The biblical necessity of a Pretribulation Rapture

[Dave L]

The disciple asked three questions of the Lord in Matthews 24.

Matt 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Three question.
.the great tribulation begins? Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken".

We need to differentiate between the great Jewish Tribulation of AD 70. And the Christian tribulation that began with Christ's first advent and remains until his second coming.

 

[101G]

First thanks for the reply.

second, I posted my understanding of the Tribulation, in the topic, "Pre-Trib Rapture is Dead!!!", post # 151.

 

[CoreIssue]

While it is true that this verse says that the Day of the Lord will not come until the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, it does not specifiy that the Holy Spirit is the restrainer. Nor does it state that it is, specifically, the Holy Spirit within the Church, which must be removed. This, unfortunately, is a bit of a 'leap-frog' conclusion. "It has to be the HS, which means it has to be the HS in the Church". Well, no...it doesn't say that.
Find me somewhere else...anywhere else, that gives leave to think the HS is this restrainer that is talked about. The fact that most theologians (even Dispensationalist ones if they're honest, and many of them are) will say that no one can be sure who the Restrainer is.
That makes this an assumption. At best.

The restrainer has to be omipresent.

So the question to you is who else could it possibly be?

 

[bbyrd009]

So why don't you tell us what you have gleaned from Scripture about this matter (or have you dodged that altogether)?

doesn't Ezekiel make it plain enough? @ "pillows, soft landings," etc? "make them to fly like birds?"

 

[CoreIssue]

Another problem is with the audience in Matthew 24 whom Jesus speaks to. Telling them when you see the abomination of desolation, the great tribulation is eminent. So the great tribulation was to happen in their life time. Not at a distant future date. He would have used "them" or "they" instead of "you" in that case.

Another way to say it would be, when y'all see the abomination......the great tribulation begins.

Matthew 24 is addressed to all of Israel. It lists all that must transpire first before this happens, which says it will not happen in your lifetime.

This was written in Greek, not English. It was written for those of that time to understand, not as.

You cannot cherry pick words out of context.

 

[Dave L]

Matthew 24 is addressed to all of Israel. It lists all that must transpire first before this happens, which says it will not happen in your lifetime.

This was written in Greek, not English. It was written for those of that time to understand, not as.

You cannot cherry pick words out of context.

This is certainly not true. Jesus spoke to the disciples telling them when YOU (second person present tense plural) see the abomination of desolation ....... He did not say when THEY see the abomination of desolation. And the disciples left the region upon seeing this. It was the Great Jewish Tribulation of 70 AD they escaped according to his instructions.

 

[CoreIssue]

This is certainly not true. Jesus spoke to the disciples telling them when YOU (second person present tense plural) see the abomination of desolation ....... He did not say when THEY see the abomination of desolation. And the disciples left the region upon seeing this. It was the Great Jewish Tribulation of 70 AD they escaped according to his instructions.

You don't understand prophecy.

70AD was not ever called tribulation. Your trying to spin things to fit your narrative.

The AOD is still future.

70AD was part of the future Christ laid out. But it was not tribulation. The AOD is mid trib, not the start of the trib. The Trib is seven years long.

The temple is destroyed in 70AD, but the AC occupies the temple mid trib.

There were no two witnesses in 70AD.

 

[farouk]

I just got finished on reading your post on the other (of many) rapture threads going.
And, I was thinking to myself...why so MANY rapture threads...!!
They are all stupid.
Those that believe in it will never change their position.
And those who do not...have probably come out of the group of those who do...we will never change our minds.
Once free and 'seeing' , we don't return there again.

The rapture ( that they teach) is just an opinion. Even though they present it as fact.
Those who believe in it are just trying to persuade themselves ...they think that the more they say it, and agree together , that it somehow makes it truth!!!

Bless you ...hugs ...Helen ♥︎

Actually I don't see it as just an opinion. Coming events on earth on the one hand in Scripture, and the big coming event for the church, are rather distinct.

 

[Helen]

Actually I don't see it as just an opinion. Coming events on earth on the one hand in Scripture, and the big coming event for the church, are rather distinct.

Ah, and there you have it...the " scripture" so called 'proof' is weak.
The doctrine was started by someone having a vision...in no time it became a doctrine.
But it is a waste of breath arguing the point.
"Each man must be persuaded in his own mind"

I'd rather not believe it (which I strongly don't) and find it is true...than sit waiting to be zapped out of trouble and find I was totally wrong...but sit unprepared!!
God did not give us 'the whole armour of God' ...just to zap his own warriors out of the battle!


And it is just 'an opinion'... the 'proof' is very weak indeed...much more speaks to overcoming with the Lord at our head..

But, like I say, each to their own.

 

[farouk]

Ah, and there you have it...the " scripture" so called 'proof' is weak.
The doctrine was started by someone having a vision...in no time it became a doctrine.
But it is a waste of breath arguing the point.
"Each man must be persuaded in his own mind"

I'd rather not believe it (which I strongly don't) and find it is true...than sit waiting to be zapped out of trouble and find I was totally wrong...but sit unprepared!!
God did not give us 'the whole armour of God' ...just to zap his own warriors out of the battle!


And it is just 'an opinion'... the 'proof' is very weak indeed...much more speaks to overcoming with the Lord at our head..

But, like I say, each to their own.

John 14.2-3:

"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

1 Thessalonians 4.14-18:

"For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

1 Corinthians 11.26:

"For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come."

 

[Helen]

Yep...I know all those... nowhere does it mention "flying away".....Been there done that.
Been at this 54 years now ... I've done all the deep studies, checked out all the words.

Nice try...thanks.
Bless you...Helen

 

[farouk]

Naomi, I am addressing the first part of your post. (Haven't read the entire op yet, just the first part that you address of it.)

I f it isn't God who restrains the man of lawlessness/AC, who do they think "he who restrains" might be?

The Holy Spirit indeed has a restraining power now. What chaos the Great Tribulation will be!

 

[Dave L]

You don't understand prophecy.

70AD was not ever called tribulation. Your trying to spin things to fit your narrative.

The AOD is still future.

70AD was part of the future Christ laid out. But it was not tribulation. The AOD is mid trib, not the start of the trib. The Trib is seven years long.

The temple is destroyed in 70AD, but the AC occupies the temple mid trib.

There were no two witnesses in 70AD.

You are confusing the great Jewish Tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 with the tribulation of the church mentioned later in Matthew. They are two separate situations altogether.

 

[CoreIssue]

Ah, and there you have it...the " scripture" so called 'proof' is weak.
The doctrine was started by someone having a vision...in no time it became a doctrine.
But it is a waste of breath arguing the point.
"Each man must be persuaded in his own mind"

I'd rather not believe it (which I strongly don't) and find it is true...than sit waiting to be zapped out of trouble and find I was totally wrong...but sit unprepared!!
God did not give us 'the whole armour of God' ...just to zap his own warriors out of the battle!


And it is just 'an opinion'... the 'proof' is very weak indeed...much more speaks to overcoming with the Lord at our head..

But, like I say, each to their own.

Two quick points is all

It is solidly Biblical. You cannot escape vs. like Revelations 3:10

" The doctrine was started by someone having a vision..." Where did that come from? Documentation for it goes back at least 1900 years. Know makes a difference in size to the

 

[CoreIssue]

You are confusing the great Jewish Tribulation Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24 with the tribulation of the church mentioned later in Matthew. They are two separate situations altogether.

I'm not confusing anything. The Jews and Christians have been persecuted for thousands of years. But there is zero mention of your two Tribune periods in the bible.

 

[Vexatious]

You don't understand prophecy.

70AD was not ever called tribulation. Your trying to spin things to fit your narrative.

The AOD is still future.

70AD was part of the future Christ laid out. But it was not tribulation. The AOD is mid trib, not the start of the trib. The Trib is seven years long.

The temple is destroyed in 70AD, but the AC occupies the temple mid trib.

There were no two witnesses in 70AD.

Denying 70 AD was a great tribulation or denying that the Roman armies were an abomination of desolation objectively shows extreme ignorance of history and/or the English language (regardless of the Bible, which pretribbers also reject). Now, natural ignorance is curable with education (get a dictionary and look up the definition of tribulation). But, satanic ignorance takes and act of God to overcome, which is why a dictionary doesn't cure pretribbers of their false doctrines.

 

[Heart2Soul]

Two quick points is all

It is solidly Biblical. You cannot escape vs. like Revelations 3:10

" The doctrine was started by someone having a vision..." Where did that come from? Documentation for it goes back at least 1900 years. Know makes a difference in size to the

Everytime you say something is solidly biblical you fail to take into account that the bible has been subjected to man's interpretation of it's meaning.….so whose interpretation is correct? and don't say yours is because bible backs it up....because everyone here has posted scripture backing their interpretation up.

 

[Enoch111]

Yep...I know all those... nowhere does it mention "flying away"....

Which means that you have NOT seriously studied the subject. It is far superior to "flying away". That is why it is called "translation".

By faith Enoch was translated* that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated* him: for before his translation* he had this testimony, that he pleased God. (Heb 11:5)

*Strong's Concordance
metatithémi: to transfer, change
Transliteration: metatithémi
Definition: to transfer, change

The Rapture of Enoch prefigures the Rapture of the saints, "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye", or in modern parlance "in a nanosecond". This is not "flying away", but a supernatural transfer from earth to Heaven.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

 

[Dave L]

I'm not confusing anything. The Jews and Christians have been persecuted for thousands of years. But there is zero mention of your two Tribune periods in the bible.

Who suffered in AD 70? The Jews, the Christians all escaped. Who suffers throughout church history under Antichrist? The Christians.

 

[CoreIssue]

Denying 70 AD was a great tribulation or denying that the Roman armies were an abomination of desolation objectively shows extreme ignorance of history and/or the English language (regardless of the Bible, which pretribbers also reject). Now, natural ignorance is curable with education (get a dictionary and look up the definition of tribulation). But, satanic ignorance takes and act of God to overcome, which is why a dictionary doesn't cure pretribbers of their false doctrines.

What it shows is extreme Biblical ignorance on your part.

Instead of attacking pre trib explain what you believe will happen.