Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

There's one thing wrong with your conclusion. God gives grace to everyone.
Conviction is not effectual into salvation. It only allows me to see enough to say Yes or no to God's offer.
Christ died once for all. Not for some selected few.

God could be said to give grace to everyone, but there are graces that God does not give to everyone, alike. Like for example, especially during the OT times, the grace that God gave to Israel, He did not give to everyone else. Even among the children of Israel, God does not give the same grace to every Israelite alike. Remember? God said to Moses:

Exodus 33:19 Then He said, “I will make all My goodness pass before you, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before you. I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.”

Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”

You may say that conviction is not effectual into salvation, but it is part of the process of the salvation of God. The one being saved by God, God will work in the minds and hearts of them, convicting, convincing, and converting them. No man, whom God had chosen to save, is so wicked and hardened that God could not work out to convict, convince, and convert.

You said "Christ died once for all. Not for some selected few." That is just a repeat of what you said in your past posts for which I already have addressed and so will not repeat myself here.

Tong
R0584

 

[Tong2020]

Which is in itself a choice. We can humble ourselves before him or choose rebellion. That's the point.

That you are saved or at least deserved to be saved because you chose to believe in Jesus Christ.
That you are saved or at least deserved to be saved because you chose to remain faithful to God until the end.
That you are saved or at least deserved to be saved because you chose to be humble.
That you are saved or at least deserved to be saved because you chose to keep all the commandments of God.
That you are saved or at least deserved to be saved because you chose to .... and because you chose to ..... and because you chose to......

That seems to be your point sir?

Salvation: Is it about your will or God's will? Is it about your work or God's work?

Tong
R0585

 

[Tong2020]

That should be your question, because I already asked you this. Why would God need to harden people who could not be saved anyway?
Anyway, what we can be sure of is that it was meant for thier redemption. Remember when God hardened Pharaoh it was so that he could evangelize the Egyptians by showing that he wa Superior to their gods. God always works for the redemption of those who are still able to believe, even if they are currently stubborn. The only ones beyond redemption are those that have once and for all rejected his Spirit.

Renniks: Why would God need to harden people who could not be saved anyway?

Tong: why then is there need for God to harden them when by themselves are already hard?

God's hardening of the already hard hearted Israel, in line with the expressed purposes that Paul said in Romans chapter 11, not only demonstrate His sovereignty over them, that by doing so, render them ultimately incapable of seeing and hearing, and believing. And by that, their disobedience is certain. For by this, according to the wisdom of God, God had caused His salvation to come to the Gentiles, to be certain and just. And if you read verses 30-32, it appears to be that, by this, God had the situation of the Jews and Gentiles as though switched, to the end that God might have mercy on both the Jew and the Gentile.

Tong
R0586

 

[Tong2020]

No, not every individual Jew rejected Jesus. This is why we can't take the hardening of the Jews as absolute.

The hardening of Israel is absolute, but a temporary situation that will be only until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Those relatively small number of Jews who believed and obeyed the gospel of Jesus Christ, be it then at the days of the apostles and thereafter, could only be among the elect remnant and could not be from among those who were hardened by God.

Tong
R0587

 

[Tong2020]

Omnipotence? No we don't have that. We do have a free will however. To believe otherwise makes all the biblical admonition to obey into nonsense.

Renniks, it is God who gave the man, his will, right? It is also God who gave the man, his life, right? Afterall, it is God who gave the man, everything that the man have, right? Whatever happens to whatever that man have that God had given him is his responsibility, right? Man essentially had lost the life that God gave him when he sinned, rendering him as one essentially dead.

Can you tell us what happened to his will when he sinned? Had not his will been impaired?

Tong
R0588

 

[Tong2020]

So where do you get the corpse analogy and how literal is it? Because we are also told we are dead TO sin, but we can certainly still sin. So why would you think being dead IN sin means you can't respond to the Holy Spirit?

Those dead to sin are those being saved, the Christian. Those dead in sin are those such as who the Christians formerly were. In other words, they are the unconverted. They are those that Paul was referring to as the "natural man" in his letter to the church of God which is at Corinth. Paul said "the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Would you not agree that the natural man, that is, the dead in sin, had lost his ability to know the things of the Spirit of God? And because of that, he is rendered to not be able to spiritually respond, as though, spiritually dead in relation to God.

Regarding the Christian, who are said to be dead to sin, why do they still sin? It's because, they are still in the "body of death". Read Romans 7 about the body of the death.

Tong
R0589

 

[Renniks]

Many in Christendom argues for the ROBOT analogy. What nonsense. Why don't people read/study scriptures as intended by God.

"...let God be true and every man a liar" (Romans 3:4).

That's not an answer. I do study the scriptures, which is why I don't buy into Calvinism.

 

[Renniks]

In Romans 10, Paul makes the point that Israel needs to submit to the righteousness of God, that is, the righteousness of faith, as also is the way for the Gentiles. And so the gospel was preached to them first, and to the Gentiles, that they might have faith, for faith comes by hearing the word of God.

While I agree that the elect at the present time and generation of Israel then spoken in Romans 11:5 and 7, at some point in time, will be converted unto obedience to the gospel, Romans 10 just does not speak the elect, more so speak about who the elect are.

“Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

What is it you don't understand about "Everyone."?

Also, read the following verses slowly and carefully.

Romans 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant spoken in v.5 refers to people of Israel ~ they are Jews (not Christians) at the present time and generation then, who, like the elect remnants in the days of Elijah, have been reserved by God for Himself, and that, by the election of grace. Concerning the remnant, Paul is not talking about Christians nor of the church, but of Israel, even them from before and after the cross. Why there is a remnant according to the election of grace, whom God saves in every generation of Israel, is for another topic, and so I will skip discussing that here for now.

Romans 9: 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Clearly, Isaiah is speaking of a remnant of the children of Israel (Jews not Christians) who will be saved. Now, who are the remnants but those whom God reserved for Himself and whom He will save? They are those whom God had chosen by grace, similar to God's choosing of a remnant of mankind in the days of the flood, who are Noah and family, whom He saved.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

What is it that Israel seek that they did not obtain? In the ultimate sense, God's mercy, that is, salvation. Paul says that the elect have obtained it. Who are the elect? Included are all the children of Israel, both in the past and the present (at least at the days of Paul) and the future (future to Paul's time), who were chosen according to the election of grace, as remnants of Israel, reserved by God for Himself, whom He saves in every passing generation of Israel. Here in Romans 11, Paul tells us that the elect of the present time and generation of Israel, who were by grace chosen out of the rest of Israel, were not blinded by God, but the rest were. The purpose of the hardening, Paul explains in the verses that followed.

Now, I have already shown you how it is for one who is hardened and blinded by God. That the hardened and the blinded would not be able to believe, unless their blindness is taken away by God. Apostle John clearly pointed this truth out (John 12:37-40) and which you have not refuted and of course will not be able to refute. But if you insist otherwise, then so be it with you. Paul in Romans 11:25-26, concerning the hardening and blinding of Israel, tells us when such shall be taken out by God, which is until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Only then that the rest of Israel could be able to see and hear and believe. But before that, none of them are able to believe.

Tong
R0577[/QUOTE]

Paul explains that there are a relatively small number of ethnic Israelites who have obtained righteousness. These are “the elect”. They correspond to the “remnant” from verse 5. Paul distinguishes “the elect” from “the rest”. “The rest” is everyone else in ethnic Israel who is not “the elect”

[32] For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Paul thinks that non-elect people, who have been hardened, can be saved!

This tells us a lot about Paul’s understanding of what it means to be “elect”. Paul started off (in verse 7) by dividing ethnic Israel into “the elect” (who have obtained righteousness) and “the rest” (who have not obtained righteousness, are non-elect, and have been hardened). “The elect” Israelites are those who are trusting in Christ, as they have obtained righteousness already (verse 7). Regarding “the rest”, Paul thinks it is possible for a non-elect person to trust in Christ and therefore be saved.

By Paul’s definition, when a non-elect person trusts in Christ, they will become part of “the elect”, as they will then have obtained righteousness. On an individual basis, therefore, a person can change from being non-elect to being elect. They move from the group of people called “the rest” into the group of people called “the elect”.

 

[Renniks]

Anyway, corporate election simply means a choosing of people as a group, collectively, that is, as oppose to individual election.

As I said before, you don't know what corporate election is. You really should look into it instead of making uneducated statements like this one.

 

[Renniks]

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”

Apparently, what that teaches is that, salvation truly belongs to God and is according to His will, purpose, and pleasure, for His glory. We see here that salvation comes to them whom God wills to give it, even to those who did not seek Him.

This is speaking of the gospel going out the gentile world. It obviously does not negate the gentiles responsibility to respond to the gospel in order to be saved. In fact, why preach the gospel at all if God is just picking some for salvation and some for damnation? Will they not find God regardless if they are among the chosen? Individual election destroys any reason for evangelism. It makes men mere puppets of a god who only truly loves a few select individuals and hates the rest. That's not the true gospel.

 

[Tong2020]

One cannot have faith without having a freed will.

With your line of thinking, and with that belief, then it is like saying that one cannot be saved without having a free will.

So with your line of thinking, man, by his having a free will, is responsible for his condemnation. And likewise then, man, by his having free will, is responsible for his salvation.

That all boils down to saying that everything concerning man is really about the free will of man, isn't it?

Tong
R0590

 

[Renniks]

Now, apparently you are saying that you don't know. Perhaps, as to the exact day and time, we don't know. But we do can know when the fullness of the Gentiles had already come in. For Paul says in verse 26, "And so all Israel will be saved..." So, the counterpart question is, are all Israel saved yet or not yet? If not yet, then the hardening and blinding of Israel, saved the elect remnants, remains.

All Israel will be saved doesn't mean every individual Jew. These are highly debated verses.

There are some that believe that phrase means that one day the nation of Israel itself will be re-instituted and every member thereof will be a believer in God through Jesus...Others believe that this verse simply states that God will continue to deal with the people of Israel generation after generation
and that once we have gotten to the end of time we will look back and we will see this great cumulative work that God has done amongst His people... and some just think it means all the true church will be saved. So you need to state your position.

I will say this: Paul is asserting here that all Jewish people who embrace Christ by faith will be engrafted into the body of Christ.
And he does not downplay the necessity of faith. They will be grafted in for God is able to graft them in again, when they are willing to respond to him. I don't believe this is some kind of prophecy about when that happens, so I think you are misusing the verse.

 

[farouk]

And also tells us we are saved by grace through faith. One cannot have faith without having a freed will.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." (Philippians 2.13)
"Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power..." (Psalm 11.3)

 

[Tong2020]

“Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”[f]

What is it you don't understand about "Everyone."?

I understand what "everyone" there means and what verse 13 is saying? Do you? I see again here your problem in understanding "everyone" which is the same problem you have with the word "all" as used in another verse. You don't know how to qualify such terms, wherein here, you seem to want to make "everyone" to include even those already in the grave and those God had hardened and blinded. "Everyone" there excludes those already in the grave and all others who are not able to call on the Lord, such as those whom God had hardened and blinded. Besides the verse does not say "Everyone can call on the name of the Lord...."

Tong
R0591

 

[Tong2020]

Paul explains that there are a relatively small number of ethnic Israelites who have obtained righteousness. These are “the elect”. They correspond to the “remnant” from verse 5. Paul distinguishes “the elect” from “the rest”. “The rest” is everyone else in ethnic Israel who is not “the elect”

I will just have to repeat myself here.

Romans 11:4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

The remnant spoken in v.5 refers to people of Israel ~ they are Jews (not Christians) at the present time and generation then, who, like the elect remnants in the days of Elijah, have been reserved by God for Himself, and that, by the election of grace. Concerning the remnant, Paul is not talking about Christians nor of the church, but of Israel, even them from before and after the cross. Why there is a remnant according to the election of grace, whom God saves in every generation of Israel, is for another topic, and so I will skip discussing that here for now.

Romans 9: 27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Clearly, Isaiah is speaking of a remnant of the children of Israel (Jews not Christians) who will be saved. Now, who are the remnants but those whom God reserved for Himself and whom He will save? They are those whom God had chosen by grace, similar to God's choosing of a remnant of mankind in the days of the flood, who are Noah and family, whom He saved.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

What is it that Israel seek that they did not obtain? In the ultimate sense, God's mercy, that is, salvation. Paul says that the elect have obtained it. Who are the elect? Included are all the children of Israel, both in the past and the present (at least at the days of Paul) and the future (future to Paul's time), who were chosen according to the election of grace, as remnants of Israel, reserved by God for Himself, whom He saves in every passing generation of Israel. Here in Romans 11, Paul tells us that the elect of the present time and generation of Israel, who were by grace chosen out of the rest of Israel, were not blinded by God, but the rest were. The purpose of the hardening, Paul explains in the verses that followed.

That was what I posted regarding the elect remnant and the blinded Israel. I'll add this question: What is your take on this phrase in verse 4, "I have reserved for Myself"?

Tong
R0592

 

[Tong2020]

[32] For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Let me quote that verse with the context.

Romans 11: 30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

What do you say the "all" there in v.32 mean?

What is your understanding of verses 30-31?

Paul thinks that non-elect people, who have been hardened, can be saved!

He does not. You only think he thinks like you. By that, you would be making Paul to go against the scriptures:

John 12:37 But although He had done so many signs before them, they did not believe in Him, 38 that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke:

“Lord, who has believed our report?
And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?”

39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,
Lest they should see with their eyes,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.”

Please tell us, in your reading of the above scriptures, if those blinded and hardened by God could believe or not.

This tells us a lot about Paul’s understanding of what it means to be “elect”. Paul started off (in verse 7) by dividing ethnic Israel into “the elect” (who have obtained righteousness) and “the rest” (who have not obtained righteousness, are non-elect, and have been hardened). “The elect” Israelites are those who are trusting in Christ, as they have obtained righteousness already (verse 7).

I'd like to highlight this portion of what Pauls said in verse 7 regarding the elect, that is, "but the elect have obtained it". Paul was talking about Israel, and so, the "elect" there refers to the Jews. If you'll notice Paul said "the elect..." (referring to the still unconverted Jews) have obtained it. Paul then was referring to them as "the elect" before they obtained it.

Regarding “the rest”, Paul thinks it is possible for a non-elect person to trust in Christ and therefore be saved.

I already pointed out, if that were so, then Paul is going against the scriptures.

By Paul’s definition, when a non-elect person trusts in Christ, they will become part of “the elect”, as they will then have obtained righteousness. On an individual basis, therefore, a person can change from being non-elect to being elect. They move from the group of people called “the rest” into the group of people called “the elect”.

First, it's not Paul's definition, but yours. I have already shown you the error of what you say there.

Tong
R0593

 

[Tong2020]

As I said before, you don't know what corporate election is. You really should look into it instead of making uneducated statements like this one.

No sir. We apparently only differ in our definition.
Uneducated statement? How have I made an uneducated statement? Why, is there in scriptures that defines "corporate election"? For all I know, it is some term that you or others employed to hold a certain idea. And such use of terms are not exclusive to you or the others. I or any Christian could employ the same term to hold an idea different from what you have it mean.

Besides, it is not the term that makes what idea it was employed to hold to be true, but the truth in scriptures.

Tong
R0594

 

[Renniks]

You may say that conviction is not effectual into salvation, but it is part of the process of the salvation of God. The one being saved by God, God will work in the minds and hearts of them, convicting, convincing, and converting them. No man, whom God had chosen to save, is so wicked and hardened that God could not work out to convict, convince, and convert.

You said "Christ died once for all. Not for some selected few." That is just a repeat of what you said in your past posts for which I already have addressed and so will not repeat myself here.

God chose to save whosever will. In your scenario, why would God convict the world of sin? John 16:8
How could he not be willing that any perish if he just selected some by throwing dice?
2 Peter 3:9

"For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. " Titus 2

What a sad little God you have who has to manipulate a few people into believing and ignores the rest.

 

[Renniks]

Salvation: Is it about your will or God's will? Is it about your work or God's work

Both. We can not save ourselves, but we must humble ourselves in order for God to save us. So it's not about our work, but our submission to God's work.

 

[Renniks]

Renniks: Why would God need to harden people who could not be saved anyway?

Tong: why then is there need for God to harden them when by themselves are already hard?

God's hardening of the already hard hearted Israel, in line with the expressed purposes that Paul said in Romans chapter 11, not only demonstrate His sovereignty over them, that by doing so, render them ultimately incapable of seeing and hearing, and believing. And by that, their disobedience is certain. For by this, according to the wisdom of God, God had caused His salvation to come to the Gentiles, to be certain and just. And if you read verses 30-32, it appears to be that, by this, God had the situation of the Jews and Gentiles as though switched, to the end that God might have mercy on both the Jew and the Gentile.

Tong
R0586

Totally missed my point. If they were born incapable of being saved, why would God have to harden them against him?