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Featured Saved Or Predestined ???

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Pianoworldstage, Apr 29, 2020.

  1. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”[e] 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

    Everyone means...shocker! Everyone. If anyone does this: "declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead," they will be saved. See, not complicated at all. No strawmen, just truth from scripture.
     
  2. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    There's a difference between faith being God's doing and faith coming from God? If I give you something, it's not my doing that you have been given it? What?
     
  3. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    As I already said, he was chosen for an apostle because God knew he would believe. This has nothing to do with him being elected to salvation. If I'm chosen for a task because someone knows I will obey and do the task, does that mean they chose my obedience for me?
     
  4. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    If you are not chosen to be saved from death, by default you are chosen for death. I'm sure it would not be a great comfort that you tell the person who is drowning that you don't choose death for them, you just refuse to offer them a way to live.
     
  5. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    No. It's a staple of the Calvinist belief system, but it's not biblical.
     
  6. kcnalp

    kcnalp Active Member

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    John 12:39-40
    39 Therefore they could not believe, because Isaiah said again:
    40 "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts,

    Amen Jesus, You can do that. You don't have to ask anyone's permission.
     
  7. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    I am only appealing to the undeniable truth that regarding God's election, the choices of God are determined by God's nature, and to the undeniable truth that we don't know exactly how that is like, and to the undeniable truth that we do not have the same nature as God. Is the appeal to the truth even is objectionable to you?

    You refer to Jesus as the perfect image of the Father. And I agree. But it does not mean that knowledge of that necessarily means that you know the Father perfectly or that you know the nature of God perfectly. Having pointed that out, if you want for us to go to Jesus, then let's see what Jesus did in the matter of election. Jesus had chosen His disciples, the apostles. You can just go over the NT scriptures, and you'll find out that it was Him who chose first and had chosen as He willed, as He pleased, and with purpose, and all in accordance and obedience to the Father's will.

    You contend that "..God died for every person who ever lived." with reference to the scriptures you quoted. It seems to me that you don't really understand what you say there, which I could not let pass without pointing it out here. God is immortal. Now, that is for another topic. I just felt I should point this out.

    So, going back, I'd say that, that again is a misuse of said scriptures. For scriptures clearly says that Jesus Christ was sent to save His people, to save His sheep, to save those given to Him by the Father. Does those clear scriptures, at least, sound like saving every person who ever lived?

    You said "Why do we regard no one according to the flesh? Because Christ died for everyone you will ever meet. " I would ask, to whom was Paul addressing his letter? Was it not to the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia and not to all mankind for that matter? So, with regards your question, Paul was saying that we don't regard the Christians according to the flesh, for the reasons he gave in the preceding verses. In other words, what Paul said there applies to the Christian believers only for whom Jesus Christ died for, and not necessarily to all man that ever lived and ever will live. For if that necessarily applies to all man that ever lived and ever will live, Paul would have regarded the Jews, the Israelites like so, which he did not, but whom he regarded to the contrary, as his brethren, his countrymen according to the flesh.

    Tong
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  8. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    That was what I was afraid of all along. You don't know what I am talking about.

    And while you say that, you here run away from my arguments in my post and I quote below:

    Simple? You can't even seem to give an honest answer to these simple questions: How does God preserve the believers? What does being preserved by means?

    Simple? You haven't even attempt to refute this simple argument: If God preserves them faithful, they will be preserved, that is, kept to be faithful. The preserving is God's responsibility, not them who are being preserved by God.


    So, please don't run away from them and go ahead answer and refute.

    Oh I did sir. And if you missed that, let me address that here. I agree that God preserves believers. I hope you now can get that in your head.

    You were the one who brought out this matter of preserving, saying in one of your post that God preserves those who are faithful to Him. And I only responded accordingly. So, it is on you to tell us what you want the word "preserves" to mean when you used it, so readers don't have to assume anything regarding that.

    With regards the scriptures you quoted:

    Philippians 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.

    It would be good if you understand that it is God who works in the Christian. And what is it that God works in them? Both, for them to will and to do. To will and do what? God's good pleasure.

    Tong
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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 4:17 AM
  9. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    You said this in response to my post and I quote "In Gen. 3:15, when God said "And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel.", would you say that those scriptures speaks of a promise of salvation? If so, was the promise given to believers?"

    So, you see a promise there. And you contend that it is a promise to believers. As for me, what I see there is a promise, spoken in prophecy, about the future defeat of the serpent, that is the one who deceived Eve, which eventually led to the offense of Adam. And yes, the promise was concerning and was given to the Serpent, not to people, more so, to believers.

    You said this in response to my post and I quote "In Gen. 8:21, when God said, "I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done.", would you say that those scriptures speaks of a promise of God? If so, was the promise given to believers?"

    You seem to demonstrate some confusion there in your first statement sir. What is it, is it a promise given to believers or to all mankind. Can't be both, for all mankind aren't all believers. As for me, it is a promise to Noah and his 7 family members that time, and to all his posterity.

    You said this in response to my post and I quote "In Gen. 12:1-3, when God said, "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father’s house, To a land that I will show you. I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.", would you say that those scriptures speaks of a promise of God? If so, was the promise given to believers?"

    Yes, we can say that, that the promise was given to Abraham and his "spiritual descendants", and so not to all mankind (past, present, future).

    And so, considering all the forgoing, your statements, and I quote "Who are the promises given to? Ultimately, they are for believers." had been shown to be false.

    Tong
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    Last edited: Jun 30, 2020 at 4:20 AM
  10. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    And Paul qualifies those who calls on the name of the Lord, in the following verses, saying:

    14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?

    If you don't understand that until now, I guess I'll just have to just leave you then with your folly and misuse of those scriptures.

    Tong
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  11. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    Yes sir, there's a difference between faith being God's doing and faith coming from God. If you can't seem to see the difference, that's obviously a problem and your problem.

    Please ask a friend who can help you out with seeing the difference between faith being God's doing and faith coming from God.

    Tong
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  12. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    As I pointed out, you fail to see what that necessarily meant with regards to his salvation. He can't be a witness and apostle if he remains to be an unbeliever. Now, if you deny that, then so be it with you. However, your denial of that does not refute it in any way shape or form.

    Tong
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  13. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    Since you just repeat what you said, I will likewise just repeat what I said, "If you insist of it to be that way by default, so be it with you then. That may be your choice, but that's not how it is."

    Your analogy of the salvation of God there is flawed. I suggest you consider the analogy used in scriptures, such as that of slaves or of lost sheep. Looking into your analogy, it seems to me that you seem to have no confidence in God, that His election is just, righteous, and wise.

    Tong
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  14. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    So, you don't believe that there is such thing as irresistible grace. So, why bring that issue? Oh you are referring to the Calvinist belief. If you have an issue with that against them, please bring that to them and not to me. I am not a Calvinist. I am a Christian. How many times do I have to point that out to you so that you get that into your head?

    Tong
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  15. Tong2020

    Tong2020 Active Member

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    God's standard of righteousness is faith.

    Tong
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  16. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    No, you were appealing to mystery. There is no mystery in the theory of individual election, BTW. It's simple. God chose some for heave and some for hell and that's that. So, throwing up smoke screens is always done to conceal that stark ugliness of a bad doctrine.

    Sure, he chose people with a purpose, but they were not chosen for salvation but for service and in fact, that is proven by the fact that one betrayed him and one denied him. So, it's not really any different than God choosing Jacob to be the head of the nation, even imperfect as he was, or choosing Samson for a job, even though Samson was not always obedient. These have nothing to do with individual election to salvation.

    So, you jump from Jesus dying for all to all being saved. Two different things. All being saved is universalism. Christ dying for all is universal atonement, which is biblical, universalism is not, because we are plainly told many will reject his offer.

    15And He died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died for them and was raised again. 16So from now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.

    What you said above is not defensible according to what the verse actually says. It says right there he died for all, not that he died for only those who were saved. You are just imposing that on scripture because it runs counter to your theology.
     
  17. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, you have a different interpretation of what this preservation is. I have not had much sleep the last two days, so will find a commentary that expresses my belief of what this means. See Psalm 41:2 for example.


    Barnes commentary:
    " acts of piety will be partially rewarded on the earth; or that the divine favor will be shown to those who deal kindly with others. This principle is often referred to in the Scriptures. See Psalm 1:3, note; Psalm 37:3-4, note; Psalm 37:11, note; Psalm 37:23-26, note; Psalm 37:37, note; compare Matthew 5:5; 1 Timothy 4:8. The par ticular application here is, that if any one showed kindness to him that was sick or enfeebled by disease, he might expect that God would interpose in his case under similar circumstances, and would "preserve" him, or "keep him alive."
    It is not to be interpreted as teaching that this would be universally true, or that he who did this would never die, but the meaning is, that he might look for special divine aid and favor, when he in turn should be sick."

    And he shall be blessed upon the earth - This is in accordance with the doctrine noticed above, and so often referred to in the Psalms and elsewhere, that the effect of religion will be to promote happiness and prosperity in this life."

    I don't see why you would take this preservation as some kind of irresistible faith imposed on the person. That's way off.
     
  18. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Yes, but it's conditional on thier willingness to cooperate with his work, as the verse tells us.
     
  19. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    You just contradicted your self here. First you agree they are for believers (Abraham' s spiritual decendants and then you say it's not. I have no idea what that means.
     
  20. Renniks

    Renniks Well-Known Member

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    Um yeah, Paul promotes evangelizing. Doesn't change a thing. Everyone who calls on God is saved. And God calls all. Not all hear and believe.
    Or perhaps you could explain what the difference is, if not I'll go on believing there's no difference.
     
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