The challenge in Christianity is not to love Jesus, it's to love Judas.
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Aunty Jane
Well-Known Member
@Deborah_ this one part of your quoted reference was particularly pertinent....
“Our culture, on the other hand, glorifies independence and the struggle for self-realisation. And perhaps this is why so many of us can identify with Judas. Like him, we would really like to subordinate Jesus to our agenda, to co-opt Him into our cause. We want Him as a means to an end, whether it be money, political power, or (more nobly) recognition for some marginalised group in society. The one thing we don’t want to do is to submit to Jesus’ agenda; we don’t even want to accept His verdict on Judas, because that would mean accepting the same verdict on our own refusal to acknowledge His authority.
But Jesus will not allow us to manipulate Him in this way. We cannot have Him on our own terms, only on His. Despite spending three years in Jesus’ company, Judas fails to ‘get’ this rather fundamental point. That is his real tragedy – don’t let it be yours.”
Seeing Judas through God’s eyes and hearing what Jesus said about him, (and to him,) shows us that Judas was not forgivable. This man sinned against the holy spirit....how? Judas, as one of the 12 had received authority from Jesus to perform miracles in his name....this man had participated in bringing the benefits of the gifts of God’s spirit to others, in order to bring them to Christ. To betray his Master to his enemies was not forgivable, regardless of his motives.
This “son of perdition” knew that what he had done was unforgivable because he did not repent and ask for forgiveness.....he took his own life so that God didn’t have to, and so that he would not have to bear the reproach of those who would see him as a traitor to the one he had traveled with and served in close company for three and a half years.
Judas was consigned to “Gehenna” not “hades”. Translating both these words as “hell” has caused nothing but confusion in the minds of Bible readers.
“Hades” is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew “sheol” which came to mean “the abode of the dead”. For a Jew, if you consult the Jewish Tanakh, “sheol” is translated as “the grave”....nothing more sinister than that. A place of unconsciousness. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
“Gehenna”, as Jesus’ Jewish audience knew, was a reference to the garbage dump outside of the walls of the city where the refuse was disposed of by “fires that never went out” and "worms that do not die”.....it is a literal reference to the fact that dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were often cast into Gehenna for disposal, not punishment. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. It was an ignominious end for a Jew.
The punishment symbolized by “Gehenna” was not having a final resting place with one’s name and family lineage inscribed, which was considered necessary for God to remember and to resurrect a person once Messiah’s Kingdom ruled the earth. It was a symbol of everlasting death, which is the opposite of everlasting life.
Since the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul, the dead “sleep” in “sheol” (hades) until they hear the call from Jesus to “come out” as he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28-29)
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him?
John 11:11-14....
“After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.”* 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.
Lazarus had no memory of being anywhere but ‘asleep’.....he did not know that he had been in his grave for four days....that is what biblical death is......there was no “heaven or hell” scenario ever presented to anyone in Jewish scripture. They never knew of such a thing....all God had ever told them about was “life or death”....there was no other option. A return to life was by resurrection, not because of some invisible spirit that exited the body at death....that is a satanic lie traced back to Eden. Satan told the woman..."you surely will not die" and then invented a way for that to be true......immortality of the soul.
Deuteronomy 30:17-20...God told his people....
“.... if your heart turns away and you do not listen and you are enticed and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish. . . .19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers”.
Obeying their God was rewarded with life...disobedience merited death. They were told to “choose life” which meant obeying God in all things.....nothing changed when Jesus came to the earth......those who became his disciples had the very same choice.....life or death. For a chosen few, it would be life in heaven but for the majority, it meant a resurrection to life on a cleansed earth, restored to its former beauty by those who loved God and obeyed his Christ. (2 Peter 3:13; Rev 21:2-4)
“Our culture, on the other hand, glorifies independence and the struggle for self-realisation. And perhaps this is why so many of us can identify with Judas. Like him, we would really like to subordinate Jesus to our agenda, to co-opt Him into our cause. We want Him as a means to an end, whether it be money, political power, or (more nobly) recognition for some marginalised group in society. The one thing we don’t want to do is to submit to Jesus’ agenda; we don’t even want to accept His verdict on Judas, because that would mean accepting the same verdict on our own refusal to acknowledge His authority.
But Jesus will not allow us to manipulate Him in this way. We cannot have Him on our own terms, only on His. Despite spending three years in Jesus’ company, Judas fails to ‘get’ this rather fundamental point. That is his real tragedy – don’t let it be yours.”
Seeing Judas through God’s eyes and hearing what Jesus said about him, (and to him,) shows us that Judas was not forgivable. This man sinned against the holy spirit....how? Judas, as one of the 12 had received authority from Jesus to perform miracles in his name....this man had participated in bringing the benefits of the gifts of God’s spirit to others, in order to bring them to Christ. To betray his Master to his enemies was not forgivable, regardless of his motives.
This “son of perdition” knew that what he had done was unforgivable because he did not repent and ask for forgiveness.....he took his own life so that God didn’t have to, and so that he would not have to bear the reproach of those who would see him as a traitor to the one he had traveled with and served in close company for three and a half years.
Judas was consigned to “Gehenna” not “hades”. Translating both these words as “hell” has caused nothing but confusion in the minds of Bible readers.
“Hades” is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew “sheol” which came to mean “the abode of the dead”. For a Jew, if you consult the Jewish Tanakh, “sheol” is translated as “the grave”....nothing more sinister than that. A place of unconsciousness. (Eccl 9:5, 10)
“Gehenna”, as Jesus’ Jewish audience knew, was a reference to the garbage dump outside of the walls of the city where the refuse was disposed of by “fires that never went out” and "worms that do not die”.....it is a literal reference to the fact that dead animals and the bodies of executed criminals were often cast into Gehenna for disposal, not punishment. What the flames missed, the maggots finished off. It was an ignominious end for a Jew.
The punishment symbolized by “Gehenna” was not having a final resting place with one’s name and family lineage inscribed, which was considered necessary for God to remember and to resurrect a person once Messiah’s Kingdom ruled the earth. It was a symbol of everlasting death, which is the opposite of everlasting life.
Since the Bible does not teach that we have an immortal soul, the dead “sleep” in “sheol” (hades) until they hear the call from Jesus to “come out” as he did with Lazarus. (John 5:28-29)
Where was Lazarus before Jesus raised him?
John 11:11-14....
“After he said these things, he added: “Lazʹa·rus our friend has fallen asleep, but I am traveling there to awaken him.” 12 The disciples then said to him: “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get well.”* 13 Jesus, however, had spoken about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14 Then Jesus said to them plainly: “Lazʹa·rus has died”.
Lazarus had no memory of being anywhere but ‘asleep’.....he did not know that he had been in his grave for four days....that is what biblical death is......there was no “heaven or hell” scenario ever presented to anyone in Jewish scripture. They never knew of such a thing....all God had ever told them about was “life or death”....there was no other option. A return to life was by resurrection, not because of some invisible spirit that exited the body at death....that is a satanic lie traced back to Eden. Satan told the woman..."you surely will not die" and then invented a way for that to be true......immortality of the soul.
Deuteronomy 30:17-20...God told his people....
“.... if your heart turns away and you do not listen and you are enticed and bow down to other gods and serve them, 18 I tell you today that you will certainly perish. . . .19 I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, 20 by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers”.
Obeying their God was rewarded with life...disobedience merited death. They were told to “choose life” which meant obeying God in all things.....nothing changed when Jesus came to the earth......those who became his disciples had the very same choice.....life or death. For a chosen few, it would be life in heaven but for the majority, it meant a resurrection to life on a cleansed earth, restored to its former beauty by those who loved God and obeyed his Christ. (2 Peter 3:13; Rev 21:2-4)
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
What would happen if we were all born perfect. Alive in christ, as Adam was created. God would not need his justice, because we have not sinned.. Yet what would happen if we sinned in this state? Could Gods love help us?
St. SteVen said:
Are you sure we weren't born on death row? (members of Adam's race)
Why?
/
Are you sure we weren't born on death row? (members of Adam's race)
I thought I did.
Why?
/
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
What did you think?
when the word says in adam all die, yet in christ shall all be made alive, what does this mean?
think of Gods perfect justice vs Gods perfect love
when the word says in adam all die, yet in christ shall all be made alive, what does this mean?
think of Gods perfect justice vs Gods perfect love
Sure.
I also could have severed a hand in a work accident and a marvelous surgeon was able to reattach it.
But I would have preferred to have lived a life without such tragedy. And you? Which would you prefer?
/
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Not sure what this has to do with a person who is born perfect. Then sins, and thus has been given the death penalty based on that sin
I'm glad you asked.
A very good friend of mine provided the perfect explanation.
1 Corinthians 15:22 explained
This is essentially a conditional statement.
It is upon the basis that all die in Adam that all also are made alive in Christ.
Or better, if all had not died in Adam, then there would have been
no need to make all (or any) alive in Christ.
If all died in Adam, then all are made alive in Christ.
The same set of people are being referenced in both the antecedent and the consequent.
So, if "all" doesn't mean all in the consequent, then it doesn't mean all in the antecedent.
Modus tollens: If all are not made alive in Christ, then all did not die in Adam.
But, of course, all did die in Adam (according to the fans of eternal torment).
Therefore, all means all in both instances.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
/ @Chadrho
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
I have a different view.
We are either in adam, or in christ. We can not be in both
God put us all in adam, so that christ could die for us all.
If we were not all put in adam, Christ could not die for us all. We would be left on our own, and the first time we sinned, we would have been lost with no hope..
its the perfect plan of God.. this allows his perfect justice to be satisfied
yet also allows Gods perfect love to save the day.
but again, god will nto force you to be in christ. He will allow you to stay in adam..
no one will go to hell for any personal sin, Jesus paid for them
Jesus did not however, die for the sin of unbelief
he who believes is not condemned, he has passed from death to life
he who does nto believe is condemned already because he has not believed.
if he remains in that state of unbelief, he will remain in the state of condemnation
St. SteVen said:
Sure.
I also could have severed a hand in a work accident and a marvelous surgeon was able to reattach it.
But I would have preferred to have lived a life without such tragedy. And you? Which would you prefer?
I was thankful that the good physician was able to repair it.
But I would have preferred to stay at work doing my job.
And gone home at the end of the day with all my parts.
I'm also glad I didn't have the death penalty for eating an apple.
Assuming that's what you call justice?
/
Sure.
I also could have severed a hand in a work accident and a marvelous surgeon was able to reattach it.
But I would have preferred to have lived a life without such tragedy. And you? Which would you prefer?
My hand was perfectly attached until it wasn't.
I was thankful that the good physician was able to repair it.
But I would have preferred to stay at work doing my job.
And gone home at the end of the day with all my parts.
I'm also glad I didn't have the death penalty for eating an apple.
Assuming that's what you call justice?
/
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
God is the one who imposed the death penalty for eating the apple..
I guess you will have to ask him why.
as for having your hand whole. What did Jesus say?
Matthew 5:30
And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell
Mark 9:43
If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched
I would rather lose my hand, than spend an eternity in hell. This is what Jesus thinks about sin
Your off to a bad start on this.
We ARE all in Adam. Not one or the other.
And we will all be made alive in Christ. That's "will be".
Are you not already made alive in Christ?
If so, then we ALL have not yet been made alive.
But we will be.
1 Corinthians 15:22
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
/
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
yes, so we could all be put in christ
This is not true. if it is, then no one needs to get saved, no one needs to become poor in spirit. No one needs to become as the tax collector.
I was not made alive in christ until I recieved him, John 3..
Not unless salvation is universal.
Otherwise, good news for some is bad news for the rest. (the vast majority)
The not-so-perfect plan.
/
St. SteVen said:
And we will all be made alive in Christ. That's "will be".
/
And we will all be made alive in Christ. That's "will be".
None of us needed any of that.
/
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
If salvation is universal. Then we might as well go live however we want, eat drink and be merry, Rape murder and plunder.. because we all will be saved anyway
The gospel is the good news
you can take it or leave it, we make choices like this every day. If we make bad choices we suffer for it..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Lol. Thats not what the Bible says though..
Jesus did not send his disciples out knowing many of them would be murdered to bring people to him if everyone would be saved
Everyone will be. But each in turn.
(bet you didn't see this coming)
1 Corinthians 15:21-24 NIV
For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
/
Not true.
There are consequences. Like the scripture you quoted.
Better off without the hand or eye that made you sin.
And that applies to everyone. Christians aren't off the hook.
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
/
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