Saved Or Predestined ???

[Tong2020]

It's God blessing those who are faithful to him. For the purpose of this discussion, what is important is that the others who were hardened are still capable of being saved. The remnant are the currently elect, but the currently hardened can join the elect by trusting in Jesus as Messiah.

The point of my question is to bring out that your belief there, that is, God preserving people, such as the chosen remnant of Israel, the faithful as you say, is an act of God that demonstrate at least His influence, if not control, upon the situation of these people. For the preserving of them means that, with these people, the possibility of being lost or condemned is taken away. And that would be going against your belief, does it not? And while what you say there about God preserving the remnant is truth, since it goes against your belief, you would be more willing to reject than accept what it entails or implies there, right? And that's sad.

Still, you just keep insisting that those who were hardened are able to see, hear, and believe. And so I repeat for the nth time, unless you can prove that the scriptures written in John 12:37-40 are false, which defines what it means to be hardened, your teaching there remains to be false.

Tong
R0608

 

[Tong2020]

This just confirms what I already said. Belief first then salvation. You don't get regenerated to belief. You believe and thiare regenerated.

No sir. You are again avoiding the argument against your belief that all man, that is, "everyone", can call on the Lord. And the argument is that, those who calls on the name of the Lord could only be those who have believed in the Lord ~ the believer. So, in the absence of a refutation, your belief stands to be refuted and so is proven false.

Tong
R0609

 

[Tong2020]

You have no answer here. Yes, you do claim man has no will of his own in regards to salvation, but God must force salvation. It's the spiritual rape version of salvation, not found in scripture.

What answer are you talking about? The answer to your question about a strawman issue? Why would I be required to answer such questions? Ask your strawman if you want answers. Even if I like to answer, I could just not answer a question on something I don't believe.

And here you keep insisting that I claim what I did not. Isn't that bearing false testimony against me? Be careful my friend. So, let me put that very very clear here. Man, with regards salvation and anything for that matter, has his own will. God, with regards salvation, in accordance to His entire divine nature and being, have chosen people to save, to be His people, and gave them His gift of eternal life. He does not force this salvation upon them, but works it out to the end that they, by their own will, freely and voluntarily, choose to believe Him and believe in Him.

Tong
R0610

 

[Tong2020]

Do you believe you were chosen and others were not? Why? Perhaps you only think you are chosen if that's the case.

So, okay, let's go to another issue.

You ask "Do you believe you were chosen and others were not?" Yes.

You ask "Why? Perhaps you only think you are chosen if that's the case." It is faith, that I believe and claim that I am among the chosen. I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe in God and Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ, and His words in scriptures. I believe in all of that, not because I think I am chosen, but because I am chosen.

How about you, do you believe you were chosen and others were not?

Do you believe that you will be saved by God because you, by your own will and initiative and working out, believed in the gospel, in God, in Jesus Christ, and that the others will not be saved because they have not done such things?

Tong
R0611

 

[Renniks]

We ere NOT talking about Calvin rather about Cornelius. I'm sorry but you just displayed how you are not capable to really have dialogue with anyone.

I thought I was very nice to ask you to have a friend read Acts 10 apparently because you had no clue at all who Cornelius is. And now you turn around by throwing Calvin at me to which he had nothing to do with this post.

You seem to think everything is so simple. Yes, ONLY if you know what you are speaking about but not in this forum or to any other subject you choose.

Another put down. I've read Acts 10 many times. Perhaps if you made your point instead of making vague statements?

 

[Renniks]

So, let me then take that in your question and so it goes as: If they were not chosen for salvation, why would God have to harden them against him?

What is clear is that, when God does something, even the hardening of people, such as the case of Pharaoh, He does it with purpose. So, with regards your question, it is in this sense that God hardens them. Paul tells us the purpose of God behind the hardening of Israel. John tells us what it means when one is hardened by God.

In comment to your question, I would say that, it is reasonable to think and say, that they (those of Israel who were not among the chosen remnant) were not chosen for salvation, at least if they were in such hardened state until the end of their earthly life, where while alive, they ultimately were disabled to see, hear, and so believe, the gospel of Jesus Christ, the gospel of salvation.

In further comment regarding your question, I'd like to point out that God hardens and blinds them, that is, by giving them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear. And we must be careful NOT to mistake that such act of God to be an act that makes people be against him. That would be a wrong understanding of God's hardening of people, and altogether a wrong understanding of God, for such goes against God's nature. God's hardening is not like that. It is really no different from what we can read in Romans 1 about what God did to people then, that is, when He gave them up to uncleanness, gave them up to vile passions, and gave them over to a debased mind. God did not, by those acts, caused people to be against Him. Rather, by such act, God ultimately shuts them off and effectively kept them away from Himself. So I say that God did not, when He hardens people, cause them to be against Him. Go figure!

Tong
R0607

Yes, Go figure. You claim a totally illogical position and then try to defend it by making God scizophenic. If they were not chosen for salvaton and God gives them a blindness besides that, you can't turn around and say God did not cause them to be against him. That's ludicrous. God giving someone up is a different thing altogether than choosing them from eternity past for damnation. God may well have given them up because of their rebellion, but you can't claim someone is being rebellious when God left them no other choice.
If God if fact, chose them for damnation by not making salvation avaible to them, then, he did, in fact cause them to be reprobates with no hope of eternity with him. But of course, that's not the God of the Bible, that's the god of pagan determinism.

 

[Renniks]

The point of my question is to bring out that your belief there, that is, God preserving people, such as the chosen remnant of Israel, the faithful as you say, is an act of God that demonstrate at least His influence, if not control, upon the situation of these people. For the preserving of them means that, with these people, the possibility of being lost or condemned is taken away. And that would be going against your belief, does it not? And while what you say there about God preserving the remnant is truth, since it goes against your belief, you would be more willing to reject than accept what it entails or implies there, right? And that's sad.

Still, you just keep insisting that those who were hardened are able to see, hear, and believe. And so I repeat for the nth time, unless you can prove that the scriptures written in John 12:37-40 are false, which defines what it means to be hardened, your teaching there remains to be false.

Tong
R0608

Why would God preserving those who are faithful to him go against my belief? God blesses the faithful, as I said. Doesn't mean they are always given an easy path, but God will not abondon those who are faithful to cling to him.
And as I said before, Paul says they were not hardend to the point of not being able to believe.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” 11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. "

Apparently you believe Paul was wrong and they stumbled beyond recovery.

 

[Renniks]

No sir. You are again avoiding the argument against your belief that all man, that is, "everyone", can call on the Lord. And the argument is that, those who calls on the name of the Lord could only be those who have believed in the Lord ~ the believer. So, in the absence of a refutation, your belief stands to be refuted and so is proven false.

Tong
R0609

Lol, this is absurd. Yes, those who call on the Lord are believers, because they have chosen to believe! You just can't get it into your head that belief isn't irresistably imposed on us, can you?

 

[Renniks]

Man, with regards salvation and anything for that matter, has his own will. God, with regards salvation, in accordance to His entire divine nature and being, have chosen people to save, to be His people, and gave them His gift of eternal life. He does not force this salvation upon them, but works it out to the end that they, by their own will, freely and voluntarily, choose to believe Him and believe in Him.

You are believing a contradiction. That's your choice, but it's not Biblical. If some are chosen for eternal life any choice they make in that regard is logically already made for them before they were ever concieved...so it is in fact, forced on them.

 

[Renniks]

So, okay, let's go to another issue.

You ask "Do you believe you were chosen and others were not?" Yes.

You ask "Why? Perhaps you only think you are chosen if that's the case." It is faith, that I believe and claim that I am among the chosen. I believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. I believe in God and Him whom He sent, Jesus Christ, and His words in scriptures. I believe in all of that, not because I think I am chosen, but because I am chosen.

How about you, do you believe you were chosen and others were not?

Do you believe that you will be saved by God because you, by your own will and initiative and working out, believed in the gospel, in God, in Jesus Christ, and that the others will not be saved because they have not done such things?

Tong
R0611

Not quite. I do believe others will not be saved because they didn't respond to God, but my salvation was not of my will. I can't will myself to do the impossible, for example, I can not flap my arms and fly, but I can choose to depend on an airplane to carry my into the sky. And in a similar way I can not will myself to be saved from sin, but I can choose to rely on God to do it for me.
I find it amusing that you say that is is faith that you believe and claim you are among the chosen, when you claim faith itself is all God's doing. So, you can not claim to have faith that you are chosen, you can only claim God has given you faith that you are chosen. Which means you could be a recipicant of what Calvin called evanescent grace* in which God gives a 'fake grace' to the Reprobate to make them *think* and act as if they were Saved, and this only so that He could damn them with greater punishment for such deceptive behavior!

This false sense of security is so strong that it’s indistinguishable even to the believer (or non-believer who thinks he’s a believer). Or, as Calvin put it: “though none are enlightened into faith, and truly feel the efficacy of the Gospel, with the exception of those who are fore-ordained to salvation, yet experience shows that the reprobate are sometimes affected in a way so similar to the elect, that even in their own judgment there is no difference between them. “

What a sad theology and what a decietful God. But this is what happens when you substitute something else for the truth of the gospel being freely offered to all. One peice of bad theology always needs other bad peices to prop it up.

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, Go figure. You claim a totally illogical position and then try to defend it by making God scizophenic. If they were not chosen for salvaton and God gives them a blindness besides that, you can't turn around and say God did not cause them to be against him. That's ludicrous. God giving someone up is a different thing altogether than choosing them from eternity past for damnation. God may well have given them up because of their rebellion, but you can't claim someone is being rebellious when God left them no other choice.
If God if fact, chose them for damnation by not making salvation avaible to them, then, he did, in fact cause them to be reprobates with no hope of eternity with him. But of course, that's not the God of the Bible, that's the god of pagan determinism.

Do you have a comprehension problem? Why do you not seem to get what I am saying?

To be blinded and hardened by God only prevents the person to see and believe. God, by hardening and blinding a person, does not mean that God had made the person to be against Him. God does not, by hardening, cause people to be against Him or be God haters or be hostile towards Him or be an anti-God. When God hardened and blinded Israel (saved the chosen remnants), He did not cause them to be against Him, but that, He caused them to not be able to see and not be able to believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ. To not be able to see and not be able to believe is not the same as being against God. The former is about ability and the latter about attitude or relationship. Very much different.

And the rest of your arguments there are just a repetition, and of which I had in my past posts addressed and made refutation. So I will not go full circle here.

Tong
R0612

 

[JunChosen]

Another put down. I've read Acts 10 many times. Perhaps if you made your point instead of making vague statements?

Another put down? Vague statements? FYI, it was you who brought up Acts 10 without really knowing the contents therein. I'm not going to give you the answer on a silver platter!!

Before you converse with anyone, make sure you are armed with knowledge of the subject at hand. And, BTW, it is not a shame to say I don't know it.

 

[Renniks]

To not be able to see and not be able to believe is not the same as being against God. The former is about ability and the latter about attitude or relationship. Very much different.

To not be able to see and believe because God made you born incapable of doing so, is the issue. Being made hard to punish you for rebellion is another thing entirely. You can't rebel against what you are incapable of receiving. But if you indeed are capable and have the same chance as the one who humbled himself, then you are receiving just punishment.

 

[Renniks]

Another put down? Vague statements? FYI, it was you who brought up Acts 10 without really knowing the contents therein. I'm not going to give you the answer on a silver platter!!

Before you converse with anyone, make sure you are armed with knowledge of the subject at hand. And, BTW, it is not a shame to say I don't know it.

I do know it. I'm asking what you are referring to about Cornelius, which you have not answered. I can't discuss an issue you have not made clear.

 

[JunChosen]

I do know it. I'm asking what you are referring to about Cornelius, which you have not answered. I can't discuss an issue you have not made clear.

I did in Post #1652 the first paragraph.

Again I don't think you have observed Cornelius as well as you think that you had. FYI, Cornelius was already saved before the angel appeared to him and not as you have said.

Read Acts 10:2 very, very carefully. A nonbeliever would NEVER do verse 2.

Is it clear enough? Did you get it this time?

 

[Renniks]

I did in Post #1652 the first paragraph.

Again I don't think you have observed Cornelius as well as you think that you had. FYI, Cornelius was already saved before the angel appeared to him and not as you have said.

Read Acts 10:2 very, very carefully. A nonbeliever would NEVER do verse 2.

Is it clear enough? Did you get it this time?

A believer in what? Did Cornelius understand who Jesus was and that he was God in the flesh sent to forgive sins? Was he " saved" before he knew who Jesus was?

 

[JunChosen]

A believer in what? Did Cornelius understand who Jesus was and that he was God in the flesh sent to forgive sins? Was he " saved" before he knew who Jesus was?

As I've alluded to in the past and so say I again, you have no understanding of and no idea whatsoever what the true Gospel is all about. You have no inkling what Acts 10:2 is saying. But let me help you.

1. A devout man. What does "devout" mean?
2. One that "feared" God. What does "fear" mean?
3. Gave much alms to the people. What does "gave much alms to the people" mean?
4.Prayed to God alway. What does "prayed to God alway" mean?

Would you say only a child of God will act upon the above? Now do you believe that Cornelius was a believer before the angel came to him?

Would you say you are a hypocrite by saying only those who believe will be saved and no one else?

John 20:29:
"Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou have seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

You should review your theology. They're full of holes.

 

[Tong2020]

Why would God preserving those who are faithful to him go against my belief? God blesses the faithful, as I said. Doesn't mean they are always given an easy path, but God will not abondon those who are faithful to cling to him.
And as I said before, Paul says they were not hardend to the point of not being able to believe.
10May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever.” 11I ask then, did they stumble so as to lose their share? Absolutely not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel jealous. "

Apparently you believe Paul was wrong and they stumbled beyond recovery.

As I pointed out, God preserving His chosen people, is an act of God that in effect, takes away the possibility of these people being lost or being condemned. Why? First, simply because that is what it means to preserve. Secondly, because if these people are lost unto unbelief, then God would have failed in preserving them.

You ask "Why would God preserving those who are faithful to him go against my belief?" Is it not your belief that you are saved because, by your own "free will" you have chosen to believe? Is it not your belief that you can, by your own "free will", chose to continue believing or to stop believing? With that belief, what is the sense and meaning of God preserving you, when God can't stop you if and when you stop believing? What happens to His preserving when one who have the same belief as you, at the point he chose to stop believing in Him?

Even if you keep saying and repeat saying and insist a million times over such repeated statement "Paul says they were not hardend to the point of not being able to believe." that will not make it the truth. Why can't you be humble enough to accept that you misuse or misunderstood the scriptures you cited there? I say that because, such interpretation of scriptures runs contrary to the scriptural definition of what their having been "hardened" or "blinded" means as clearly pointed out in John 12:37-40. Also, such incorrect interpretation of those scriptures renders what mystery Paul revealed to us in Romans 11:25, to be meaningless, senseless, insignificant, and irrelevant. But I think I somehow know now of your misuse of those verses. Have you not admitted not knowing what Romans 11:25 means? That sure speaks a lot of your incorrect misunderstanding.

If you will not run away from the truth in John 12:37-40, and accept the truth it says about Israel's hardening and blinding, that might lighten up things for you regarding Romans 11. And I could lend you a hand in that, if you need one.

Tong
R0613

 

[Tong2020]

Lol, this is absurd. Yes, those who call on the Lord are believers, because they have chosen to believe! You just can't get it into your head that belief isn't irresistably imposed on us, can you?

I see that you don't even realize that you lol about yourself.

You just admitted "Yes, those who call on the Lord are believers, because they have chosen to believe!" So, you have just refuted your own belief that all man, that is, "everyone", can call on the Lord. So, not all men , that is, not everyone, can call on the Lord, but only believers can obviously call on the Lord. I think this is settled.

Going to another issue then, you asked "You just can't get it into your head that belief isn't irresistably imposed on us, can you?" I don't believe that belief is irresistably imposed on people. So, no issue there.

Tong
R0614

 

[Renniks]

Would you say only a child of God will act upon the above? Now do you believe that Cornelius was a believer before the angel came to him?

Truth is Cornelius was a devout man, that's all we know. We don't even know what he believed about God. Just that he prayed, etc. So do many of many religions. You seem to be going beyond what the scripture tells us. The important thing is what happens when he learns the truth about Jesus.