The Elect?

[CoreIssue]

We are in a familial relationship which has nothing to do with being rescued from sin, or the Gospel. You have the cart before the horse.

So, I see your error, you have yourself acting saved while you were dead in sin, an impossibility, which is why you turn grace into merit. You've confused the issue and have erred.

Now, show us from Scripture your theory. You've yet to do so. So far you've told us something is in Romans 8 that is not there.

Are you trying to say the church is not a familiar relationship?

Why are the terms father, son, sons of God and others used? Why is Christ called Brother?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Are you trying to say the church is not a familiar relationship?

Why are the terms father, son, sons of God and others used? Why is Christ called Brother?

But we weren’t in the church when He elected us. We were His enemies, we loathed Him. He elected us according to His foreknowledge, again a verb, meaning He did something, in foreknowing us.

 

[CoreIssue]

@CoreIssue,

Come on now, you've proven not one thing you believe. Answer my post with Scripture:

"God knew (according to you) you would reach out and love and choose him, so he rewarded you with eternal life, but you make a category error (a really really serious one) and call it a gift.

What a kind, nice, soft little lost in your sins and dead outside of Christ individual you were to muster up the ability to do this, even when Christ said you were unable."

Prove your belief with Scripture how you merited grace, something that cannot and is not given due to anything a person does.

I never claim to merit grace. Why do you keep trying to force words into other people's mouths to defend your position?

What difference does it make? According to you everyone's fate was long chosen by God and it can't be changed.

So why are you trying to give people to acknowledge they were chosen for hell?

 

[CoreIssue]

But we weren’t in the church when He elected us. We were His enemies, we loathed Him. He elected us according to His foreknowledge, again a verb, meaning He did something, in foreknowing us.

Then why are you trying to convince me and others they were chosen for hell?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Then why are you trying to convince me and others they were chosen for hell?

No one was chosen for hell. Election, predestination, foreknowledge all deal with how God saves ppl. It’s via His grace and mercy many are saved. The rest He justly left in their ruined condition.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I never claim to merit grace. Why do you keep trying to force words into other people's mouths to defend your position?

What difference does it make? According to you everyone's fate was long chosen by God and it can't be changed.

So why are you trying to give people to acknowledge they were chosen for hell?

If you claim God predestines ppl because He knew they would be willing to accept them then He chose them because they did something. That’s merit.

 

[CoreIssue]

No one was chosen for hell. Election, predestination, foreknowledge all deal with how God saves ppl. It’s via His grace and mercy many are saved. The rest He justly left in their ruined condition.

What's a bunch meaningless nothingness.

If one is knowingly chosen for something and there's only one other choice not to be chosen for one automatically means you are chosen for the other.

By your magnificent Tulip everyone starts in the same condition and some are arbitrarily picked out for another condition.

Two people are doing to die if a third person doesn't move them immediately. The third person moves one and not the other. One was chosen to live in one was chosen to die.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What's a bunch meaningless nothingness.

If one is knowingly chosen for something and there's only one other choice not to be chosen for one automatically means you are chosen for the other.

By your magnificent Tulip everyone starts in the same condition and some are arbitrarily picked out for another condition.

Two people are doing to die if a third person doesn't move them immediately. The third person moves one and not the other. One was chosen to live in one was chosen to die.

Everyone God chose were chosen from before creation began. Everyone He will save hated His guts. And you scoff at the truth He elected to save many who hated Him. God has to be fair in your book. He has to abide by your rules, think like you do, believe like you do, or He’s not worthy of your praise. You’re the epitome of Romans 9:20.

 

[CoreIssue]

If you claim God predestines ppl because He knew they would be willing to accept them then He chose them because they did something. That’s merit.

So you're saying there is a limit to how many God can choose to live.

It is that or he is choosing some to live and choosing some to die arbitrarily.

Which is it?

And do not give me this self glory claim. It still boils down to the two options stated.

 

[CoreIssue]

Everyone God chose were chosen from before creation began. Everyone He will save hated His guts. And you scoff at the truth He elected to save many who hated Him. God has to be fair in your book. He has to abide by your rules, think like you do, believe like you do, or He’s not worthy of your praise. You’re the epitome of Romans 9:20.

That is not an answer to my question.

 

[Mjh29]

What's a bunch meaningless nothingness.

If one is knowingly chosen for something and there's only one other choice not to be chosen for one automatically means you are chosen for the other.

By your magnificent Tulip everyone starts in the same condition and some are arbitrarily picked out for another condition.

Two people are doing to die if a third person doesn't move them immediately. The third person moves one and not the other. One was chosen to live in one was chosen to die.

So, you claim that God accepts people because He sees that they will accept Him.... my question is how is this any better? We say we are all created equally condemned, but you say that God only creates some with the capacity to accept. Did God not give some the 'smarts' and not others? is this not Him still choosing some [to make able] and others [who are not 'as smart as you]

The difference isn't "One says God chooses blindly and I believe that I can choose. The difference is one says God chooses some because it brings Him glory, the other says that God chooses some because he created ME smart enough, and not Steve. Isn't this still God choosing to make some smart enough and not others? But your way makes you the center of your conversion, which is why you like it.

 

[CoreIssue]

So, you claim that God accepts people because He sees that they will accept Him.... my question is how is this any better? We say we are all created equally condemned, but you say that God only creates some with the capacity to accept. Did God not give some the 'smarts' and not others? is this not Him still choosing some [to make able] and others [who are not 'as smart as you]

The difference isn't "One says God chooses blindly and I believe that I can choose. The difference is one says God chooses some because it brings Him glory, the other says that God chooses some because he created ME smart enough, and not Steve. Isn't this still God choosing to make some smart enough and not others? But your way makes you the center of your conversion, which is why you like it.

So your answer to my question is God is completely arbitrary. Since no one deserves it he could save everyone but does not.

 

[Mjh29]

So your answer to my question is God is completely arbitrary. Since no one deserves it he could save everyone but does not.

Your saying God couldn't save everyone? No it is not arbitrary; It is because it brings Him the maximum glory.

Are you saying that Jesus died for every sin of every man?

 

[CoreIssue]

Your saying God couldn't save everyone? No it is not arbitrary; It is because it brings Him the maximum glory.

Are you saying that Jesus died for every sin of every man?

According to free will he say's every body's.

According to you no one has free and being saved is a crapshoot.

 

[Mjh29]

According to free will he say's every body's.

According to you no one has free and being saved is a crapshoot.

A simple yes or no would suffice. Did Christ die for every sin of every man?

 

[Enoch111]

So your answer to my question is God is completely arbitrary. Since no one deserves it he could save everyone but does not.

Calvinists believe that their doctrine of God's sovereignty brings glory to God, when it is the exact opposite.

The deeper and more serious issue is that Reformed Theology brings division to Christians unnecessarily. The Reformers literally slaughtered thousands of Anabaptists because their doctrine was different. If Calvinists were in control today, no doubt there would be purges and pogroms against non-Calvinists. And then we had the Calvinistic Dutch supporting and encouraging the German Nazis while they mass murdered Dutch Jews.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

By your magnificent Tulip everyone starts in the same condition and some are arbitrarily picked out for another condition.

Do you have everyone starting at a differing condition? All outside of Christ are condemned; John 3:18; and all are under wrath; Ephesians 2:3. That's the condition.

God elects some to salvation according to his plan and purpose; Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:28; 2 Thessalonians 2:13.

What you are arguing is that God chose you because you did something, and favored you because you did something. Favor is grace, and God's grace is unmerited, yet you have yourself meriting grace because of something you've done and God being you do it then because of what you did God saves you. That is not grace, and that is not a gift, it is a meritorious reward based on what you did.

All men fell. Right now mankind justly receives wrath, which is God removing his restraint on mankind, and society is spiralling out of control. He is just in allowing this. Right? He owes man nothing. Right?

God rightly can exercise justice on every single person. As judge he owes no man an opportunity for salvation. By his grace he has exercised mercy on whom he wills; note Exodus 33:19ff; Romans 9:16; Romans 12:1ff. Those who die in their sins receive his justice, and that is neither unjust, or injustice, he owes them nothing.

Therefore we should fear God in his Sovereign execution of justice or mercy, as none are deserving of the latter. All are deserving of the former and are owed nothing. He elects based on nothing in us, and there is nothing good in any of us for him to elect us. He elects according to his plan and purpose. Some judge God as unjust for all this. They need to be very careful here in charging God with such foolishness; Romans 9:27.

 

[Dave L]

Calvinists believe that their doctrine of God's sovereignty brings glory to God, when it is the exact opposite.

The deeper and more serious issue is that Reformed Theology brings division to Christians unnecessarily. The Reformers literally slaughtered thousands of Anabaptists because their doctrine was different. If Calvinists were in control today, no doubt there would be purges and pogroms against non-Calvinists. And then we had the Calvinistic Dutch supporting and encouraging the German Nazis while they mass murdered Dutch Jews.

The State Churches slaughtered Anabaptists because it was war. The Anabaptists also killed people.

Anabaptist Terrorists

When we look back in history as Mennonite Anabaptists, we focus mostly on our persecuted ancestors who we view as Bible-believing, peace-loving, community-minded followers of Christ who were harmless to society and not worthy of the pain, suffering and death they experienced at the hands of the government and religious leaders in the 16thcentury.

We tend to be less aware of the presence and influence of radicalized Anabaptists during that same time who embraced violent revolution and desired to establish what we today would call an “Anabaptist caliphate.” These radicalized Anabaptists were essentially terrorists who caused fear throughout Europe which contributed to the government’s intense persecution of our ancestors by the government leaders.

Three radicalized Anabaptist leaders were particularly infamous during the early Anabaptist years. They are names not generally familiar to us: Bernard Rothman, Jan Matthias and Jan of Leyden. In the same way that ISIS has been attempting to develop an Islamic state using horrific and violent means, Rothman, Matthias and Leyden became radicalized Anabaptists who were committed to developing a New Jerusalem using force and similar tactics.

When Anabaptists were terrorists

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Are you trying to say the church is not a familiar relationship?

Why are the terms father, son, sons of God and others used? Why is Christ called Brother?

You're arguing using persons in the state of conversion and harmony to try and prove the condition between being lost before God. You're making category errors and conflating things.

Still waiting for you to prove your case with scripture. Your point on familial relationship in the church falls short of how God saves since that is everone in their converted state, not a state of lostness and in need of salvation.

You're dodging. Prove your case with Scripture. We already have, we're waiting on you.

 

[Enoch111]

A simple yes or no would suffice. Did Christ die for every sin of every man?

Absolutely. That is precisely what the Bible says.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (Jn 6:51)

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Heb 2:9)

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. (1 Tim 2:5,6)

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (1 Jn 2:1,2)

All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. (Isa 53:6)

The question you should be asking yourself is "When did I stop believing God and chose to believe the lies of men?"