Spotting Heretics

[heartwashed]

Usually when we see pride (or other types of sin) in other people, it is three times as evident on our own faces (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).

 

[Marymog]

Usually when we see pride (or other types of sin) in other people, it is three times as evident on our own faces (Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42).

Hello heartwashed,

Your theory makes no sense to me. Putting your theory into practice means that if I see someone stealing and I judge them for it that means it is 3 times as evident on my own face? I am a theif also.

If I see someone walk by a hungry, coatless and homeless person on a cold night and I judge them for not helping that person it is 3 times as evident in my own face? I am a heartless Christian who is not following the example/teachings of Christ.

Your theory suggest that every time I judge someone for doing something wrong...I am doing the same thing 3 times as much as the person I am judging? Can you not see how your theory makes no sense?

Those passages actually refer to HYPOCRITICAL JUDGEMENT!

Bible Study Mary

 

[Philip James]

So all the martyrs were abandoned by Jesus?

?? Whatever gave you that idea? The martyrs were not destroyed but are very much alive and part of the communion of the saints, Polycarp qnd Ignatius being obvious examples..
There community still exists today and will forever!

They were direct descendants from the apostles, having the scriptures in their purest form, copied and translated into their own languages.

Please trace their community back to the apostles for me of you are going to make such a claim..

such as the Celtic church in Britain and the Thomas Christians in India, and even the Waldenses on Rome's own footsteps

The 'Celtic church' in Britain was and is catholic. You're grasping at straws..

The Waldenses? Really? Where is their community today? And please trace it back to the apostles for me..

I will admit I am not very familiar with the Church of the East, but it is my understanding that they also hold to the Sacraments.. Are you a member of this community? That would make for an interesting discussion..

No one has the authority to take our sacred texts, establish their own community and say 'here is the Church'..

Even Paul, submitted himself to the Church to ensure that he had not run and was not running in vain.. And he claimed to be the last apostle.

Neither can anyone take for themselves the One Cup and the One Bread that Jesus gave to the apostles.. It must be received from those with the authority to give it.. Indeed it is participation in the Eucharist that binds and identifies the community of the apostles..

Those that make a pretense with a powerless 'symbol', Paul talked abot when he said 'they have a form of religion but deny its power'

Pax et Bonum

 

[ScottA]

Scott, Scott, Scott. For a man who wrote a book, you are not book smart.

The Church DID NOT depart from the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. SOME men did....but The Church did not. The TRUTH did not stop being taught. Some men started teaching OPPOSITE of what The Church was teaching, and those false teachers tickled the ears of other men....but THE TRUTH has been taught by The Church for 2,000 years.

So if you were to be honest and truly represent what Scripture says your sentence would say; The departure of some of the men in the church occurred in direct proportion to Christ's words regarding Him coming "quickly" and that those things relevant to His coming (again) would "shortly come to pass." Which is to say, some false teachers (just as Peter foretold) came "quickly" into the church, and the warning of Christ against the "evil servant" did "shortly come to pass."

Keeping it real...Mary

Are you saying that the Catholic church has always been teaching--or even now teaches, that Jesus came quickly and all that He said came to pass?

Because history does not attest to that at all.

 

[Marymog]

Are you saying that the Catholic church has always been teaching--or even now, that Jesus came quickly and all that He said came to pass?

Because history does not attest to that at all.

No, I am not. I am saying that I don't agree with your theory that "at the beginning of the first 1,500 years that the departure of the church took place".

I am saying what I have said many times before on this forum and what Scripture teaches: The church has always been teaching the Truth and never stopped. Some men have rejected that Truth and started their own denominations; but the Truth has never stopped being taught. If the Truth has been stopped being taught then how will we ever be free (John 6:45)?

THE CHURCH did not depart from anything......false prophets who tickled men's ears departed from The Church!

Jesus taught the Apostles the Truth.
The Apostles taught other men the Truth (ex: Timithy, Titus).
Those men then taught other men the Truth.
Some men rejected SOME of that truth and started teaching their own truth mixed with the Truth that they were taught. They started their own church and tickled the ears of others who didn't know any better. Also known as false prophets. If there are false prophets (men telling lies) then that means there a prophets who are telling the Truth!
But that didn't stop the men of The Church from still teaching the Truth and passing it on to other faithful men to continue to teach the Truth....You know Scott...Kind of like Scripture says (2 Timothy 2:2).

If my memory serves me correctly you have stated that all churches have some parts of the Truth. But that theory doesn't work! Anytime you teach a lie (false teaching) mixed in with the Truth (true teaching) you instantly become a false prophet. That means Christianity will never know the Truth.....and Scripture does not teach that.

 

[ScottA]

No, I am not. I am saying that I don't agree with your theory that "at the beginning of the first 1,500 years that the departure of the church took place".

I am saying what I have said many times before on this forum and what Scripture teaches: The church has always been teaching the Truth and never stopped. Some men have rejected that Truth and started their own denominations; but the Truth has never stopped being taught. If the Truth has been stopped being taught then how will we ever be free (John 6:45)?

THE CHURCH did not depart from anything......false prophets who tickled men's ears departed from The Church!

Jesus taught the Apostles the Truth.
The Apostles taught other men the Truth (ex: Timithy, Titus).
Those men then taught other men the Truth.
Some men rejected SOME of that truth and started teaching their own truth mixed with the Truth that they were taught. They started their own church and tickled the ears of others who didn't know any better. Also known as false prophets. If there are false prophets (men telling lies) then that means there a prophets who are telling the Truth!
But that didn't stop the men of The Church from still teaching the Truth and passing it on to other faithful men to continue to teach the Truth....You know Scott...Kind of like Scripture says (2 Timothy 2:2).

If my memory serves me correctly you have stated that all churches have some parts of the Truth. But that theory doesn't work! Anytime you teach a lie (false teaching) mixed in with the Truth (true teaching) you instantly become a false prophet. That means Christianity will never know the Truth.....and Scripture does not teach that.

It's not a "theory", it's history.

Enjoy your delusion while it lasts. But do take heed of the warnings...I have not been speaking of my own.

 

[heartwashed]

Hello heartwashed,

Your theory makes no sense to me. Putting your theory into practice means that if I see someone stealing and I judge them for it that means it is 3 times as evident on my own face? I am a theif also.

If I see someone walk by a hungry, coatless and homeless person on a cold night and I judge them for not helping that person it is 3 times as evident in my own face? I am a heartless Christian who is not following the example/teachings of Christ.

Your theory suggest that every time I judge someone for doing something wrong...I am doing the same thing 3 times as much as the person I am judging? Can you not see how your theory makes no sense?

Those passages actually refer to HYPOCRITICAL JUDGEMENT!

Bible Study Mary

Seems to me like in your scenario above, you judge the person for not helping the homeless person but do not help that homeless person yourself.

The theory is as thus.

Any time we see sin on somebody else it is because that very sin exists in our own life and that is the reason why we see it on that other person.

If we did not have that sin in our own life we would be inclined to overlook it; it wouldn't bother us.

But certain sins do bother us when we see them on other people because we ourselves have the same sins and to us they are three times as evident on that other person as we see them existing in us.

You've probably heard the expression, "It takes one to know one."

Here is another passage on the issue.

Rom 2:1, Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2, But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3, And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4, Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5, But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6, Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

 

[Marymog]

Seems to me like in your scenario above, you judge the person for not helping the homeless person but do not help that homeless person yourself.

I can see where I didn't clarify my thought process on that and you would think that. My mistake. In the scenario I presented I would have helped the homeless person. Just because I "judge" another for not being a good Christian and helping that homeless person does not mean I have a beam in my eye! In other words, I am not being hypocritical; which is what those passages mean that you referenced.

Hope that helps, Mary

 

[heartwashed]

I can see where I didn't clarify my thought process on that and you would think that. My mistake. In the scenario I presented I would have helped the homeless person. Just because I "judge" another for not being a good Christian and helping that homeless person does not mean I have a beam in my eye! In other words, I am not being hypocritical; which is what those passages mean that you referenced.

Hope that helps, Mary

Actually, you should consider this passage.

Jas 4:11, Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12, There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

This is saying that when you judge your brother you cannot at the same time be a doer of the law; you are too busy judging to be able to live up to the standard that you are judging your brother over.

 

[Marymog]

Any time we see sin on somebody else it is because that very sin exists in our own life and that is the reason why we see it on that other person.

If we did not have that sin in our own life we would be inclined to overlook it; it wouldn't bother us.

But certain sins do bother us when we see them on other people because we ourselves have the same sins and to us they are three times as evident on that other person as we see them existing in us.

You've probably heard the expression, "It takes one to know one."

Here is another passage on the issue.

Rom 2:1, Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
Rom 2:2, But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
Rom 2:3, And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
Rom 2:4, Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5, But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6, Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Ok...I get your theory. Your theory suggests if I steal, I can't judge others for stealing. That is not true. I can still judge a thief and tell them what they are doing is sinful, against Scripture and they will go to hell. However whatever judgement I have just given them (they will go to hell) is the same judgement upon me; I will go to hell.

Can you quote the line in that passage that says "do not judge others"? It's not there. It tells you what will happen if you judge another if you are doing the same thing they are doing. It is saying we will not escape the judgment of God just like they won't escape the judgment of God if we are doing the same thing we just judged them for! If we aren't doing the same thing we are judging them for.....stealing for example....we won't face the same judgement of God.

Here is what Jesus said: “With the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.” In other words, Jesus indeed expects his disciples to judge, but he warns that they will be judged in a like manner.

So, once again, it comes back to being hypocritical. Don't judge someone for something when you are doing the same thing yourself. In other words; live righteous lives so our judgment of others behavior would not be a rash judgement, and our efforts in admonishing our neighbors would be effective.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

If you think you didn't commit a SIN (what you call an offending behavior, but Scripture doesn't) and the church says you did commit a SIN and you disagree with the decision of the church (what you call the sum totals of all believers) then what is that Ferris? By your own admitance CLEARLY you are at odds with a majority of the church. That IS a DIFFERENCE in doctrine.

You're trying so hard to be right when you're wrong. You know it, I know it. The passage is about 'when someone sins against you', not when you have doctrinal disagreements.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I didn't change what you said Ferris. I quoted what you said.

Why are you ignoring the fact that I said in the church there are those with particular callings and gifts of leadership? They alone are not the church, as it is in your denomination. The church is composed of all believers whether they have a spiritual gift of leadership or not. That does not mean the leadership does not function in their leadership roles.

 

[heartwashed]

Ok...I get your theory. Your theory suggests if I steal, I can't judge others for stealing. That is not true. I can still judge a thief and tell them what they are doing is sinful, against Scripture and they will go to hell. However whatever judgement I have just given them (they will go to hell) is the same judgement upon me; I will go to hell.

Can you quote the line in that passage that says "do not judge others"? It's not there. It tells you what will happen if you judge another if you are doing the same thing they are doing. It is saying we will not escape the judgment of God just like they won't escape the judgment of God if we are doing the same thing we just judged them for! If we aren't doing the same thing we are judging them for.....stealing for example....we won't face the same judgement of God.

Here is what Jesus said: “With the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.” In other words, Jesus indeed expects his disciples to judge, but he warns that they will be judged in a like manner.

So, once again, it comes back to being hypocritical. Don't judge someone for something when you are doing the same thing yourself. In other words; live righteous lives so our judgment of others behavior would not be a rash judgement, and our efforts in admonishing our neighbors would be effective.

All I will say to this is that it is a tendency in human beings that we tend to see our own sins on others people, only magnified as it sits on them; and that we rarely have the vision to see the same sins in our own lives even when those sins are right there in our hearts.

Therefore, any time I see a sin on someone else, it is a good practice to ask the Lord to search my heart as to whether that same sin is there in my own heart.

Is it possible that I might see a speck in my brother's eye when there isn't a beam in my own?

Certainly!

But usually that is only the case when I have seen that same sin in my own life magnified and have taken the steps necessary to remove that beam from my own eye in order that I might see clearly to remove the speck out of my brother's eye.

 

[Marymog]

Actually, you should consider this passage.

Jas 4:11, Speak not evil one of another, brethren. He that speaketh evil of his brother, and judgeth his brother, speaketh evil of the law, and judgeth the law: but if thou judge the law, thou art not a doer of the law, but a judge.
Jas 4:12, There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy: who art thou that judgest another?

This is saying that when you judge your brother you cannot at the same time be a doer of the law; you are too busy judging to be able to live up to the standard that you are judging your brother over.

And you should consider this passage: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Sooooo you do realize what that passage from James is saying? Don't You? Once again, that passage ALSO does NOT say do not judge.

If men can not judge other men then go and sin all you want.....then wait and see what happens when you get in front of a civil judge and in front of your church when they find out about your sin.

 

[Marymog]

Why are you ignoring the fact that I said in the church there are those with particular callings and gifts of leadership? They alone are not the church, as it is in your denomination. The church is composed of all believers whether they have a spiritual gift of leadership or not.

I didn't ignore your "fact". Help me out here and maybe I will better understand what YOU believe the leaders of a church are for: What does the "leadership" in your church do? Plan bake sales? Open the doors and turn on the lights before your church service? Pay the bills? Decide where the money is supposed to be spent?

Curious Mary

 

[heartwashed]

And you should consider this passage: Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

Sooooo you do realize what that passage from James is saying? Don't You? Once again, that passage ALSO does NOT say do not judge.

If men can not judge other men then go and sin all you want.....then wait and see what happens when you get in front of a civil judge and in front of your church when they find out about your sin.

I believe that I am judging righteous judgment in that I am simply bringing the word to bear on your situation and allowing it to do the judging.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

But if I were you, I would ask the Lord to search my heart for any pride that might be there; since you judged another person to have pride.

It just might be pride that will keep you from seeing your own pride if the Holy Ghost doesn't shed light on your situation.

 

[Marymog]

You're trying so hard to be right when you're wrong. You know it, I know it. The passage is about 'when someone sins against you', not when you have doctrinal disagreements.

I know it's about when someone sins against you. That is what I have been saying all along.


You changed SIN into offending behavior in a previous post! When someone SINS it is a violation of Scripture. I sincerely hope that the sum of all believers in your congregation teach your sheep what a SIN is. I also sincerely hope that when one of those sheep violates that teaching of Scripture, which is also the teaching of your congregation, that you will tell them that they have SINNED and treat them as a pagan or tax collector if they don't STOP sinning.......Just like Scripture says. I also hope whey you put it up to a vote and you 99% you have judged that the person has sinned that you treat the 1% as pagan/tax collectors also since they don't think it's a sin and ALSO disagree with your 'sum of all believers'.

You are wearing me out kiddo....

 

[Marymog]

I believe that I am judging righteous judgment ...

Matthew 7:1-5, Luke 6:41-42

 

[Ferris Bueller]

I didn't ignore your "fact". Help me out here and maybe I will better understand what YOU believe the leaders of a church are for: What does the "leadership" in your church do?

Leaders in the church (the body of Christ) are administrators and teachers.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You changed SIN into offending behavior

Good grief, you'll do anything to be right, lol!