Should the meaning of Greek words affect the interpretation of the passages they are found in?

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Spiritual Israelite

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It's not a mortal body.​
But, you say they can die, don't you? If so, that means they have mortal bodies. I am not going to accept you redefining words. That goes over the line for me.

This is what I believe - and it's not the traditional theology or understanding of the church, or of pre-millennialists, and I'm probably going to be called a heretic by some posters here, soon, because you've never heard this "theology" before:

Firstly, bear in mind that I do not see in scripture either the thousand years or the NHNE as commencing before the return of Christ, but neither do I see the NHNE as commencing only a thousand years after the return of Christ, nor do I see mortals after the return of Christ in the NHNE or the first millennium following the return of Christ.

Note: Only Christ (Creator) is immortal in the sense of never being able to die a 2nd death:

-- He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. ---
(1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version).​

The bodies of resurrected saints will be as immortal as Adam's body was before he sinned and became mortal. Adam was immortal before he sinned and began to die:
What is your last statement here based on? Why would you not believe that resurrected saints will have immortal bodies just like Jesus has?

What is your understanding of this passage:

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

".. you will most definitely die." (Genesis 2:17).

"You will NOT most definitely die. You will be like God" (who alone is immortal, and cannot die). (Genesis 3:3-4).

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1. Death:

Mankind's first death is Adam's death. It came to all the children of Adam:

Through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned Romans 5:12

2. Resurrection:

Mankind both has already, and will yet experience one resurrection from death - Christ's resurrection, which takes place in Him just as much as death took place in Adam:

-- I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die -- John 11:25

3. 2nd death

The 2nd death will be experienced by those who had been resurrected, but turn away at the close of the millennium (like Adam did in the Garden of Eden),

because mankind is a created being. We cannot be immortal in the same sense as Christ's immortality. The bodies of resurrected saints will be as immortal as Adam's body was before he sinned and became mortal. Resurrected saints can become mortal again, and die a 2nd death. We are not the Creator.

Whoever lives and believes in Jesus shall never die. Only those who live and believe in Jesus shall never die (John 11:25-26). Not those who turn later.

So I believe that at the close of the (literal) millennium some resurrected saints will sin again, and follow Satan. They will turn and follow Satan just like Adam did in the Garden of Eden.

I do not see in scripture either the thousand years or the NHNE as commencing before the return of Christ, but neither do I see the NHNE as commencing only a thousand years after the return of Christ, nor do I see mortals after the return of Christ in the NHNE or the millennium.​
Resurrected saints sinning again, etc. I'm sorry, but I can't make any sense out of anything you're saying here. To the point where I don't even know how to respond to this other than to say I completely disagree with everything you're saying here.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Your claim of this earth being "Regenerated" is "False", it will be a completely "New Creation"

Revelation 21:1-5KJV
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
When something is regenerated it is made new. It seems that you need an English lesson. What is your understanding of this verse:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Do you believe the meek will only inherit the earth for a temporary amount of time? If so, then what this verse says is not very significant. But, if the meek will inherit the earth forever, that makes this verse very significant.
 
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Spiritual Israelite

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Paul already spoke about the second coming of Christ in chapter 4.
He did not change the subject in chapter 5. It was a mistake for them to put a chapter break after chapter 4. He relates the day of the Lord directly to the second coming of Christ just as Peter does in 2 Peter 3.

Here is talking about times and epochs, specifically "The day of the Lord." According to the prophets, the Day of the Lord, which is attended by destruction, takes place years before the coming of Jesus, which is why Paul treats it like a different subject.

It's not NT prophecy. It's commentary on OT prophecy.
Years before the coming of Jesus? How in the world are you coming up with that? Is that your understanding of 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well? That passage is about the same event (the day of the Lord that will come as a thief).
 

Zao is life

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But, you say they can die, don't you? If so, that means they have mortal bodies. I am not going to accept you redefining words. That goes over the line for me.
Humans are not God. Adam was only like God in the sense that he was made in the image and likeness of God. But he wanted to be like God in the sense of having God's immortality. Whether you accept it or not, scripture states very plainly (very plainly) that Jesus alone has the sort of immortality of being alive forever.

Whether you accept it or not, Adam's immortality had a condition: If he broke the commandment, he would die. It's the devil who convinced mankind that he would not die but would have God's everlasting immortality.

And so Adam broke the commandment, and died. That's when the man (creature), who was immortal, became mortal. Likewise, whether you accept it or not, humans will only have immortality after the resurrection until many of them choose to follow Satan's lie at the close of the millennium, like Adam did in the Garden of Eden, which is something that can only occur after the Resurrection at the return of Christ.

Humans are not God, who alone is immortal so that He cannot die, and the Son of God who is also the Son of man, following His Resurrection, alone is immortal forever and ever, so that He is alive forevermore and will never die a second time (second death).

The immortality theology you believe (your understanding of immortality) teaches that man (the creature) is like God (our Creator) - but scripture teaches that Jesus alone is immortal in the sense you demand that man too posesses in himself Christ's immortality.

Only the Son of man, Jesus Christ, has life in Himself. The rest of us do not. Just like Adam our coming immortality will be conditioned upon our obedience to the Word of God, through faith.

Only Jesus has life in Himself.

Your understanding of immortality is faulty, IMO.
 
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CadyandZoe

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He did not change the subject in chapter 5. It was a mistake for them to put a chapter break after chapter 4. He relates the day of the Lord directly to the second coming of Christ just as Peter does in 2 Peter 3.
On the contrary, Paul begins a new section with the phrase "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren . . ." Alerting the reader to a change of topic.
Years before the coming of Jesus?
Yes.
How in the world are you coming up with that?
Study. I tracked down every passage in the Bible concerning the Day of the Lord and got a comprehensive picture. The Day of the Lord, proper, is the time when God rules on earth and over the entire earth. The run-up to that time period is when all the darkness, smoke, earthquakes and destruction takes place, and it happens over about 3 or 4 years time. AND the destruction is localized to the Land of Israel. Peter is talking about his fellow Jews when he speaks of "they."
Is that your understanding of 2 Peter 3:10-12 as well?
Yes.
That passage is about the same event (the day of the Lord that will come as a thief).
Yes.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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Humans are not God. Adam was only like God in the sense that he was made in the image and likeness of God. But he wanted to be like God in the sense of having God's immortality. Whether you accept it or not, scripture states very plainly (very plainly) that Jesus alone has the sort of immortality of being alive forever.
Are you under the impression that I believe anyone else but Jesus currently "has the sort of immortality of being alive forever"? I don't believe that. I don't believe we will be changed to have immortal bodies like He has until He returns at the last trumpet.

Whether you accept it or not, Adam's immortality had a condition: If he broke the commandment, he would die. It's the devil who convinced mankind that he would not die but would have God's everlasting immortality.
What does this have to do with what Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52?

And so Adam broke the commandment, and died. That's when the man (creature), who was immortal, became mortal. Likewise, whether you accept it or not, humans will only have immortality after the resurrection until many of them choose to follow Satan's lie at the close of the millennium, like Adam did in the Garden of Eden, which is something that can only occur after the Resurrection at the return of Christ.
Of course I don't accept that. This is a private interpretation that you have come up with that no one else has. Which is a common thing on this forum. Do you believe God has revealed this only to you? Is that the kind of thing God does?

Humans are not God, who alone is immortal so that He cannot die, and the Son of God who is also the Son of man, following His Resurrection, alone is immortal forever and ever, so that He is alive forevermore and will never die a second time (second death).

The immortality theology you believe (your understanding of immortality) teaches that man (the creature) is like God (our Creator) - but scripture teaches that Jesus alone is immortal in the sense you demand that man too is immortal.

Your understanding of immortality is faulty, IMO.
You talk as if I believe any person except Jesus Christ is CURRENTLY immortal. I have never said that. I believe that when Christ returns at the last trumpet, our bodies will THEN be made immortal.
 

Spiritual Israelite

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On the contrary, Paul begins a new section with the phrase "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren . . ." Alerting the reader to a change of topic.
No, he was saying "as to the times and epochs" of what he had been talking about, it was not of any of their concern. It wasn't his point to give them any kind of exact timing on when Christ would return to gather His own to Himself and destroy His enemies.

Tell me, when do you believe the following will happen:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Do you believe this verse is talking about the same day Paul references in 1 Thess 4:14-17?

Yes.

Study. I tracked down every passage in the Bible concerning the Day of the Lord and got a comprehensive picture. The Day of the Lord, proper, is the time when God rules on earth and over the entire earth. The run-up to that time period is when all the darkness, smoke, earthquakes and destruction takes place, and it happens over about 3 or 4 years time. AND the destruction is localized to the Land of Israel. Peter is talking about his fellow Jews when he speaks of "they."

Yes.

Yes.
So, you reduce the heavens and the earth to "The Land of Israel". I can't take this seriously.
 

Truth7t7

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When you were saved did He make all things new?
Can you see "I Create" below, will you now triple down in your rebellion?

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

Truth7t7

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When something is regenerated it is made new. It seems that you need an English lesson. What is your understanding of this verse:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Do you believe the meek will only inherit the earth for a temporary amount of time? If so, then what this verse says is not very significant. But, if the meek will inherit the earth forever, that makes this verse very significant.
Can you see "I Create" below, will you also triple down in your rebellion?

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 
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WPM

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Can you see "I Create" below, will you now triple down in your rebellion?

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
You better tone down your attitude or I will permanently block your nonsense. Grow up!
 
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Truth7t7

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You better tone down your attitude or I will permanently block your nonsense. Grow up!
Let God Be True!

Isaiah 65:17KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
 

CadyandZoe

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No, he was saying "as to the times and epochs" of what he had been talking about, it was not of any of their concern. It wasn't his point to give them any kind of exact timing on when Christ would return to gather His own to Himself and destroy His enemies.

Tell me, when do you believe the following will happen:

2 Thessalonians 1:10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Do you believe this verse is talking about the same day Paul references in 1 Thess 4:14-17?
Yes.
So, you reduce the heavens and the earth to "The Land of Israel". I can't take this seriously.
You reduce the Day of the Lord to a 24 hour period?
 

Zao is life

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I don't believe we will be changed to have immortal bodies like He has until He returns at the last trumpet.
You are partially wrong. There's something missing in what you say above:

In the resurrection we will have the immortality of Adam (the creature), which was in Christ (our Creator), not the immortality of Christ (our Creator) Himself, who alone has life in Himself. who alone is immortal:

"For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has given to the Son to have life within Himself" John 5:26

-- He alone possesses immortality and lives in unapproachable light, whom no human has ever seen or is able to see. To him be honor and eternal power! Amen. --- (1 Timothy 6:15-16, NETfree version).

"I am the First and the Last, and the Living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am alive for ever and ever, Amen. And I have the keys of hades and of death." Revelation 1:17-18.

Our life is in Christ, and in Him alone. The Spirit of God breathed life into Adam and he became a living soul. That's why we must be born of the Spirit in order to comprehend and experience the Kingdom of God. In the resurrection we will have the immortality of Adam, which was in Christ, not the immortality of Christ Himself, who alone has life in Himself. To believe that we are incapable of dying after we have regained the immortality of Adam through the resurrection, is based on not fully understanding the above, and this:​

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------​

".. you will most definitely die." (Genesis 2:17).

"You will NOT most definitely die. You will be like God" (who alone is immortal, who alone has life in Himself, and cannot die a second death). (Genesis 3:3-4).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

1. Death:

Mankind's first death is Adam's death. It came to all the children of Adam:

Through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as all sinned Romans 5:12

2. Resurrection:

Mankind both has already, and will yet experience one resurrection from death - Christ's resurrection, which takes place in Him just as much as death took place in Adam:

-- I am the Resurrection and the Life!
He who believes in Me,
though he die,
yet he shall live.
And whoever lives and believes in Me
shall never die -- John 11:25​

3. 2nd death:

The lake of fire IS the 2nd death:

And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hades delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works. And death and hades were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.

And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. (Revelation 20:13-15).

No one can die a 2nd death before he has been resurrected, because no one gets back Adam's immortality (which is in Christ) that Adam had before he lost it and became mortal, and eternal life is in Christ. Therefore the bodies of resurrected saints will be just as immortal as Adam's body was before he sinned and became mortal. Adam was immortal before he sinned and began to die, but His immortality was not the same as Christ's (who is God), rather, Adam's eternal life|immortality that he had before he sinned and began to die, was in Christ.
 
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Zao is life

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On the contrary, Paul begins a new section with the phrase "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren . . ." Alerting the reader to a change of topic.
No. Not a new section. Paul had just told them about the resurrection in the day of the LORD, and he wasn't so lacking that he did not know that the very first question in their minds would be, "When will this happen?", so he tells them. He's not changing the topic at all - and in the text itself in the oldest manuscripts + the Received Greek Text - there is no chapter division between what he had been saying and what he was closing his statement with, which was, to put in in plain English, "So now, as to the timing of when this will take place, you do not need me to write to you about that, because you already know that the Day of the LORD will come as a thief in the night."

You really are reading whatever you want to into the text.
 

Davy

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Take a look at the following three Greek words:

1. érgon (Strongs Greek 02041)

Throughout the New Testament and without exception, érgon (works) always refers to the works of God / Christ, or of men, or of Satan (the vast majority of times it refers to the works of men):-

....
Without God's help in understanding His Word by The Holy Spirit, it all might as well be in a foreign language one can't understand. So no, Biblical languages in the manuscripts are NOT a limitation in understanding God's written Word, especially if you know those languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek.
 

Zao is life

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What is your last statement here based on? Why would you not believe that resurrected saints will have immortal bodies just like Jesus has?
As above. We will have immortal bodies just like Adam had, not just like Christ has, because we do not have life in ourselves like Christ has, we are not immortal the way Christ is, who alone is immortal, but Adam's life was in Christ, his immortality was in Christ, but the creature is capable of dying, of becoming mortal, though God had given the creature immortality by breathing His own life into Adam. The creature is only immortal while he remains in the Vine. We do not have life in ourselves.
 
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Zao is life

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Without God's help in understanding His Word by The Holy Spirit, it all might as well be in a foreign language one can't understand. So no, Biblical languages in the manuscripts are NOT a limitation in understanding God's written Word, especially if you know those languages, Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek.
Even so, some passages the best Greek scholars|translators find difficult to translate, such as Daniel 9:27, which is why it has almost as many different readings as there are English versions of the Bible. 2 Peter 3:10 is definitely telling us that there will be a burning of the present heavens and earth and a destruction of the ungodly, but is Peter necessarily referring to the works of rocks (the earth) when he talks about ergon (works), and about the physical elements of the earth that is to be burned when he talks about soicheion?
 

Zao is life

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What is your understanding of this passage:

1 John 3:1 See what great love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him. 2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
It's telling us that because our life is in Christ, we will be like Him, just as Adam was created in the image and likeness of God, but has no life in himself. Adam, the creature, is not like God the Creator Himself. The devil's suggestion that Adam could be like God Himself in any way, shape or form was a lie, because God has life in Himself, unlike immortal humans, when they are immortal (as Adam was before he sinned and died and became mortal).
 
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Truth7t7

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Yes.

You reduce the Day of the Lord to a 24 hour period?
The Lord returns in a day and hour, in final judgement (The End)

Matthew 24:50-51KJV
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Truth7t7

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Yes.

You reduce the Day of the Lord to a 24 hour period?
From a poster that believes and teaches the false doctrine in "Universalism" in that everyone will be redeemed, even Satan and the fallen angels "Sad"