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Illuminator

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2 Cor 5:19(Paul) said that God was inside Christ.
Horsemuffins, 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

2 Cor 5:19 is about reconciliation, not the Trinity. And you have no ambassadors (verse 20).
The RCC says that the 3 persons were inside the fake body of the 2nd person.
It is impossible to have any kind of reasonable discussion with a chronic liar.
I trust Paul, not the RCC.
Paul was always subject to the Church. The claim that Paul was on his own, disconnected from the institutional Church, is rejected as unbiblical.
Paul was a Catholic. Romans 1:8 "...whole world..." in English, Catholicus in Latin, kata holos in Greek. kata holos = Catholic
"RCC", to designate all Catholics, is inaccurate as it is annoying. That's the only reason you do it, you like to be annoying. Calvinist cult leader and professional liar Matt Slick does it repeatedly (CARM).
 
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Truther

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Horsemuffins, 2 Corinthians 5:16-21
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[a] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[b] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

2 Cor 5:19 is about reconciliation, not the Trinity. And you have no ambassadors (verse 20).

It is impossible to have any kind of reasonable discussion with a chronic liar.

Paul was always subject to the Church. The claim that Paul was on his own, disconnected from the institutional Church, is rejected as unbiblical.
Paul was a Catholic. Romans 1:8 "...whole world..." in English, Catholicus in Latin, kata holos in Greek. kata holos = Catholic
"RCC", to designate all Catholics, is inaccurate as it is annoying. That's the only reason you do it, you like to be annoying. Calvinist cult leader and professional liar Matt Slick does it repeatedly (CARM).
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, ...


"To wit" means to understand that God was inside Christ.

You don't "wit".
 

Behold

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Paul was always subject to the Church. The claim that Paul was on his own, disconnected from the institutional Church,

Paul has nothing to do with the "cult of mary", or with anyone who defines the "body of Christ" as the Catholic Church = "Cult of Mary".

Paul understood that all the born again, are the body of Christ, as He is the one who taught this doctrine.. and anyone who teaches that there is a specific "church" that is the one True, does not understand what it means for each believer to have become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".

A real student of the word of God will notice that when Paul writes his epistles, in the first chapter, he often greets this group of believers as the 'church".
Heretics, who do not read a bible, never notice this, at all.
 

Truther

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Paul has nothing to do with the "cult of mary", or with anyone who defines the "body of Christ" as the Catholic Church = "Cult of Mary".

Paul understood that all the born again, are the body of Christ, as He is the one who taught this doctrine.. and anyone who teaches that there is a specific "church" that is the one True, does not understand what it means for each believer to have become the "temple of the Holy Spirit".

A real student of the word of God will notice that when Paul writes his epistles, in the first chapter, he often greets this group of believers as the 'church".
Heretics, who do not read a bible, never notice this, at all.
The only folks that qualified as the Church must start here...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the 1st century, you obeyed it.

Anyone else was fake.

It still stands today.
 

Behold

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The only folks that qualified as the Church must start here...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

In the 1st century, you obeyed it.

Anyone else was fake.

It still stands today.

If you are a jew, in Act's 2, during Pentecost, then your gospel, is perfect, Truther.
Also, if you are a Catholic, and believe that water saves you...that water washes aways your sin, then Acts 2:38, is the game plan.

However, God didn't stop there, and neither should you, Reader.
See.....years later after Acts 2, Jesus who was in Heaven, called Paul to be the "apostles to the gentiles", in the "time of the Gentiles'.
He didnt call Peter.
Peter at that time, didn't even know that Gentiles could be saved. So, Peter performed his requirement, until Paul came to give us from Jesus, what Paul's calls...."MY Gospel" 3x, in the NT.
This is the 'Gospel of the Grace of God" that is "faith is counted as righteousness, and "justification by faith".

Notice there is no WATER in it.......and that makes sense, as the Cross has NO WATER on it., and its by Christ's sacrifice on The CROSS that you are allowed to enter heaven or not.
WATER need not apply to that job description.

So, as Jesus says...>"All that BELIEVE IN ME.........
I... GIVE....UNTO THEM.....Eternal LIFE, and they shall NEVER Perish".

And once you have that, you are born again., and once you are, its a good idea to get water baptized.
But NEVER believe a heretic who will tell you that you have to get WET to be saved., as this denies the Blood of Jesus and the Cross of Christ, by trying to replace it, or add to it, a self effort.
 

Truther

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If you are a jew, in Act's 2, during Pentecost, then your gospel, is perfect, Truther.
Also, if you are a Catholic, and believe that water saves you...that water washes aways your sin, then Acts 2:38, is the game plan.

However, God didn't stop there, and neither should you, Reader.
See.....years later after Acts 2, Jesus who was in Heaven, called Paul to be the "apostles to the gentiles", in the "time of the Gentiles'.
He didnt call Peter.
Peter at that time, didn't even know that Gentiles could be saved. So, Peter performed his requirement, until Paul came to give us from Jesus, what Paul's calls...."MY Gospel" 3x, in the NT.
This is the 'Gospel of the Grace of God" that is "faith is counted as righteousness, and "justification by faith".

Notice there is no WATER in it.......and that makes sense, as the Cross has NO WATER on it., and its by the CROSS that you are allowed to enter heaven or not.
WATER need not apply to that job description.

So, as Jesus says...>"All that BELIEVE IN ME.........I.... GIVE....UNTO THEM.....Eternal LIFE, and they shall NEVER Perish".

And once you have that, you are born again., and once you are, its a good idea to get water baptized.
But NEVER believe a heretic who will tell you that you have to get WET to be saved., as this denies the Blood of Jesus and the Cross of Christ, by trying to replace it, or add to it, a self effort.
...classic example of an Acts skipper saying how only Jews need to obey Acts 2:38.

Problem is, Acts 10 is about gentiles obeying the same command.

So, your anti Acts 2:38 rhetoric is debunked by Peter per Acts 2 and Acts 10....


Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....

Acts 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.




Do you command folks to be baptized in the name of Jesus or not?
 

Behold

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...classic example of an Acts skipper saying how only Jews need to obey Acts 2:38.

What you mean't to say is that there are 26 more Chapters in "ACTS" that you seem to have "skipped", as you got stuck in the 2nd chapter, and i kept on studying all the way to the end of the """" Acts of the Apostle's."""
You should try it.
You should find out why Peter wrote 2 epistles and Paul wrote almost all the rest of the Epistles.
There is a reason for that, Truither.
At least read until Act's 10 ends.... and find out that Peter didn't know that Gentiles could be saved in Acts 2:38.
That's important that you find out, Truther.

Listen....its really simple.

Anything that you can do, is YOUR WORK.....is a "work of the flesh".
So, getting into the water, is what YOU DO...... with your flesh, with your body. Thats a WORK.
That is YOU doing that, as a WORK, and """"Salvation is by Grace through Faith, without WORKS, lest any person will boast."""
This means, that a person will teach or think that what they can do, (works) is a part of God's Salvation., which is their misunderstanding of God's "GIFT of Salvation".

God provides Salvation, only through the Cross., not through the city water supply.
So, anything that you can DO.....is a WORK, and that would be .......going to Church, or getting water baptized, or witnessing to your neighbors...
See those?
Those are what you DO, and they are all a WORK of the FLESH, and no work of the flesh is accepted by God as a part of HIS Salvation.

Water Baptism, is what you do AFTER you are born again....AFTER you are saved.........never is it a part of getting saved (born again), and that is because its something that YOU DO with your own BODY...its a WORK of the FLESH...., and not something that God does for you that IS HIS Salvation....
= Christ on the Cross. "Faith is counted as righteousness"...."Justification by FAITH".
 

Behold

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he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.



And Paul the Apostle whom Jesus called, said this...."Christ sent me not to water baptize".
See that?
That is not Paul saying we are not to be water baptized, that is Paul making a distinction for people like you who are obsessed with WATER Baptism.

Listen..

"its not by WORKS"...... = water baptism, or commandment keeping, or church membership, or tithing, or trying to be GOOD"......

= """""but According to God's MERCY....= HE SAVED US"..

And what is God's mercy?

Its not Water.
Its not your good deeds (works)

A.) The CROSS of CHRIST is "God's mercy". 2 Corinthians 5:19
 

Truther

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What you mean't to say is that there are 26 more Chapters in "ACTS" that you seem to have "skipped", as you got stuck in the 2nd chapter, and i kept on studying all the way to the end of the """" Acts of the Apostle's."""
You should try it.
You should find out why Peter wrote 2 epistles and Paul wrote almost all the rest of the Epistles.
There is a reason for that, Truither.
At least read until Act's 10 ends.... and find out that Peter didn't know that Gentiles could be saved in Acts 2:38.
That's important that you find out, Truther.

Listen....its really simple.

Anything that you can do, is YOUR WORK.....is a "work of the flesh".
So, getting into the water, is what YOU DO...... with your flesh, with your body. Thats a WORK.
That is YOU doing that, as a WORK, and """"Salvation is by Grace through Faith, without WORKS, lest any person will boast."""
This means, that a person will teach or think that what they can do, (works) is a part of God's Salvation., which is their misunderstanding of God's "GIFT of Salvation".

God provides Salvation, only through the Cross., not through the city water supply.
So, anything that you can DO.....is a WORK, and that would be .......going to Church, or getting water baptized, or witnessing to your neighbors...
See those?
Those are what you DO, and they are all a WORK of the FLESH, and no work of the flesh is accepted by God as a part of HIS Salvation.

Water Baptism, is what you do AFTER you are born again....AFTER you are saved.........never is it a part of getting saved (born again), and that is because its something that YOU DO with your own BODY...its a WORK of the FLESH...., and not something that God does for you that IS HIS Salvation....
= Christ on the Cross. "Faith is counted as righteousness"...."Justification by FAITH".
By skipping the 1st command from Peter to sinners...

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ...


You are disqualified from continuing into Acts.

Acts is for your mere observance only, and you cannot say you are of the 3000 etc.
 

Truther

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And Paul the Apostle whom Jesus called, said this...."Christ sent me not to water baptize".
See that?
That is not Paul saying we are not to be water baptized, that is Paul making a distinction for people like you who are obsessed with WATER Baptism.

Listen..

"its not by WORKS"...... = water baptism, or commandment keeping, or church membership, or tithing, or trying to be GOOD"......

= """""but According to God's MERCY....= HE SAVED US"..

And what is God's mercy?

Its not Water.
Its not your good deeds (works)

A.) The CROSS of CHRIST is "God's mercy". 2 Corinthians 5:19
Do you command gentiles to be baptized in the name of the Lord like Peter did?

Or, do you dismiss baptism in opposition to Peter's command?
 

Behold

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By skipping the 1st command from Peter to sinners... (Repent).

There are 10 commandments, and Peter didn't write any of them.
Then Jesus gave us some specifics, and Peter didnt write those...

John the Baptist, was telling Jews to REPENT, long before Peter denied Jesus 3 times.

Peter didn't create the idea of "repent". He was just repeating in Acts 2:38, what John the Baptist was saying to the jews, just before he water baptized them.
And that happened long before Jesus was crucified.

So, you post's are the victim of a Peter cult, that is obsessed with Acts 2 and Peter, in General.
That is the Cult of Mary, also., as they live and breath Peter, their ""1st Pope""., while denying Paul's Gospel as much as possible.
Dont be that one., as they teach "baptismal regeneration" in place of the Cross of Christ, and that is one of the Devil's favorite "gospels"., among a few others.. written by people like the heretic J. Calvin.

Here is what Peter said about Paul's letters, that Peter had in his hands.
Peter said.....that Paul's letters...were equal to the Torah....they are """""SCRIPTURE""""".... long long before they became most of the New Testament epistles.
 
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Truther

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There are 10 commandments, and Peter didn't write any of them.
Then Jesus gave us some specifics, and Peter didnt write those...

John the Baptist, was telling Jews to REPENT, long before Peter denied Jesus 3 times.

Peter didn't create the idea of "repent". He was just repeating in Acts 2:38, what John the Baptist was saying to the jews, just before he water baptized them.
And that happened long before Jesus was crucified.

So, you post's are the victim of a Peter cult, that is obsessed with Acts 2 and Peter, in General.
That is the Cult of Mary, also., as they live and breath Peter, their ""1st Pope""., while denying Paul's Gospel as much as possible.
Dont be that one., as they teach "baptismal regeneration" in place of the Cross of Christ, and that is one of the Devil's favorite "gospels"., among a few others.. written by people like the heretic J. Calvin.

Here is what Peter said about Paul's letters, that Peter had in his hands.
Peter said.....that Paul's letters...were equal to the Torah....they are SCRIPTURE.... long long before they became most of the New Testament epistles.
Why don'y you obey this?....38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,....
 

Behold

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Why don'y you obey this?....38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,....

Ive been water baptized, Truther.
I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I'll water baptize anyone who is born again.
Absolutely.
But what i wont do, is try to pretend that water baptism has anything to do with the Salvation that is bought and paid for by the Holy Blood of Jesus.
See, its not water that washes away your sin.....its the ETERNAL BLOOD SACRIFICE of God as Christ on the Cross.

There is your Salvation completed and offered as "the GIFT of Salvation".

Read...and BELIEVE.

-
"""" What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

O precious is the flow
that makes me white as snow;
no other fount I know;
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my pardon this I see:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my cleansing this my plea:
nothing but the blood of Jesus

Nothing can for sin atone:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Naught of good that I have done:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my = righteousness:
nothing but the blood of Jesus."""
 

Truther

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Ive been water baptized, Truther.
I was water baptized 11 yrs after i was born again.
I'll water baptize anyone who is born again.
Absolutely.
But what i wont do, is try to pretend that water baptism has anything to do with the Salvation that is bought and paid for by the Holy Blood of Jesus.
See, its not water that washes away your sin.....its the ETERNAL BLOOD SACRIFICE of God as Christ on the Cross.

There is your Salvation completed and offered as "the GIFT of Salvation".

Read...and BELIEVE.

-
"""" What can wash away my sin?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.
What can make me whole again?
Nothing but the blood of Jesus.

O precious is the flow
that makes me white as snow;
no other fount I know;
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

For my pardon this I see:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
For my cleansing this my plea:
nothing but the blood of Jesus

Nothing can for sin atone:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
Naught of good that I have done:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.

This is all my hope and peace:
nothing but the blood of Jesus.
This is all my = righteousness:
nothing but the blood of Jesus."""
Were you baptized specifically in the name of Jesus Christ?
 

Wrangler

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We on the Forum, are aware that you do not Trust in Christ to keep you saved.
I trust Jesus to keep me saved. It’s my ego I don’t trust, to disregard the MANY verses about salt being thrown out that lost it’s flavor, branches that don’t produce fruit thrown in the fire and Jesus saying he does not even know those who performed miracles in his name.

I haven’t read a reasonable response from you on these verses.
 

BreadOfLife

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2 Cor 5:19(Paul) said that God was inside Christ.

The RCC says that the 3 persons were inside the fake body of the 2nd person.


I trust Paul, not the RCC.

First of all – you dodged the question.

I asked if YOU believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE Being manifested in THREE distinct Persons – and you failed.

Also – can you show me where the Catholic Church has EVER taught that the 3 persons were “inside the fake body of the 2nd person”.
Can you show me that teaching – or do you want to apologize for lying again?
Finally – as to your warped perversion of 2 Cor. 5:19
You are a living, breathing example of the dangers of what a little knowledge can do – VERY little knowledge.

This verse is in NO WAY stating that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. Go was reconciling the world to Himself – in the PERSON of Jesus.
I don’t know whether I feel more disgust at your dishonesty – or pity because of your total ignorance . . .
 

Illuminator

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First of all – you dodged the question.

I asked if YOU believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE Being manifested in THREE distinct Persons – and you failed.

Also – can you show me where the Catholic Church has EVER taught that the 3 persons were “inside the fake body of the 2nd person”.
Can you show me that teaching – or do you want to apologize for lying again?
Finally – as to your warped perversion of 2 Cor. 5:19
You are a living, breathing example of the dangers of what a little knowledge can do – VERY little knowledge.

This verse is in NO WAY stating that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. Go was reconciling the world to Himself – in the PERSON of Jesus.
I don’t know whether I feel more disgust at your dishonesty – or pity because of your total ignorance . . .
Let's give Truther the benefit of doubt and go with the latter.

This is the best explanation of the Trinity I have found in all my years:

In seeking to understand the traditional family, Christians should keep in mind that not only are individual persons created in the image of God, but so is the family itself. The human family is the closest analogy that mankind will ever come to concretely understanding the Blessed Trinity.
  • The creeds teach that while there is one God, He exists in three distinct persons.
  • The bible, on the other hand, reveals that man is made in the 'image of God'.
From these two truths, therefore, we can acknowledge that the complete image of God is found in the Triune understanding of Him. This understanding of His Triune nature is reflected by the human family whose personal relationships approach the likeness of the Trinity.

There are multiple demonstrations of this truth.

Consider the unity of the Trinity which is reflected in the unity of the family. Or the "family of persons" which is found in both. The persons of the Trinity share the 'same substance ' while a human family becomes one flesh: wife with husband and parents with children.

There is also another element in the Trinity that lends itself to human likeness. The Nicene Creed professes this about the Trinity: "We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life who proceeds from the Father and the Son."

In Catholic theology, the Holy Spirit is said to proceed from the will of both the Father and the Son, or in other words, through the activity which they engage in, otherwise known as "love". The Holy Spirit is poured forth through the exchange of love between the Father and the Son. This is why perhaps Jesus says to the Apostles: " Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:7)

In the eternal economy of the Trinity, therefore, a person 'proceeds' from the love between two other persons. And so, the Holy Spirit is love 'proceeding' or 'coming from' the first two persons of the Blessed Trinity.

The human family has a rather striking parallel to this dynamic. The ultimate act of intimacy in a marriage mirrors the eternal exchange of love between the first two persons of the Trinity.

And like the eternal or continual procession of the Holy Spirit in the Trinity, the act of love between a man and a woman causes a 'procession' of another human person (i.e. the birth of a child).

Thus, it is precisely because the homosexual sex act is not ordered to the procession of another person, that it can never be a Trinitarian reflection of the divine essence. Indeed, the sexual act itself, which is supposed to be a reflection of the Trinitarian relationship, becomes, through the homosexual act, a blasphemy against God since it ends up distorting the Trinitarian image of Him.

The human sexual act either affirms God's image or it distorts it. This is why all forms of contraceptive sex, including the homosexual act, are serious sins: they seek to create God in another image. It is anti-Trinitarian.

source no longer available on line
 
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Truther

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First of all – you dodged the question.

I asked if YOU believe that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE Being manifested in THREE distinct Persons – and you failed.

Also – can you show me where the Catholic Church has EVER taught that the 3 persons were “inside the fake body of the 2nd person”.
Can you show me that teaching – or do you want to apologize for lying again?
Finally – as to your warped perversion of 2 Cor. 5:19
You are a living, breathing example of the dangers of what a little knowledge can do – VERY little knowledge.

This verse is in NO WAY stating that Jesus and the Father are the same Person. Go was reconciling the world to Himself – in the PERSON of Jesus.
I don’t know whether I feel more disgust at your dishonesty – or pity because of your total ignorance . . .
Wait, are you trying to tell me that the RCC teaches that 1+1+1=1?