The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

[Keraz]

That is so far out there and would take way too long to correct you.

You want to correct the Prophets? Yes, it would take quite a while!

 

[n2thelight]

Do you see the tribulation of Matthew 24 involving the church? I don't.

So what part of Christ saying He returns AFTER the tribulation are you not understanding?

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

 

[farouk]

So what part of Christ saying He returns AFTER the tribulation are you not understanding?

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

The context does not seem to the church but tribulation saints after the church has gone.

 

[n2thelight]

The context does not seem to the church but tribulation saints after the church has gone.

So when are these saints gonna start reading the Word?
Where is the rapture in this chapter?

I get so many different answers from you guys,first it's just the Jew's now it's the trib saints,are they one in the same?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well enoch, she (naomi) has explained her thoughts on it. She thinks what she thinks. No one verse verse definitively declares your position and thoughts. I personally believe the entire scope of the bible declares it, so I agree there is probably a pretrib gathering together of those found worthy/sifted, but many people
dont, and you have to let them have their take on it.

To me there is a preponderance of verses along with the entire scope of the bible, so that I can't even begin to wrap my head around any but the pre and midtrib views, but honestly, isn't practical help for abiding/remaining in Him of much more importance than this? Why fight? Present your current understanding of it and the verses that lead you to it and then love your brothers and sisters and build them up in trust. That's far more important and helpful to them!

 

[n2thelight]

The AC cannot take control is not a pretrib believes. The AC cannot be revealed until the holy spirit is removed, which requires the removal of the Church.

Stop misquoting and misrepresenting. Get your facts straight.

The verse says Israel will be gathered, not Church.

Isaiah 11:12 New International Version (NIV)
12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.

Do your homework before sproutting error.

Not understanding your logic let's look

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Subject is our gathering to Christ

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?
Our gathering to Christ

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Paul is again reminding them.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

2thess2

 

[farouk]

Not understanding your logic let's look

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Subject is our gathering to Christ

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?
Our gathering to Christ

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Paul is again reminding them.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come. By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit, you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory". It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above. That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

2thess2

I don't see in Scripture what must happen first before the Lord Jesus comes for His church.

 

[n2thelight]

I don't see in Scripture what must happen first before the Lord Jesus comes for His church.

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Subject is our gathering to Christ....

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?
Our gathering to Christ...

 

[farouk]

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Subject is our gathering to Christ....

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?
Our gathering to Christ...

Dispensationalists tend to interpret this passage as being similar to what is in view in the Old Testament phrase - often repeated - 'day of the Lord'.

In other words, the wrath of God manifested in judgment on earth, a wrath of which the church by definition cannot be the object.

Remembering also that the church - a revealed mystery in the New Testament - is not seen in the Old Testament.

 

[n2thelight]

Dispensationalists tend to interpret this passage as being similar to what is in view in the Old Testament phrase - often repeated - 'day of the Lord'.

In other words, the wrath of God manifested in judgment on earth, a wrath of which the church by definition cannot be the object.

Remembering also that the church - a revealed mystery in the New Testament - is not seen in the Old Testament.

So our gathering to Christ means what to you?

 

[farouk]

So our gathering to Christ means what to you?

I see the rapture and the future manifestation of the Lord Jesus Christ in the world as two distinct stages.

 

[Taken]

Keraz - The Biblical reason that there will never be a 'rapture to heaven', is that we are earth people and God has work for us to do here.

VictoryinJesus - I believed in a rapture most my life. I believed from a far, semi-liking God from a distance. But to hear God was going to come for the ‘good’ people and hide them away... well I signed up to be raptured out of here. That is all it took. I would wait and He would come for me. Thank God He didn’t ...because if God had come to rapture the ‘good’ ones out...I would have been left behind.

Dave L - The problem is, your entire view has not one scripture to support it directly in any point.

"ByGrace" - And, I was thinking to myself...why so MANY rapture threads...!!
They are all stupid.
Those that believe in it will never change their position.
And those who do not...have probably come out of the group of those who do...we will never change our minds.
The rapture ( that they teach) is just an opinion.

Vexatious- The Antichrist came in the first century, so said John, "This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already."

Rollo Tamasi - Foolishness
The rapture doctrine has already died, and about time

Enoch111, farouk, Coressue, Mayflower,
Greetings Brothers IN Christ;

Brothers WHO;

WILLINGLY;

- asked the Lords forgiveness for disbelief
- accepted His forgiveness
- gave their Life TO Christ.
- became Crucified with Christ
- accepted His restoration of your Soul
- accepted His risen Body
- are IN His risen Body
- accepted His SPIRIT
- accepted His Circumcision of your Heart
- accepted His SEED
- accepted His quickening of your Spirit
- accepted His MAKING you Whole...
....Body, Soul, Spirit
- accepted TO have been Made in Jesus' likeness.

- Jesus Asked, His disciples IF THEY WERE WILLING to "DRINK OF THE SAME CUP (OF INDIGNATION), that He had been WILLING to Drink thereof. They very Same applied to you my Brothers.

- You Drank.....and the INDIGNATION the world HEAPS UPON YOU .... will be NO more, or NO less what the world HEAPED upon Jesus.

The world may, hate you, call you a liar, spit on you, wrongly accuse you, say you have a devil, make fun of you, reject you, beat you, kill your body.......

It's is EXPECTED! You drank from the Same Cup of Indignation!

The world was NOT Jesus' strength or comforter.....NOR is the world YOUR strength or comforter to suffer the worlds INDIGNATION.

Jesus' BODY left this Earth WHOLE ~
Body, Soul & Spirit and entered into the Clouds Wholly Whole Holy; THEE CHRIST.

His Body, Soul & Spirit shall descend TO the Clouds and call UP HIS CHURCH (who IS those who DRANK from the SAME Cup of Indignation) and THEY WILL MEET their Lord CHRIST Jesus, their God, IN THE Clouds...
Wholly, Whole, Holy....Body, Soul & Spirit.

You were ASKED TO BELIEVE....
IN Thee God..
IN Jesus..
IN Christ the Messiah..
IN Jesus IS the Christ Messiah..
IN Thee Spirit/Power/Light..
IN Death and Resurrection..
IN His Truth..

And Confess from your Heart Your BELIEF....

You accomplished. God recorded and keeps the Evidence thereof.

Daily you are Subjected to Trials and Tribulations....BECAUSE you DRANK of the SAMe CUP OF INDIGNATION.

Jesus IS NOT subject to the WRATH of God!
Nor IS a man WHO has become in Jesus' likeness!

And Scripture has Revealed IN WHAT MANNER, "HIS CHURCH" Shall serve Him ON Earth;
and IN WHAT MANNER and WHEN "HIS CHURCH" Shall BE CALLED UP TO MEET HIM IN THE CLOUDS.

Rom 1[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven AGAINST all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Rom 2 [5] But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

Rom 2 [8] But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation andwrath,

Rom.5 [9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

God Bless you, my brothers IN Christ, IN His Church; the same who HAS Overcome, HAS become made Whole, Has become Sanctified, Has become Justified to Meet the Lord in the Clouds......Wholly Whole Holy, Risen UP Above the face of the Earth.

While the Seals are Opened and the Fallen are given Power to Conquer...
While the Lord sends His Chosen Sealed with Gods Seal to Save His People...
While People on Earth are in Chaos, choosing, rejecting, running hiding....
While the Division is Finalized...
While thee Lord God Almighty POURS out His cup of INDIGNATION on the remaining INDIGENT.

We will Be Saved and with thee Lord above the Face of the Earth......Just as IN the day of Noah, WHO was SAVED and Risen UP above the face of the Earth, (during Gods Wrath, in the manner of Flood Waters).

Matt 24: [37]
But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

And Where WAS Noah, DURING the Flood?

Gen 7:17 And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth.

And WHERE SHALL Christ's SAVED Church BE, DURING the next time men on earth are Rejecting Him, lusting, lying, making merriment, making fun of the Saved.....?

With the Lord IN the Clouds, "ABOVE THE EARTH", Meeting God, Face to Face, participating in A Wedding and Feast! Mingling with Invited "saint" guests and witnesses.
Waiting to return to their renewed UN-Corrupted Habitat....Earth!

God Bless,
See ya at the Wedding!
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

You want to correct the Prophets? Yes, it would take quite a while!

I was talking about you.

 

[CoreIssue]

Not understanding your logic let's look

II Thessalonians 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

Subject is our gathering to Christ

II Thessalonians 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come [it will not be], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

What day shall not come?
Our gathering to Christ.
2 Thessalonians 2:3 New International Version (NIV)
3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessnessa]">[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

Not first, but at the same time. Yet more KJV problems.

Satan never dies.

The word "perdition" means "one that perishes". Satan and only Satan has already been condemned to die [to perish] by God. Satan's judgment day has come already back in the first earth age, and he will have no part in the Great White Throne judgment, or any other judgment yet to come. He has already been judged, and sentence by God to death "perdition" [Ezekiel 28 covers this judgment].

The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 684 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
ajpwvleia from a presumed derivative of (622)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Apoleia 1:396,67
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
ap-o'-li-a Noun Feminine
Definition

1. destroying, utter destruction
   1. of vessels
2. a perishing, ruin, destruction
   1. of money
   2. the destruction which consists of eternal misery in hell

What did Paul say again?

Jesus Christ is coming back to this earth, but the saints of Christ will not be gathered to Him until the "son of perdition" [Satan] be revealed first.

Already answered.

II Thessalonians 2:4 "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

II Thessalonians 2:5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"

Paul is again reminding them.

II Thessalonians 2:6 "And now ye know what withholdeth [that which restraineth to the end] that he might be revealed in his time [own season]."

2 Thessalonians 2:6 New International Version (NIV)
6 And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time.


"And now", is Paul's reminder to them that they did talk about this when he was with them in person. Who then is this one that would "be revealed in his time?"

The subject here is "the son of perdition", Satan, the Antichrist, or what ever name you desire to use for him. He is Satan, and Satan will commit the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 9:27; and the church will be here to see it, because the "gathering", or Christ's return follows this.

Never said the church will be here

II Thessalonians 2:7 "For the mystery of iniquity [lawlessness] doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."

Yep, the holy spirit restrainer will be removed.

The "mystery of lawlessness" is the mystery of iniquity. "He who now letteth will let"; in the Greek should be translated; "He who holds fast [ketcho] will stand." The ellipsis, or "omission from an expression of a word clearly implied"; "There is one who hold's fast", instead of by repeating the verb, "will let". However, "katecho" is a transitive verb, and an object must be supplied also. So if the subject in verse six is Satan, then the object must be his position in the heavenlies [see Ephesians 6:12], from which he will be ejected from heaven by Michael [Revelation 12:7-9].

Revelation 12:7-9 New International Version (NIV)
7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

• Ancient history. The angels that rebelled have long been chained in the pit per Jude.

"Out of the way", in the Greek is "out of ek", or "the midst". It is the same expression used in Acts 17:33, and I Corinthians 5:2.

It is tereo ek. And yes the same word used up for completely different places, not the whole world as in Revelations.

Many "rapture theorists" claim this one who "letteth" is the Holy Spirit, and they claim that when He is "taken away", then the Antichrist will come.

The AC is already here. But yet to be revealed. Get off of the archaic English.

By reversing the role of the characters in the verses here, and attributing what is Satan's to the Holy Spirit,

Satan and doesn't restrain lawlessness. He encourages it.
you have a whole new doctrine called the "Any moment doctrine". This false doctrine is better known as the "rapture theory".

It is dangerous to play around with a foreign language; and when the flock relies upon their shepherd for the truth, and the shepherd is assumed to be correct; in ignorance it is accepted just because he said it.

Look in a mirror.

It is Michael who "holds fast" on to Lucifer [the Antichrist], and Michael will continue to keep Lucifer held until the appointed time, spoken of above.

Never said.

That time is appointed by God. Then at the appointed time God will give Satan the keys [authority] to release his fallen angels and they will be cast to the earth [see Revelation 9:1-10]. Let's take a look at the one [Michael] who holds on to Satan now.

Ancient history.

Revelation 12:7; "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels," Michael [that is who the "he" is in II Thessalonians 2:7 and his [Michael's] angels fought against the dragon [another name for Satan] and his [Satan's] fallen angels.

Ancient history.

Revelation 12:8; "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven." This war took place in heaven, and that is where Satan and his angels are now; though Satan's spirit, and demonic spirits are all over the earth today. Now we will see what Michael does with Satan, in fulfilling II Thessalonians 2:7.

Demons and fallen angels are never called the same thing in the bible.

Proof? Demands are active in the world while fallen angels are chained in the pit.

Revelation 12:9; "And the great dragon [Satan] was cast out [that is the transitive verb of verse seven], that old serpent [this is the role Satan played in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world [except for God's elect]: he was cast out onto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Ancient history.

This is when Satan will physically appear on earth as a man with his angels. This is the time of the Antichrist's coming, and we must know when this time is by when these events takes place, for Satan comes at the sixth trumpet.

You seriously need bible study.

Then the verse picks up where Satan is standing in the holy place. Satan's object is to deceive all the world, and have the world take his markings in their minds. God's Word thus says that Satan will come to earth and stand in that Holy place, before Christ will come and gather anyone back to Himself.

II Thessalonians 2:8 "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, Whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit [breath] of his mouth, and shall destroy [bring to naught] with the brightness [manifestation] of his coming:"

2 Thessalonians 2:8 New International Version (NIV)
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.

"The wicked" is better translated, "wicked one": What comes out of the Lord's mouth? It is the Truth. That is also the Word that God put in the mouth of Paul in this writing. Satan shall then be destroyed after being cast out, and also after standing in the holy place. After this is the time of Jesus Christ coming and gathering of His saints. There is no "anytime doctrine" here. It is in the course of certain events, and God lets us know clearly the order of these events, and exactly what to expect. In Matthew 24:15 Jesus is saying exactly what Paul is saying, Satan will come first and reign before the gathering of the saints.

Then Christ will destroy Satan.

2thess2

 

[amadeus]

I stand by what I wrote in post #49

Making your scripture quotes big and bold , does not magically make them mean what "you" claim them to mean!! We disagree.

Even so! And what Solomon wrote about study does apply to man's study today. That is NOT the way to truth:

"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12

 

[Keraz]

I was talking about you.

I post what the Bible prophets wrote.
Therefore you must want to correct them, as what they tell us contradicts your beliefs.

 

[Taken]

Knowledge is one thing.

Understanding the Knowledge is another thing.

Death of the Physical Body is one thing.
A man can SEE a Dead Body.
A man can UNDERSTAND the Body is Dead.

Spiritual Death is Unseen Knowledge.
Understanding Spiritual Death is NOT Understood BY ALL.

Spiritual DEATH IS Separtation From God.

Spiritual DEATH Applies to Every natural born earthly man.

SOME Earthly men freely CHOOSE TO BECOME "BORN AGAIN".

Their Flesh Body becomes Forgiven.

Their Soul becomes Restored.
Their Spirit becomes Born Again.
They Become MADE Again Good;
Justified to be Raised UP,
Whole, body, soul, spirit;
Saved, Restored, Glorified, Sanctified, Holy....
Never Again Separated from God.

Celestrial Spirits unlike mankind (who was created Good), are Created Holy.

When Spirits Fall Away from being Holy, they become Separated From God, which is their Death, without dying.

They HAVE NO Option to AGAIN become MADE HOLY.

Mankind was NOT created HOLY.
They were created Good, and HAVE an Option to Become Made HOLY.

A man CAN NOT become MADE HOLY, "unless He First Dies".

OT men Under the Law....were given the Option....To ENDURE to their PHYSICAL BODILY DEATH....being FAITHFUL TO GOD, by and through obedience TO HIS WORD.

Those THAT accomplished....Became called "saints".

Jesus arrives ON EARTH...Gods Word manifested IN THE FLESH.

Some men ACCEPT Gods Word IN THE FLESH, and become (MADE DEAD) Through Christ, and (MADE ALIVE IN CHRIST) Through Christ, without their own Bodily Physical Death....

Some DO NOT ACCEPT, but rather Continue AS DID their Jewish/Hebrew forefathers, enduring IN the Word of God, until their Bodily Death.

Some DO NOT ACCEPT "any" method offered, to mankind.....as THEY Choose to REJECT the "WORD OF GOD"...."spoken" "written" "TO" OT men and "manifested" "TO" NT men and "written" as Testimony "TO" All men.

They who REJECT, shall BODILY DIE, IN THEIR SINS, without Forgiveness, Sentenced TO Forever Separatedness from thee Lord God.

The Knowledge has already Been Revealed.
Individuals World Wide MUST ALL HEAR, before the Division (between those Accepting and those Rejecting) IS established accomplished.

Once accomplished...the Division will be Complete...Those forever WITH thee Lord God and Those forever WITHOUT thee Lord God.

Victory OVER DEATH. DEATH destroyed.

Luke 12
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

If you have ALREADY BEEN "DIVIDED", through the WORD OF GOD, and the SPIRIT of GOD.....UNTO GOD....

There IS NO reason or necessity or teaching FOR SUCH man to REMAIN ON EARTH, While the Lord IN Heaven is Finalizing HIS DIVISION....

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

No, I am not missing a big chunk. You're misunderstanding what I am saying, so I will try again.

When the second person of the Trinity took on flash he set aside his godly powers and writes. Meaning his spirit was still God, but did not exercise his powers as God. Instead, he functioned through is human flesh as a man.

The holy spirit, as restrainer, will move to the sideline as an observer, so to speak.

Hope that is clearer.

Yes, that is clearer. But...it still doesn't explain why the Church must leave. Yes, I know the HS is present within 'The Church'. But if we're talking, strictly, about the HS moving aside specifically to let the Man of Lawlessness forward, then there is still nothing that necessitates the Church from having to be gone.It is not an ipso facto situation. You are still seeing the Church being removed because you want it to be, not because it has to be, or because the text demands it.

The easy one is a restrainer is not going to restrain himself if he is lawlessness. So if definitely not the AC.

Sin is the actions we take of our own accord and the prompting of demons. Satan promotes sin and wants to replace God. H once to destroy everything if he can't have it.

I'm not sure that I ever suggested that the Restrainer was the Antichrist himself. Because you are right...it hardly makes sense that the Antichrist must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed.

It simply cannot be anyone else.

Really? But that brings us back to the Angel locking away, or 'restraining' Satan in Rev 20, and the Antichrist is just a man, is he not? Sure, the angel would have done so in the name of God, but all angels would act on and under the authority, and therefore power of, their Lord and God.
Or...what if it IS the HS? It could indeed be the HS. But as I mentioned before, there is nothing in the text, or reason itself, to suggest that the HS, 'stepping back' in that area, necessitates the Church leaving. It is only assumption on a grand scale that suggests that the Church as a whole HAS to leave for the HS to do that. Where does it say, suggest or even hint at that process in scripture?

The holy spirit is in us and working. He protects us, which he cannot do if on the sidelines.

I think God can do anything. If Jesus Christ can be both man and God...laying aside his divinity, but, if he had chosen to, able to take it back up in an instant...but stil...fully man...I think we can say that in the mystery and power of God...the HS can remain in us, but "release the Kraken", so to speak.

It does say it.

What alternative do you have to be that the restrainer that fits all the criteria required?

It does? Well...show me where it names the HS as the restrainer, specifically.
As for alternatives...please read above.

 

[Vexatious]

You've covered 70AD. Now explain the 70th week of Daniel and the book of Revelations, which Matthew and also deals with. That you cannot.

Daniel's 70 Weeks came to an end in the First century. Pretribbers claim there's a gap in the 70 Weeks preventing it from ending in the First century. That's a nonsense LIE, as is everything out a Pretribbers mouth.

Chapter one alone of Revelation tells us numerous times that it's talking about the first century. It says soon. It says at hand. It says it's addressed to seven churches in the first century. It tells us John, the author in the first century, is in the Tribulation. It tells us that those alive in the first century who killed Jesus would see it.

The Pretrib devils you follow tell you "soon" and "at hand" are God's lies to make you think the rapture is imminent, when it's not. The Pretrib devils you follow tell you that the churches mean seven church ages covering 2000 years. The pretrib devils you follow tell you John is claiming to be in another tribulation. The pretrib devils you follow tell you that those who killed Jesus will see it from the grave.

Spare me your ignorant nonsense that I can't explain Revelation. You doctrines are nothing but satanic lies.

 

[Naomi25]

It does not have to. The Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is restraining the TOTAL CONTROL of the world's inhabitants by Satan and the Antichrist (the Man of Sin, the Son of Perdition) for 3 1/2 years. Study Revelation 13 to understand this.

Do you have any idea of the horrendous nature of the world when God removes all restraint, and Satan is on this earth in full control of every nation and individual (along with the Antichrist and the False Prophet)?

Actually....YES it has to. Do you have any idea what happens when people start trying to extrapolate from scripture what is not actually written there???
You've assumed it's the HS, because it doesn't actually say it. Then you've assumed the Church has to be gone, because if the HS is gone, then the Church will go with him. That's two lot's of assumptions straight up that the bible doesn't tell us, and assumptions in everyday life are tricky. When it comes to God's word...assumptions shouldn't come into it at all, not for something this important.