Spotting Heretics

[amigo de christo]

Yup, YOU know the truth and everyone else is just a broken clock. Cling to that fantasy

By grace i do know the truth . But i never said everyone else dont . JUST that the CC dont nor do many who even lead
the protestant realm .

 

[amigo de christo]

Riiiiigggghhhhttt! And your doctrine isn't corrupt! Ask @Ferris Bueller if he thinks your doctrine isn't corrupt. The two of you think everyone else is corrupt, including each other, and YOU are the only ones that are not corrupt. The two of you crack me up....

Rather odd , FERRIS never once accused me of being corrupt , NOR did I accuse HIM of being corrupt .
ITS ALL IN YOUR OWN HEAD . Now flee the CC before its too late .

 

[EloyCraft]

Rather odd , FERRIS never once accused me of being corrupt , NOR did I accuse HIM of being corrupt .
ITS ALL IN YOUR OWN HEAD . Now flee the CC before its too late .

I have to disagree with Marymog. Neither of you believe that the Bible is corrupt but neither of you believe it is expressed without the inherent corruption of the sinner teaching it.
The truth that Marymog is seeing is that both of you treat Sacred Scriptures as if you're able to receive it without the corruption that you admit to consciously. That's a fault that comes from a lack of understanding what corruption is and how it makes us unequipped to interpret Scripture definitively as individuals. Peter taught that because all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. That just isn't given to any individual whether they act like it is or not.

The Word came to us from heaven and gave us a teaching unadulterated and incorrupt. That is a necessary foundation for the Holy Spirit to guide us to all truth. We can never build incorruption on corruption. That's the reason God delivered incorrupt teaching in the first place. Something you must believe is unnecessary in order to believe there is no one on earth teaching infallibly. Neither of you admit to incorrupt interpretation but you treat the interpretation of Scripture as if you do.

 

[Illuminator]

You haven't been paying attention, lol.

We're learning and growing up into the truth.
You? You're stuck in the error of the Catholic church.

Simply asserting "error" doesn't prove anything. The Bible repeatedly indicates the historic Church is infallible (on matters of faith and morals) and indestructible. You don't have enough faith to believe God's promises of protection from error, therefore you don't believe the Bible. Instead, you believe that Jesus builds junk only to fall apart centuries down the road and needs to be re-built. You flatly deny His promise that He would never leave us and indirectly call Jesus a liar by asserting the gates of hell has prevailed.

You have no hope of ever learning anything beyond what your men tell you is the truth. None.

Easy for you say, since you have no bishops. The Protestant Principle of Private Judgement makes the individual a kind of idol, usurping biblical church authority.

They hold you hostage to their error by telling you that you can't be saved or stay saved without them.

Jesus founded a living Church to "teach all nations", not a book club, and Jesus never taught a privatized individualistic Christianity.

We on the other hand have a direct connection to God the Father and Jesus the Son through our faith.

Yes, through faith, properly understood. Not the man made tradition of "faith alone", and the man made tradition of a non-infallible church. WE follow the infallible model of the Jerusalem Council whereas you reject it or ignore it all together because it doesn't fit the man made tradition of a non-infallible church. We share many truths, and the Catholic Church rejoices in the truths you have. Everything that is true in your church is found in the CC, but you are only interested further division, contrary to the Gospel. The CC is not your enemy, but you won't have it any other way.

You are too scared to post a web site of your church out of fear from other Protestants who disagree with you, and you do theological flip flops because you disagree with your own so called reformers on many points. Your unproven assertion of "errors" is hollow drum pounding and you are incapable of meaningful dialogue, so you bark stupid insults.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The Bible repeatedly indicates the historic Church is infallible (on matters of faith and morals) and indestructible.

The problem here is in how one defines the church. When you understand the church for what it actually is - all individual believers, instead of an official organization of leaders and their doctrines - you'll see how fail proof the church of God is.

You don't have enough faith to believe God's promises of protection from error, therefore you don't believe the Bible. Instead, you believe that Jesus builds junk only to fall apart centuries down the road and needs to be re-built. You flatly deny His promise that He would never leave us and indirectly call Jesus a liar by asserting the gates of hell has prevailed.

The gates of hell can not keep the church, the members of Christ's body, locked up. What can fail, and will fail, are the various organizations that men have built and erroneously labeled 'the church'. The body of Christ itself does not become leavened. The institutions of men do. History shows us to be true.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Easy for you say, since you have no bishops. The Protestant Principle of Private Judgement makes the individual a kind of idol, usurping biblical church authority.

Non-Catholic congregations have leadership. And, generally speaking, they are accountable to the scriptures, not each other as in the Catholic church, which, obviously doesn't work. Since those in the Catholic leadership are the only ones with divine revelation in your church you have no choice but to simply submit to whatever it is they do and say. That's why I say you are hopelessly trapped.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Jesus founded a living Church to "teach all nations", not a book club

I don't know how the non-Catholic churches are somehow "a book club".

and Jesus never taught a privatized individualistic Christianity.

It's individualistic in that the members of the body of Christ, the church, are not at the mercy of leadership, as it was in the old covenant. Christ and the coming of the Holy Spirit set God's people free from that tyranny. John tells us about the individual believer's capacity to discern whether or not what they hear, and who they hear it from, is of the truth or not:

"20You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.c 21I have not written to you because you lack knowledge of the truth, but because you have it, and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar, if it is not the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, who denies the Father and the Son. 23Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well.24As for you, let what you have heard from the beginning remain in you. If it does, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is the promise that He Himself made to us: eternal life.26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His true and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught." 1 John 2:20-27​

You can say what you want about this, but it's clear to me that Catholics categorically reject/ignore the Apostle John's teaching about this. You are not allowed to discern truth for yourself. You are told only the Catholic hierarchy has the apostolic capacity to do that. They, and only they, can tell you what is truth and what is not.

Individualism is an important feature of the New Covenant. Just because someone's individual 'discernment' is corrupt and they are choosing to listen to other voices doesn't mean John is wrong about the individual's God given discernment. It means some are false and do not have it, or it is corrupted by an appetite of the flesh, or something like that. It's just as important that false brethren distinguish themselves in their false discernment as it is that the true brethren distinguish themselves in their true discernment. God is all about dividing the true from the false and that the individual believer be able to discern truth from error for themselves. False doctrines, practices, and beliefs can serve a good purpose in exposing error.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Not the man made tradition of "faith alone"

Manmade?
James' "faith alone" theology is taught in James 2.
You have to stop confusing James' "faith alone" argument with Paul's "righteousness apart from works" argument in Romans 4. This confusion is the very foundation of the Catholic church's problem.

 

[Marymog]

Rather odd , FERRIS never once accused me of being corrupt , NOR did I accuse HIM of being corrupt .
ITS ALL IN YOUR OWN HEAD . Now flee the CC before its too late .

Rrrriiiigggt! The two of you always agree....NOT!

 

[Marymog]

By grace i do know the truth . But i never said everyone else dont . JUST that the CC dont nor do many who even lead
the protestant realm .

Riiiiggght! YOU know the truth. I guess everyone should listen to YOU when it comes to the proper interpretation of Scripture.....

 

[Marymog]

You haven't been paying attention, lol.

We're learning and growing up into the truth.
You? You're stuck in the error of the Catholic church. You have no hope of ever learning anything beyond what your men tell you is the truth. None. They hold you hostage to their error by telling you that you can't be saved or stay saved without them. We on the other hand have a direct connection to God the Father and Jesus the Son through our faith.

And, once again, who cares if YOU are learning and growing in the truth. Why wouldn't I just go to a 90 year old person who has been studying Scripture for 70 years? Wouldn't they have grown into the truth already? Your theory makes no sense..........You reject the Apostolic Fathers who were taught the truth directly from the Apostles and "grow" into your own truth which is opposite of their truth. Can you see why I can't take you seriously? When you think that your truth trumps their truth....

 

[Illuminator]

Manmade?
James' "faith alone" theology is taught in James 2.

James 2:24 What part of "...not by faith alone..." do you not understand?

This confusion is the very foundation of the Catholic church's problem.

You have to stop claiming the opposite of what James 2:24 clearly states..."not by faith alone..."
Paul's "righteousness apart from works" refers to works of the law, not "good works". I'll prove it using "Scripture alone".

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 – you err in your private understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g., clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

In the field of education,

• the Catholic Church runs 73,164 kindergartens with 7,376,858 pupils;
• 103,146 primary schools with just over 35 million pupils;
• 49,541 secondary schools with 19.3 million pupils.
• The Church also educates 2.25 million high school pupils, and 3.7 university students.

Charity and healthcare centers run by the Church include:

• 5,192 hospitals,
• 15,481 dispensaries,
• 577 care homes for people with leprosy,
• 15,423 homes for the elderly, or the chronically ill or people with a disability,
• 9,295 orphanages,
• 10,747 creches,
• 12,515 marriage counseling centers,
• 3,225 social rehabilitation centers
• and 31,091 other kinds of institutes.

Ferris, if you think all these great works are accomplished by mere human effort, without God's grace, then you give us far more credit than we give ourselves.

 

[Marymog]

James 2:24 What part of "...not by faith alone..." do you not understand?

You have to stop claiming the opposite of what James 2:24 clearly states..."not by faith alone..."
Paul's "righteousness apart from works" refers to works of the law, not "good works". I'll prove it using "Scripture alone".

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16,21; 3:2,5,10; Eph. 2:8-9 – you err in your private understanding of what Paul means by “works of the law” in his teaching on justification. Paul’s teaching that we are not justified by “works of the law” refer to the law of Moses or to any legal system that makes God our debtor. They do not refer to good works done in grace with faith in Christ. This makes sense when we remember that Paul’s mission was to teach that salvation was also for the Gentiles who were not subject to the “works of the law.” Here is the proof:

James 2:24 – compare the verse “a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” to Gal. 2:16 – “a man is not justified by works of the law,” and Rom. 3:20,28 – “no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the law.” James 2:24 appears to be inconsistent with Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28 until one realizes that the Word of God cannot contradict itself. This means that the “works” in James 2:24 are different from the “works of the law in Gal. 2:16 and Rom. 3:20,28. James is referring to “good works” (e.g., clothing the naked; giving food to the poor) and Paul is referring to the “Mosaic law” (which included both the legal, moral and ceremonial law) or any works which oblige God to give us payment. Here is more proof:

Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16 – Paul’s phrase for “works of the law” in the Greek is “ergon nomou” which means the Mosaic law or Torah and refers to the teachings (legal, moral) and works (ceremonial) that gave the Jews the knowledge of sin, but not an escape from sin. We have further proof of this from the Dead Sea Scrolls which provide the Hebrew equivalent (“hrvt ysm”) meaning “deeds of the law,” or Mosaic law.

James in James 2 does not use “ergon nomou.” He uses “ergois agathois.” Therefore, Paul’s “works of the law” and James’ “works” are entirely different types of works. Again, they could never contradict each other because the Scriptures are the inspired word of God.

Rom. 3:29 – Paul confirms that works of the law in this case refer to the Mosaic law by rhetorically asking “Or is God the God of the Jews only?” It does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 4:9-17 – Paul provides further discussion that righteousness God seeks in us does not come from Mosaic law, but through faith. But notice that Paul also never says “faith alone.”

Rom. 9:31-32 – righteousness is pursued through faith, not works of the law. Again, “works of law” does not mean “good works.”

Rom. 11:6,11 – justification is no longer based on “works” of the law, but on the grace of Christ. Why? Because salvation is also for the Gentiles.

Rom. 15:9-12 – Paul explains that Christ also saves the Gentiles. Therefore, “works of law” are no longer required.

Acts 13:39 – Luke also confirms this by providing that we have been “freed from the law of Moses.” This is the “works of the law” from which we have been freed.

Rom. 3:20,28 – in addition to the Mosaic law, as stated above, “works of the law” can also refer to anything that makes God a debtor to us. This is because law requires payment, but grace is a free gift from God. Therefore, faith must be behind every good work in order for it to be a work of grace. If not, it is a work of debt, and we cannot obligate God to do anything for us.

Rom. 4:3-4 – Paul refers to works apart from God’s grace. We do not obligate God to give us grace like an employee obligates his employer to pay wages. Faith in Christ must be behind our good works in order for it to be considered a work of grace; otherwise, it is a work of law or obligation.

In the field of education,

• the Catholic Church runs 73,164 kindergartens with 7,376,858 pupils;
• 103,146 primary schools with just over 35 million pupils;
• 49,541 secondary schools with 19.3 million pupils.
• The Church also educates 2.25 million high school pupils, and 3.7 university students.

Charity and healthcare centers run by the Church include:

• 5,192 hospitals,
• 15,481 dispensaries,
• 577 care homes for people with leprosy,
• 15,423 homes for the elderly, or the chronically ill or people with a disability,
• 9,295 orphanages,
• 10,747 creches,
• 12,515 marriage counseling centers,
• 3,225 social rehabilitation centers
• and 31,091 other kinds of institutes.

Ferris, if you think all these great works are accomplished by mere human effort, without God's grace, then you give us far more credit than we give ourselves.

I have learned that @Ferris Bueller ignores the passages of Scripture that teach opposite of what his men have taught him.

BUT....keep the faith illiminator and keep teaching him! He is still growing and has admitted he does not yet know all the truth. Maybe, someday, he will grow into the Truth!

 

[Marymog]

The problem here is in how one defines the church. When you understand the church for what it actually is - all individual believers, instead of an official organization of leaders and their doctrines - you'll see how fail proof the church of God is.

Once again, I will destroy your theory/opinion: What individual believer (church, according to you) fulfils 1 Tim 3:15? If there is no "organization of leaders" in an offical organization for the church, then what men in your un-official church do you obey (Hebrews 13:17)? How are those leaders in your un-official church appointed?

 

[Illuminator]

I have learned that @Ferris Bueller ignores the passages of Scripture that teach opposite of what his men have taught him.

BUT....keep the faith illiminator and keep teaching him! He is still growing and has admitted he does not yet know all the truth. Maybe, someday, he will grow into the Truth!

@Ferris Bueller
Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.

And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

There is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.

But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth. Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy. (scroll up to post #1692)

She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

TRUTH

 

[Ferris Bueller]

Rrrriiiigggt! The two of you always agree....NOT!

That's not what he said.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

And, once again, who cares if YOU are learning and growing in the truth.

Me.

Why wouldn't I just go to a 90 year old person who has been studying Scripture for 70 years? Wouldn't they have grown into the truth already?

Maybe.
I'll know that by the discernment of the Holy Spirit that John said all believers have to know if someone is telling you the truth or not.

You reject the Apostolic Fathers who were taught the truth directly from the Apostles

Amen!

and "grow" into your own truth which is opposite of their truth.

My truth is scripture.
That's how I know to reject your teachers, all the way back to the early church. What they teach is not in alignment with the original Apostles who you claim taught them.

Can you see why I can't take you seriously? When you think that your truth trumps their truth.

That's because you are brainwashed into believing that the early church 'fathers' are correct because they communicated only what they heard from the original Apostles. With no proof to back that up. You're just going by the word of your men who tell you that, and who tell you have to take what they say as truth because they are the only one's who can discern the truth, not you or anyone else in the congregation.

 

[Marymog]

Me.

Lol...Yup, its all about YOU!

 

[Marymog]

That's because you are brainwashed into believing that the early church 'fathers' are correct because they communicated only what they heard from the original Apostles. With no proof to back that up. You're just going by the word of your men who tell you that, and who tell you have to take what they say as truth because they are the only one's who can discern the truth, not you or anyone else in the congregation.

I didn't say the early church fathers. I clearly referenced the Apostolic Fathers.

Here is the truth Ferris: Your men read the writings of the Apostles and came up with their interpretation of what the Apostles wrote. The Apostolic Fathers were students of the Apostles and were TOLD what the interpretation is. You are a student of a man who interpreted Scripture who were students of men who interpreted scripture who were students of men who interpreted scripture of students of men.... etc etc.

Soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Who should I trust? YOUR men, who were students of men 2000 years removed from the Apostles? Or the men who were students of the Apostles? Tough choice...but I think you know what my choice is kiddo.

You don't even know your own christian history. MY MEN didn't tell me. CHRISTIAN HISTORY tells me....you crack me up ferris.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

James 2:24 What part of "...not by faith alone..." do you not understand?

The question is why don't you and the Catholic church understand that James' is talking about being justified in regard to being shown to be righteous, not made to be righteous. Works of obedient faith do not MAKE you righteous. They SHOW to have the righteousness of God that is imputed to a person entirely on the basis of their faith in the forgiveness of God through Christ.

See, sin debt is removed by it being forgiven and wiped off your account. It is not worked off with righteous works. That's impossible. You sin debt is too great to do that. It would require you to die an eternal death for your sin. That's why the ONLY way to be made righteous in God's sight is to be forgiven. Through faith in that forgiveness. No work of any kind can earn that imputation of righteousness. This very truth is why men had to separate themselves from the corrupt works salvation Catholic church.