The Goddess Man Has Made

[dragonfly]

To all readers of this thread - especially Roman Catholics who may not own a copy of the Bible, I commend the following verses.



The first group are to help you distinguish between 'Mediator' and 'Redeemer'.

Jesus Christ only, was pure enough to redeem us, and thereby He became the only possible mediator between mankind and God.


1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Job 19:25 For I know [that] my Redeemer lives, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:


Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock, and my Redeemer.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 47:4 [As for] our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts [is] his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel;

The God of the whole earth shall He be called. ​

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.



In the following verses there are fifteen allusions to Christ, solely. No-one else is to get the glory, or share what is due to God alone.

Ephesians 1:7 - 12
In whom [Christ] we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in Him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will: that we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.



John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To Him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's ​

before (v 4)​

​

G1715 ἔμπροσθεν emprosthen (em'-pros-then) adv.
1. in front of (in place or time)
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1722 and G4314]
KJV: against, at, before, (in presence, sight) of
Root(s): G1722, G4314 ​

6 This parable spake Jesus to them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

We're just going to stop and look at the meaning of 'before' in v 8; because it doesn't mean chronologically 'before' as in v 4, (being a different part of speech, and different Greek word completely) but more like put ahead of, in status or superiority.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's​

​

before ​

​

G4253 πρό pro (proh') prep.
1. "fore", i.e. in front of, prior to
2. (figuratively) superior to
{In the comparative, it retains the same significations}
[a primary preposition]
KJV: above, ago, before, or ever ​

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep. 13 The hireling flees because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.



Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I [Paul] know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

 

[aspen]

Axehead,

Church history provides the answer to your question - it was an attempt to stop groups like the Cathars and the countless Christian cults that followed from corrupting doctrine based on private interpretation of the scriptures. The use of a dead language, which was also the language used by literate people for 1800 years seemed like a good way to preserve the truth of the scriptures. Unfortunately, the preservation attempt failed over time, which is evident now by the thousands of splinter groups that call themselves Christian. I am sorry you do not like this explanation - it is not Protestant-friendly, but it is the truth. I recommend that you pick up some church history - Pelikan is scholarly, but can be difficult to read. He was a Lutheran scholar, who eventually joined the Eastern Orthodox Church at the age of 95, after studying and writing about Church history for his entire academic career.

 

[Axehead]

Axehead,

Church history provides the answer to your question - it was an attempt to stop groups like the Cathars and the countless Christian cults that followed from corrupting doctrine based on private interpretation of the scriptures. The use of a dead language, which was also the language used by literate people for 1800 years seemed like a good way to preserve the truth of the scriptures. Unfortunately, the preservation attempt failed over time, which is evident now by the thousands of splinter groups that call themselves Christian. I am sorry you do not like this explanation - it is not Protestant-friendly, but it is the truth. I recommend that you pick up some church history - Pelikan is scholarly, but can be difficult to read. He was a Lutheran scholar, who eventually joined the Eastern Orthodox Church at the age of 95, after studying and writing about Church history for his entire academic career.

Thank you for your response, Aspen. I appreciate you letting us know what your point of view is.

Axehead

 

[Mungo]

Mungo,

I will respectfully ask you the same question I asked Aspen.

What was the reason that the Vatican did not want the Holy Bible to be in the vulgar (common) language?

Thanks,
Axehead

Why do you suggest that the Catholic Church did not want the Bible translated into the common languages of the people?

There were many translations into various languages from fairly early times. Saints Cyril and Methodius even invented a script (later called Cyrillic) to translate into Slavic languages in the 9th century.

There was no general ban but what the Church did ban were corrupt, heretical translations (rather like the NWT today) which heretical sects translated in erroneous ways to support their heresies.

For example by 400AD translations existed in Syriac, Coptic, Ethhiopic, and Georgian Languages.

By 405 there was Jerome’s translation in the Latin (common language of the Roman Empire in the West) although it was not the first translation into Latin.

I think most if not all such bans were made by local councils because of local problems, not by the Pope.

To all readers of this thread - especially Roman Catholics who may not own a copy of the Bible, I commend the following verses.



The first group are to help you distinguish between 'Mediator' and 'Redeemer'.

Jesus Christ only, was pure enough to redeem us, and thereby He became the only possible mediator between mankind and God.


1 Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;



Job 19:25 For I know [that] my Redeemer lives, and [that] he shall stand at the latter [day] upon the earth:


Psalm 19:14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my rock, and my Redeemer.

Isaiah 41:14 Fear not, thou worm Jacob, [and] ye men of Israel; I will help thee, saith the LORD, and thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 47:4 [As for] our Redeemer, the LORD of hosts [is] his name, the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker [is] thine husband; the LORD of hosts [is] his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel;

The God of the whole earth shall He be called. ​

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and to them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.



In the following verses there are fifteen allusions to Christ, solely. No-one else is to get the glory, or share what is due to God alone.

Ephesians 1:7 - 12
In whom [Christ] we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace; wherein He has abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He has purposed in Himself: that in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in Him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things after the counsel of His own will: that we should be to the praise of His glory, who first trusted in Christ.



John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that enters not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To Him the porter opens; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 And when he puts forth his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's ​

before (v 4)​

G1715 ἔμπροσθεν emprosthen (em'-pros-then) adv.
1. in front of (in place or time)
{literally or figuratively}
[from G1722 and G4314]
KJV: against, at, before, (in presence, sight) of
Root(s): G1722, G4314 ​

6 This parable spake Jesus to them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus to them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

We're just going to stop and look at the meaning of 'before' in v 8; because it doesn't mean chronologically 'before' as in v 4, (being a different part of speech, and different Greek word completely) but more like put ahead of, in status or superiority.

Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's​

before ​

G4253 πρό pro (proh') prep.
1. "fore", i.e. in front of, prior to
2. (figuratively) superior to
{In the comparative, it retains the same significations}
[a primary preposition]
KJV: above, ago, before, or ever ​

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief comes not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have [it] more abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd gives his life for the sheep.

12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, sees the wolf coming, and leaves the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catches them, and scatters the sheep. 13 The hireling flees because he is an hireling, and cares not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my [sheep], and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knows me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.



Acts 20:25 And now, behold, I [Paul] know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more. 26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I [am] pure from the blood of all [men]. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you all the counsel of God. 28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which He has purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears. 32 And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Thank you, I own several paper Bible and more on my computer. And I think all Catholics know the difference between a mediator and a redeemer.

-- Uh huh. So then, what is the definition of "Mediatrix?"

A title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Foreigner]

A title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

-- Yup. And the title means "Mediator.:

 

[dragonfly]

Thank you for your comment Mungo, but I think you would agree with me - considering that we are on the internet right now - that the New Jerusalem Bible not being aavailable online is a remarkable oversight by such a large organisation, if it values its members being scripture-literate.

 

[aspen]

I am not a fan of the New Jerusalem Bible - I like the New Revised Standard.

 

[Brother James]

From what I have observed in my limited time on this site is that there is not a single person here (or anywhere else, in my experience) who fully and compltely understands 100% of all of God's truths. We had all better count on God being merciful and fogiving of the things we don't quite get right.

Whether Mary was born in a sinless state is not foundational to faith in Christ. It's simply a teaching. I don't agree with it, but nobody is going to be condemned to hell if they put their faith in Christ but misunderstand some truth or nontruth about the mother of Jesus. I'm not sure where this need to condemn everything Catholic comes from. There are plenty of things in each of our sets of beliefs that somebody else could habitually condemn, but what does that accomplish? Does this need to rub Catholics' noses in what we preceive to be their errors come from a place of love? If you truly in your heart believe so, then I suspect some are suffering from self-dishonesty.

The real problem I have is that all this animus prevents me from having thoughtful discourse with Catholic members here. They're all gun-shy from being constantly harangued and having their beliefs attacked needlessly (in my opinion).

 

[Axehead]

From what I have observed in my limited time on this site is that there is not a single person here (or anywhere else, in my experience) who fully and compltely understands 100% of all of God's truths. We had all better count on God being merciful and fogiving of the things we don't quite get right.

Whether Mary was born in a sinless state is not foundational to faith in Christ. It's simply a teaching. I don't agree with it, but nobody is going to be condemned to hell if they put their faith in Christ but misunderstand some truth or nontruth about the mother of Jesus. I'm not sure where this need to condemn everything Catholic comes from.

Brother James, that is a spurious accusation. We are talking about the doctrine that elevates a human being to the place of Christ. No one is condemning anyone to hell.

There are plenty of things in each of our sets of beliefs that somebody else could habitually condemn, but what does that accomplish? Does this need to rub Catholics' noses in what we preceive to be their errors come from a place of love?

I don't perceive it to be "their error." It is pretty plain from the Scriptures that Mary is not a Co-Redemtrix or Mediatrix.

Can you answer me these questions? Was Jesus being unfair and unloving to the Pharisees who were nullifying God's Word with their man-made doctrines and traditions? Why, was He not being unloving? Was Jesus loving the Pharisees by telling them the truth?

Remember something if you would, Mungo, Neo, Aspen and others are free to post what they want and have posted things contrary to sound doctrine and orthodox Christianity. And they post things that are not only borderline blasphemous, but outright blasphemous. Now, it is true that no one has to respond but if someone does, like I am doing in this thread or others have done in other threads, why should you vilify them?

The moderators have been very generous and gracious to allow them to post what they like. I think that is fine. Would you please allow others to respond?

If you truly in your heart believe so, then I suspect some are suffering from self-dishonesty.

The real problem I have is that all this animus prevents me from having thoughtful discourse with Catholic members here.

James, there are Catholic apologists that are agents to harangue Christian forums and then there are honest, seeking Catholics who are intellectually honest and truly searching for truth. It is easy to tell the difference.

They're all gun-shy from being constantly harangued and having their beliefs attacked needlessly (in my opinion).

Would you also be willing to ask them to stop attacking our beliefs and posting Romish doctrine? Is this a Catholic Forum or Christian Forum. There are numerous Catholic forums and I don't go there to teach my beliefs.

All the best,
Axehead

 

[aspen]

Axehead,

The majority of my posts are not about Catholic doctrine - the posts that are about Catholicism are usually written in response to people like you who make it a habit to attack the teachings of my church.

BrotherJames has decided that focusing on the similarities between the teachings of our Christian Churches is a more productive way to talk with each other - I heartily agree - why are you attacking what he is trying to do? You have already proven to me that you are only interested in fighting with Catholics when you declined my invitation to have a conversation as equals over email. You are also insistent on preaching against the antichrist strawman you have named the Catholic Church despite reason, history, reality, and the outcry of a brother in Christ......can't you see that you have gone too far?

Let's move on from this fighting - I talked with a member of this board on the phone last night and she was considering leaving this board due to the constant conflict - I do not blame her. 'They'll know we are Christian by our love', not our hatred of each other's doctrine.

 

[Mungo]

I am not a fan of the New Jerusalem Bible - I like the New Revised Standard.

I'm not a fan of the Jerusalem either (new or old). I prefer to use the RSV-CE which is online here - http://jmom.honlam.org/rsvce/ & here http://www.ewtn.com/...iblesearch.asp.

I also use the New Ameican Bible which I have on my computer (as well as a paper copy).

-- Yup. And the title means "Mediator.:

It means a mediator (small "m") in a qualified way. It does NOT mean Co-Mediator.

MEDIATRIX

A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. ........

On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. .......

On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ's redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. ......
(Catholicreference.net)

And please remember the qualifications, for example:
"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it. "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 969, quoted from Lumen Gentium)

From what I have observed in my limited time on this site is that there is not a single person here (or anywhere else, in my experience) who fully and compltely understands 100% of all of God's truths. We had all better count on God being merciful and fogiving of the things we don't quite get right.

Whether Mary was born in a sinless state is not foundational to faith in Christ. It's simply a teaching. I don't agree with it, but nobody is going to be condemned to hell if they put their faith in Christ but misunderstand some truth or nontruth about the mother of Jesus. I'm not sure where this need to condemn everything Catholic comes from. There are plenty of things in each of our sets of beliefs that somebody else could habitually condemn, but what does that accomplish? Does this need to rub Catholics' noses in what we preceive to be their errors come from a place of love? If you truly in your heart believe so, then I suspect some are suffering from self-dishonesty.

The real problem I have is that all this animus prevents me from having thoughtful discourse with Catholic members here. They're all gun-shy from being constantly harangued and having their beliefs attacked needlessly (in my opinion).

Good post Brother James.

Thank you for your comment Mungo, but I think you would agree with me - considering that we are on the internet right now - that the New Jerusalem Bible not being aavailable online is a remarkable oversight by such a large organisation, if it values its members being scripture-literate.

I think the hierarchy are slow to grasp the value of the Internet, but part of the problem may be copyright issues. I think the copyright for the Jerusalem Bible is owned by the publishing company.

However I think the New Jerusalem Bible is available here: http://www.catholic.org/bible/

Also paper Bibles are cheap. If we value something we should be prepared to pay a small price for it.

As far as access to an electronic version is concerned I would rather have it on my computer (as I have the NAB) rather than via the Internet as I have to do for the RSV-CE.

Would you also be willing to ask them to stop attacking our beliefs and posting Romish doctrine?
Axehead

For information:

Romish​

• adjective chiefly derogatory Roman Catholic.

(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

Romish adj, Usually derog. Of or resembling Roman Cathoilic beliefs or practices
(The Collins Concise Dictionary)

 

[Axehead]

I will cease from using the word, "Romish". I did not know that. My apologies, Mungo.

Lest we forget....no comments are needed.

1) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Supremi Apostolatus officio. Sept 1, 1883. ASS 16, 1883. 1113.
We judge nothing more powerful and better for this purpose than by religion and devotion to deserve well of the great Mother of God, the Virgin Mary, who is the treasurer [sequestra] of our peace with God, and the mediatrix [administra] of graces....

2) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Superiore anno, August 30, 1884. ASS 17, 1884. 49.
... may He hear the prayers of those who beseech through her, whom He Himself willed to be the mediatrix [administram] of graces.

3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, ASS 24, 1891, 196.
... it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us--for 'grace and truth came through Jesus Christ' [Jn 1.17]--nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.

4) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Iucunda semper, Sept 8, 1984. ASS 27, 1894. 179.
... when He [the Father] has been invoked with excellent prayers, our humble voice turns to Mary; in accordance with no other law than that law of conciliation and petition which was expressed as follows by St. Bernardine of Siena : 'Every grace that is communicated to this world has a threefold course. For by excellent order, it is dispensed from God to Christ, from Christ to the Virgin, from the Virgin to us.' [Internal quote from S. Bernardine, Sermon on Nativity of B. V. M. n. 6.]

5) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Adiutricem populi, Sept 5, 1895, ASS 28, 1895, 130.
For thereupon, by divine plan, she so began to watch over the Church, so to be near and to favor us as a Mother, that she who had beenthe minister [administra] of the mystery of human redemption, was equally the minister [administra] of the grace to be given from it for all time, practically immeasurable power being given to her.

6) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, ASS 31, 1898, 146.
For from her, as in a must abundant conduit, the drafts of heavenly graces are given: '... in her hands are the treasures of the mercies of the Lord'; for 'God wills that she be the principle of all good things.' [Internal quotes are from St. John Damascene, Series I De Nativitate Virginis and St. Irenaeus, Against Valentinus III. 33.].

7) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Diuturni temporis spatium, Sept 5, 1898, ASS 31, 1898, 147.
'God wills her to be the principle of all good things.' [Citing St. John Damascene, Series I De nativitate Virginis.]

8) Leo XIII, Parta humano generi, Apostolic Letter, Sept 8, 1901, ASS 34, 1901, 195.
So may the most powerful Virgin Mother, who once 'cooperated in love that the faithful might be born in the Church', be even now the means and mediatrix of our salvation. [Citing St. Augustine,De sancta Virginitate 6.]

9) St. Pius X, Encyclical, Ad diem illum, Feb. 2, 1904, AAS 36, 1904. 453-54.
Hence that never dissociated manner of life and labors of the Mother and the Son... . there stood by the Cross of Jesus His Mother, not merely occupied in looking at the dreadful sight, but even rejoicing that 'her only Son was being offered for the salvation of the human race; and so did she suffer, with Him, that if it had been possible, she would have much more gladly suffered herself all the torments that her Son underwent' [St. Bonaventure I. Sent. d, 48, ad Litt. dub. 4]. Now from this common sharing of will and suffering between Christ and Mary, she 'merited to become most worthily the Reparatrix of the lost world' [Eadmer, De Excellentia Virginis Mariae, 9] and therefore Dispensatrix of all the gifts which Jesus gained for us by His Death and by His Blood.... But Mary as St. Bernard fittingly remarks [De Aquaeductu 4] is the 'channel' or, even, the neck, through which the body is joined to the head, and likewise through which the head exerts its power and strength on the body. 'For she is the neck of our Head, by which all spiritual gifts are communicated to His Mystical Body.' [St. Bernardine of Siena, Quadrag. De Evangelio aeterno, Sermo X, a. 3. c. 3.]

10) St. Pius X, Litterae Apostolicae, August 27, 1910, AAS 2, 1910, 901.
We, to whom nothing is dearer than that the devotion of the faithful towards the Virgin of Lourdes, the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces, be more and more increased, think we should gladly assent to these wishes.

11) Benedict XV, Litterae Apostolicae, Inter Sodalicia, March 22, 1918, AAS 10, 1918, 182.
... the fact that she was with Him crucified and dying, was in accord with the divine plan. For with her suffering and dying Son, Mary endured suffering and almost death. She gave up her Mother's rights over her Son to procure the salvation of mankind, and to appease the divine justice, she, as much as she could, immolated her Son, so that one can truly affirm that together with Christ she has redeemed the human race. (Again complete and utter blasphemy) But if for this reason, every kind of grace we receive from the treasury of the redemption is ministered as it were through the hands of the same Sorrowful Virgin, everyone can see that a holy death should be expected from her, since it is precisely by this gift that the work of the Redemption is effectively and permanently completed in each one ... further, there is a most constant belief among the faithful, proved by long experience, that as many as employ the same Virgin as Patron, will not at all perish forever.

12) Benedict XV, Encyclical, Fausto appetente die, June 29, 1921, AAS 13, 1921, 334.
For he [St. Dominic] knew well that Mary ... has such influence with her divine Son, that He confers whatever of graces He confers on humans, does so always with her as minister and decision-maker [administra et arbitra].

13) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Galliam, Ecclesiae filiam, March 2, 1922, AAS 14, 1922 186.
She, the Virgin Mother, [is] the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God.

14) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Exstat in civitate, Feb. 1, 1924, AAS 16 1924, 152.
It is clear that many Roman Pontiffs ... have stirred up devotion among the nations to the most clement Mother, the Virgin Mary, the Consoler of the afflicted, and the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God.

15) Pius XI, Apostolic Letter, Cognitum sane, Jan 14, 1926, AAS 18, 1926, 213.
We, to whom nothing is dearer than that the devotion of the Christian people be aroused more and more towards the Virgin who is the treasurer [sequestra] of all graces with God, think we should grant these wishes.

16) Pius XI, Encyclical, Ingravescentibus malis, Sept 29, 1937, AAS 29, 1927, 380.
... we know also that all things are imparted to us from God the Greatest and Best, through the hands of the Mother of God.

17) Pius XII, Encyclical, Mystici Corporis, June 29, 1943, AAS 35, 1943, 248.
May she, then, the most holy Mother of all the members of Christ, to whose Immaculate Heart we have confidently consecrated all people ... ask earnestly that most abundant streams of graces from the lofty Head may flow down on all the members of the Mystical body without interruption.

18) Pius XII, Radiomessage to Fatima, Bendito seia, May 13, 1946, AAS 38, 19465, 266.
... having been associated, as Mother and Minister, with the King of martyrs in the ineffable work of human Redemption, she is always associated, with a practically measureless power, in the distribution of the graces that derive from the Redemption.... And her kingdom is as vast as that of her Son and God, since nothing is excluded from her dominion.

19) John XXIII, Epistle to Cardinal Agaganian, Legate to Marian Congress in Saigon, Jan 31, 1959, AAS 51, 1959, 88.
For the faithful can do nothing more fruitful and salutary than to win for themselves the most powerful patronage of the Immaculate Virgin, so that by this most sweet Mother, there may be opened to them, all the treasures of the divine Redemption, and so they may have life, and have it more abundantly. (this verse is suppose to be about Jesus) Did not the Lord will that we have everything through Mary?"

Discorsi II, 66.
"From her hands hope for all graces.

20) Vatican II, Lumen gentium ## 61-62.
... in suffering with Him as He died on the cross, she cooperated in the work of the Savior, in an altogether singular way, by obedience, faith, hope, and burning love, to restore supernatural life to souls. As a result she is our Mother in the order of grace. This motherhood of Mary in the economy of grace lasts without interruption, from the consent which she gave in faith at the annunciation, and which she unhesitatingly bore with under the cross, even to the perpetual consummation of all the elect. For after being assumed into heaven, she has not put aside this saving function, but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us.By her motherly love, she takes care of the brothers of her Son who are still in pilgrimage and in dangers and difficulties, until they be led through to the happy fatherland. For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer....

 

[Brother James]

Brother James, that is a spurious accusation. We are talking about the doctrine that elevates a human being to the place of Christ. No one is condemning anyone to hell.

It may be your opinion, but it is not rooted in any facts I'm familiar with. I have quite a few Catholic friends. I have discussed Catholic theology with them at length, including one who is a religion teacher at a Catholic high school. Not a single Catholic person I know of, or have ever interacted with, elevates Mary to the place of Christ. That is an accusation I've heard from non-catholics repeatedly, but have not heard from Catholics themselves. It is used in an attacking way. I don't subscribe to the heavier teachings of Calvinism, but I certainly don't use the beliefs I perceive as errant to attack them.

 

[Mungo]

Axehead,

I have neither the time or energy to go through all the quotes you have produced.

However I cannot see how they elevate Mary to being in the place of Christ.

Whether you agree or not that Jesus uses Mary to channel graces to us, they are the graces that Jesus won and that he dispenses. That does not make Mary a goddess.


Take the quotes from Lumen Gentium that you highligted

but by her manifold intercession, she continues to win the gifts of eternal salvation for us.

That is not saying she is the Meritorious Cause of those gifts of eternal salvation, but as it says, she can gain them for us (from Jesus) by her intercession.

the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix.

What is wrong with that? Note the whole sentence and my emboldening:-
"For this reason, the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Auxiliatrix, Adiutrix, and Mediatrix. This however it to be so understood that it takes nothing away, or adds nothing to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator. For no creature can ever be put on the same level with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer"

It's quite clear that Mary is NOT to be considered as elevated to being the place of Christ. She is a creature not a goddess.

 

[Foreigner]

Axehead,

The majority of my posts are not about Catholic doctrine - the posts that are about Catholicism are usually written in response to people like you who make it a habit to attack the teachings of my church.

BrotherJames has decided that focusing on the similarities between the teachings of our Christian Churches is a more productive way to talk with each other - I heartily agree - why are you attacking what he is trying to do? You have already proven to me that you are only interested in fighting with Catholics when you declined my invitation to have a conversation as equals over email. You are also insistent on preaching against the antichrist strawman you have named the Catholic Church despite reason, history, reality, and the outcry of a brother in Christ......can't you see that you have gone too far?

Let's move on from this fighting - I talked with a member of this board on the phone last night and she was considering leaving this board due to the constant conflict - I do not blame her. 'They'll know we are Christian by our love', not our hatred of each other's doctrine.

Aspen,
Axehead has provided specific documented quotes from former Popes, as well as documentation from the Second Vatican Council and the Catholic Catechism itself that run counter to what Catholics on this very board claim to be true. He provides them in-context and with accompanying links where available.

He is then told he is wrong by Catholics here, but they are not able to contradict the facst he posts.. Your criticism of him and his additional rhetoric should just as fervently be directed at Mungo and Neophyte.

And as far as your statement, "Let's move on from this fighting," that should start at home.

When you make statements like:

II guess being right in front of your cronies is better than nothing......carry on.

And broad, unsupported, generalizations condemning entire groups like this:

Protestant demands for Catholics:

1. Prove to our satisfaction that Catholicism follows Sola Scriptura - if you cannot you are not Christian

...you are just as much part of the problem as what you claim Axehead to be.

Blanket condemnation of an entire group without reservation or exception is no better than what you are accusing Axehead of doing.

Especially when - as you are typing it - you already KNOW what you are typing is untrue.

(I have even shared with you that my pastor has said - and I agree - that there are people in the Catholic church two blocks from ours that are going to heaven, yet there some sitting in our very pews who will likely be going to hell.)

Just like when you said that anyone who votes against gay rights is "violating the civil rights of homosexuals," or "Evangelicals" only speak with homosexuals to criticize and condemn them. Both are unfair and dishonest generalizations that are a direct attack on several member of this board.

Condemning every single person in a group without exception does not put you above what Axehead says.
At very best it puts you on the exact same level.

It means a mediator (small "m") in a qualified way. It does NOT mean Co-Mediator.

MEDIATRIX

A title of the Blessed Virgin as mediator of grace. There are two aspects of this mediation. ........

On the first level of mediation, Mary freely co-operated with God in consenting to the Incarnation, giving birth to her Son and thus sharing with him in spirit the labors of his passion and death. .......

On the second stage of mediation, Mary co-operates by her maternal intercession in applying Christ's redemptive grace to human beings, called the subjective redemption. ......
(Catholicreference.net)

-- "Mary co-operates" on her maternal intercession." Translation: Co-Mediator.
Sorry, the small 'm' doesn't work.
The definition of Mediatrix is "a woman that mediates." Period.
If Mary is a Mediator as "Mediatrix" clearly states, and there are other Mediators, she is therefore a Co-Mediator.

 

[Mungo]

-- "Mary co-operates" on her maternal intercession." Translation: Co-Mediator.
Sorry, the small 'm' doesn't work.
The definition of Mediatrix is "a woman that mediates." Period.
If Mary is a Mediator as "Mediatrix" clearly states, and there are other Mediators, she is therefore a Co-Mediator.

Your translation is rubbish.

co- means "with"

co-
prefix
1 (forming nouns) joint; mutual; common: co-author.
(Concise Oxford English Dictionary)

One could say that Pontius Pilot co-operated with God's plan by condemning Christ. The doesn't make him co- anything with God

When we intercede for another by praying for them we are all mediators with a small "m". That does not make us a Mediator along with Christ.


Which bit of.....
"Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it. "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."
(Catechism of the Catholic Church para 969, quoted from Lumen Gentium)

....are you having a problem understanding

 

[aspen]

Mungo - hey there,

Based on recent posts, it looks like the Protestant Christians involved are not interested in discussing doctrine, only declaring themselves right and Catholics wrong. It seems to me that only harm to the community can come from these types of conversation. I have invited Axehead to continue a discussion privately and my invitation goes out to anyone who wants to discuss doctrinal differences or wants clarification on Catholic teachings, but I think we need to refuse to engage in public conversation about catholic doctrine because our clarifications are just being skewed and confused by an unreceptive audience.

I have appreciated reading your posts and have learned new information - thanks

 

[Axehead]

Mungo - hey there,

Based on recent posts, it looks like the Protestant Christians involved are not interested in discussing doctrine, only declaring themselves right and Catholics wrong. It seems to me that only harm to the community can come from these types of conversation. I have invited Axehead to continue a discussion privately and my invitation goes out to anyone who wants to discuss doctrinal differences or wants clarification on Catholic teachings, but I think we need to refuse to engage in public conversation about catholic doctrine because our clarifications are just being skewed and confused by an unreceptive audience.

I have appreciated reading your posts and have learned new information - thanks

Aspen, Mungo, Neophyte,

If you continue to propagate Catholic doctrine on a Christian forum, you have to expect people to speak up. A forum is a like a street corner in the public square/arena. People are free to speak up. If you really have some questions about Catholic doctrine, might I suggest that you go to forums.catholic.org.

It is plain for all to see that you are not really asking questions or seeking clarity about scriptures but rather you are pushing Catholic doctrine in a Christian forum. That, on it's face is ludicrous at best and agitating at worst. What is your motivation for doing such things? You know ahead of time that what you call "Protestants", in the majority, don't accept these beliefs.

It seems to me that you guys are the Chief antagonists and agitators.

I have no interest in being taken away privately, from your public, anti-scriptural pronouncements.

I am on the public street corner with you and everyone else, and I respectfully disagree with your Mariology as orthodox Christian doctrine.

Axehead

 

[aspen]

Aspen, Mungo, Neophyte,

If you continue to propagate Catholic doctrine on a Christian forum, you have to expect people to speak up. A forum is a like a street corner in the public square/arena. People are free to speak up. If you really have some questions about Catholic doctrine, might I suggest that you go to forums.catholic.org.

It is plain for all to see that you are not really asking questions or seeking clarity about scriptures but rather you are pushing Catholic doctrine in a Christian forum. That, on it's face is ludicrous at best and agitating at worst. What is your motivation for doing such things? You know ahead of time that what you call "Protestants", in the majority, don't accept these beliefs.

It seems to me that you guys are the Chief antagonists and agitators.

I have no interest in being taken away privately, from your public, anti-scriptural pronouncements.

I am on the public street corner with you and everyone else, and I respectfully disagree with your Mariology as orthodox Christian doctrine.

Axehead

You know, I have been posting here since 2010 and have never claimed to be a teacher, and certainly not a Catholic Apologist. Conversely, it appears that you just got here and the majority of your posts, including the very thread we are posting on right now, are devoted to challenging Catholic doctrine. I am not sure how you have determined to include me in your list of Catholic antagonists, let alone declaring this 'street corner' as your own, while pushing others aside, but it seems awfully presumptuous to me.

I am not the person that has declared nonCatholics who claim to be Christian as cult members, akin to Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses - yet you have equated Catholicism with both groups. I am not the person who uses derogatory terms like 'Romish' to describe the group of Christians you belong to either. Since you have arrived here, Catholic doctrine has become the central topic - how do you explain this?

Instead of assigning blame in this conflict, why not work to stop the arguing?

 

[Foreigner]

Your translation is rubbish.

co- means "with"

-- Sorry, but it's not my definition. It's the dictionary's definition

Mediatrix = Female Mediator

If others are also mediating, that makes her a "Co-Mediator."

Glad I could clear that up for you.

I am not the person who uses derogatory terms like 'Romish' to describe the group of Christians you belong to either. Since you have arrived here, Catholic doctrine has become the central topic - how do you explain this?

-- Aspen, saying things like:

"Protestant demands for Catholics:
1. Prove to our satisfaction that Catholicism follows Sola Scriptura - if you cannot you are not Christian" is no less a form of demagogery.

And you ignore Catholic doctrinal threads that have been started by the likes of Neophyte.

Give Axehead a break or live up to what you are asking of him.