love God because God first loved us. This is no different in saying that we chose God because God first chose us.

You said in reference to Romans 10:6-21, "These verses show us unequivocally that God is not choosing some and rejecting others for salvation, but it is man's responsibility entirely to seek God.". Your conclusion there is not only flawed but way off. Firstly no such conclusion can be concluded out of those scriptures, for those scriptures does not even speak about God's election for salvation and for judgment. Rather it speaks about Israel's error and their need to believe in the gospel that they preach to them.

You say that it is man's responsibility to seek God. I'd presume that you say that with regards Israel, that is, them people whom God had first chosen, and therefore had first sought. Now, with regards this matter, consider the scriptures:

Romans 10: 20 But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

Apparently, what that teaches is that, salvation truly belongs to God and is according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, for His glory. We see here that salvation comes to them whom God wills to give it, even to those who did not seek Him.

Tong
R0579

 

[kcnalp]

Exactly! God had done first, what good the Christians now do and are able to do. A timely one farouk.

Tong
R0578

Yes, God created everyone EXACTLY as it pleased Him, knowing who would burn in Hell "forever and ever".

 

[Tong2020]

You really want to go there? I don't want to go off on another course, but I would say that I'm not sure what time period is referred to as when the fullness of the Gentiles came in. If I had to hazard a guess, I don't think Paul really knew when this would happen either. I think he's hoping that once enough Gentiles became believers that the Jews would begin to see the light. In other words, it's not a prophecy so much as Paul restating that he wants his fellow Israelites to be saved asap.

Yes sir. And this is not at all off topic. It is significant in our current discussion of Romans 11.

Now, apparently you are saying that you don't know. Perhaps, as to the exact day and time, we don't know. But we do can know when the fullness of the Gentiles had already come in. For Paul says in verse 26, "And so all Israel will be saved..." So, the counterpart question is, are all Israel saved yet or not yet? If not yet, then the hardening and blinding of Israel, saved the elect remnants, remains.

Tong
R0580

 

[Tong2020]

So they gained approval. I don't see how that changes the meaning. The only way one can read it your way is if he wants to deny that a person can choose or reject God's leading. If commended for the work they did, that would be the work that's the result of choosing to be faithful. No difference.

The main idea that underlies the Greek word "emartyrēthēsan" is to bear witness, to testify. So, the men and women mentioned in Hebrews 11, which by faith have obtained a good testimony (v.2, 39), are all witnesses to what faith is. As I pointed out, it is not really them who are being spoken about in Hebrews 11, but about faith. And here's what the writer of Hebrews said in the very first verse of the next chapter (Heb. 12:1), "Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses......". That's right, witnesses to the faith and what faith is.

Tong
R0581

 

[Tong2020]

You didn't even address the question. Again, if I am chosen for salvation, can I do otherwise? No, it is a predetermined condition. There's no escaping the obvious.

If you are chosen for salvation, you don't lose your will to choose. You get to choose to believe or not. The matter is that when one is an elect, at the end of the day, he will choose God.

God will not fail to save each and every one of them whom He gave to the Son, those whom He elected for salvation. Not even the self-confessed worst of all sinners, was brought to conviction, was convinced, and was converted by God.

Now, don't tell me that the elect does not really have any choice. If that were true, then no elect would experience any act of making a choice since you seem to contend that there is no choice for him to make in the first place. But the reality is, all who come to Jesus Christ make a choice, that is, they chose to believe.

Tong
R0582

 

[Tong2020]

I did. Did you not claim Jacob was chosen for salvation and Esau was not? Throwing up a smoke screen does not hide the obvious conclusions.

I had already sufficiently explained myself in the previous postings Renniks. So I will not belabor on this. I will just be needlessly repeating myself. I'll leave you at that.

Tong
R0583