Only if you believe in individual election. Otherwise, why was Jesus preaching to them? What about the Jews who believed after Pentecost? Remember, Paul said those hardened were not beyond being saved, so there goes your whole claim here out the window. If they could at any point in time go from being hardened to being saved, individual election is proven to be false.
Saved Or Predestined ???
- Thread starter Pianoworldstage
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Yes, it's mans' responsibility, but not in your scheme where God does everything. Essentially dead or literally dead? Because essentially dead means we can respond to the live giver and be brought back to life. Literally dead means we are just corpses and can not be saved. Now, I know some Calvinist is going to bring up Lazarus., and that's fine for an analogy, but not for the complete reality of how salvation works. God doesn't drag our bones in against our will. His Spirit speaks to us and we either respond or not.
Ephesians 6:17
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,
Acts 7:51
“You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.
See the contrast? We have to take action in order to be saved or we can take the opposite action of resistance and stay in our sin.
We all know we are capable of resisting because we have all done it.
If we can not respond to the Spirit, we could never be saved in the first place.
But we can.
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,
Romans 10:13
For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Notice the action verbs. This calling isn't only in one direction. Deep calls to deep. Every man is born with a spirit capable of responding to the Holy Spirit.
"Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price."
"Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
Not even close. But without free will, the entire Bible turns into nonsense. If Adam was not really given a choice, what was he punished for? If the people of Noah's time had no other choice but debauchery, why were they drowned ?
And on and on it goes. Freedom is necessary for reward and punishment to be just.
The methodology by which God elects people to salvation is through a remnant (few) which is true for every nation.
Cutting pieces of verses out but no context, how Calvinists of you!
" Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,..." And how ironic that this precedes the verse you quoted, yes, God works in you, if you do what is commanded here.
How amusing that those who believe in individual election, always consider themselves one of the "everyone"!
It's okay to believe the faceless majority is irresistibly damned, but not that they probably are too.
Yes.
What you say there does not in any way refute what I said in my post which you responded to.
So, what do you suggest God do, rely on man's disposition, in the accomplishment of His salvation? Or, what do you suggest we do, to not preach? God's election does not make preaching of no need. God's election does not take away the truth that God saves through faith. Now faith comes by hearing the word of God, and so we preach. It also does not take away the truth that we do not know who among men are the chosen of God until they are manifested by their coming to Jesus Christ, that is, believing in Him. And so we preach.
God does not elect people for damnation, rather, God elects a people to be His people whom He saves from damnation.
Let me share to you an ancient true story which gives us a picture of what a sinner naturally does.
Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ”
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves coverings.
8 And they heard the sound of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God among the trees of the garden.
9 Then the Lord God called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
The sinner hides from the Lord, and the Lord is Him who seeks.
Now regarding your question, my answer is no.
It does not.
Tong
R0595
I dosdo not see this as a reference to the individual election of seven thousand men, but to God's preserving those who are faithful to him. And this is what we found when we look at Arminian commentators like Adam Clarke.
"These [seven thousand] had continued faithful to God; but, because of Jezebel's persecution, they were obliged to conceal their attachment to the true religion; and God, in his providence, preserved them from her sanguinary rage. "
Another commentary by Cottrell:
"Certainly this is an act of God regarding these men, but God's act is conditioned on the fact that they "have not bowed the knee to Baal." God is telling Elijah, "There are more than just you who have remained faithful. Indeed, I have identified and singled out from the great majority of Israelites a group of seven thousand true worshipers. I have separated them from the rest; in my sight they are a different group, a remnant. These are the ones I have kept in my saving grace and in close fellowship with myself."
The "election" of these seven thousand is conditioned on their faithfulness – those won by grace are thereby "elected," as I explained before.
No, not if individual election is true. Surely you can see that if someone is pre chosen he can not be damned, whether he ever hears the gospel or not. And that the one chosen to be reprobate can't be saved regardless.
John Calvin at least understood that his theology led to Divine determinism.
" the sum of the whole is this – since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence; so that he not only exerts his power in the elect, who are guided by the Holy Spirit, but also forces the reprobate to do him service.” ( John Calvin)
In Adam's case, he was the only human created "good" (perfect) therefore the only one with free will. Remember, there was no sin in the Garden at that time until he disobeyed God and lost his free will, and everything good in him.
Since the fall man became a sinner without a free will that is, he became spiritually dead and lost all fellowship with God!
Now work with that premise.
To God Be The Glory
It means all, every one who has ever lived since Adam.
The Jews rebellion sent the gospel to the gentiles. So in that sense it became easier to obtain mercy because of thier rebellion.and Paul is hopeful that the same will happen in reverse, as the Jews become jealous of the gentiles faith.
Many did, so obviously it wasn't impossible.
No that's not what it says...it says they have obtained it, not that they obtained it before they were converted!? Where did you get that?
No you haven't. Paul was gaining a new understanding of election, and realizing it was about faith in Christ, not being part of a certain ethnic group.
It's important to understand how certain terms are used in the theological world, especially if you're going to argue against them.
"corporate election is the idea that, when God elected or predestined people to be saved, He did not pick out individual people; rather, God chose Christ. Since Christ is the chosen one, all who come to Christ in faith are part of the chosen group. This view is sometimes called “class election” or expressed as God’s predestinating “the way of salvation.” In other words, “God chose the plan, not the man.” He chose the corporate entity in which salvation can take place (“in Christ”), but He did not choose the individuals who would be saved. A person only becomes part of the elect when he or she exercises faith in Christ. People are “chosen” when they choose to join the group that God had chosen."
Your answer is illogical. And you don't understand individual election, either, it seems. Again, if you are irresistibly chosen from eternity past for salvation, can you mess that up? C'mon, to say you can goes against everything you have been preaching.
Of course God seeks for us, but he doesn't just seek for some. He seeks whosoever will respond. He convicts the world, not just a few people. If we hide as Adam did, we know our sin and that's a good first step towards asking for help.
I do. It's simple. God seeks for whoever will respond. He offers salvation to all. We are not capable of saving ourselves, that is correct, but we certainly have to be able to respond, or all the commands to obey or follow are gibberish. Remember Cornelius? He was actively seeking God although he did not yet have access to the gospel. Actually the majority of people in the world, are seeking for truth. If this weren't so, they would all be atheists.
I take notice that it seems with this verse you are open and even acknowledge that "all" does not mean each and every individual Jew.
That's not the issue under discussion. The issue is whether the fullness of the Gentiles has already come in or not yet, or if all Israel had already been saved. For this will settle the matter of the hardening of "the rest" of Israel, whether it had already ended or it still remains. But as you said, you don't know. And so, it is for you, which leaves you somewhat at a lost regarding that matter.
I take knowledge of the mystery which Paul had just revealed therein, that blindness in part has happened to Israel. What is the meaning of this blindness in part? It means that Israel, as a people, as a whole, are blinded to the truth that Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah spoken and prophesied about in the Holy Scriptures, and so they reject the gospel. Why has this happened? According to Paul, taking reference in the OT scriptures, it is because God has given Israel a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear (v.8). It is in part, in the sense that God had reserved for Himself, just as He had in past generations of Israel (v.4), a remnant according to the election of grace (v.5), whom He did not harden or blinded (v.7), and whom He saved. Paul said that this hardening and blinding of Israel shall be until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in (v.25). Has this happened yet? Paul gave us a sign that we may know when such had taken place. He said in verse 26, that when that happens, all Israel will be saved. Now, I don't believe that such had already happened simply because, to this very day, it cannot be said that Israel, as a people, as a whole, are saved, that is, believes the gospel of Jesus Christ.
As such then, Israel, to this day, remains in the state of blindness, saved a few, a remnant according to the election of grace.
Tong
R0596
And why would He not? In answer to your question, here's a scriptures that gives a direct answer.
John 16:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me;
God, through the Holy Spirit, will convict the world of sin, because the world do not believe in Him.
That question is for a strawman of your making Renniks and not for me. For I don't believe that God's election is by throwing dice.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
But to say a few words on the scriptures in 2 Peter 3:9 which you cited in reference, you again seem to misuse said scriptures. It has been like this with you where you fail to correctly qualify some terms. In this case the word "us" and the word "all". You also must take note that the verse is talking about God's promise. Now, you must consider to whom the promise is given by God.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
That is a more literal translation of that scriptures in Titus 2:11. Here are few words on that also. The context tells us that the grace of God that brings salvation, which Paul says has appeared to all men, has everything to do with Jesus Christ.
You said "What a sad little God you have who has to manipulate a few people into believing and ignores the rest." That comment is for another strawman of your making Renniks and not for me. For my God is not whom you say He is. My God does not do that. Rather, He works in the minds and hearts of those whom He saves, convicting them, convincing them, and converting them. To you perhaps that is manipulation. But it is not. That is grace.
Did God manipulate Paul or was that grace? Did God manipulate those spoken in the following scriptures or was that grace?
Acts 13:48 Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Tong
R0597
Of course man cannot save himself. That is the bottom line.
And who do you say can humble themselves to God, if not them who knows God and have faith in God in the first place?
No matter how you try to avoid it, salvation is about God's will and work, not about man's will and work. That is why in scriptures, we can only read that salvation belongs to God.
Tong
R0598
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