The Godhead, Diversified Oneness

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KBCid

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to KBCid, stop the rambling, and vain babblings and give some "hard" evidence" of the Godhead. .

When God created plants and animals, He made them after their kind as it states repeatedly in Genesis.
When He created Adam, He formed him in the image and likeness of the God kind.

Gen 9:6 “... for God made man in his own image.

Acts 17:28 ... For we are also his offspring.29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God,
we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art
and man's device.

Indeed the Godhead is just like the its representation in the creation.
Eve was created to represent the other part of the (US) in "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness"

Col 1:15 He (Christ)is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

And just as the woman is the glory of the man so, Christ is the glory of his Father;

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature,
and he upholds the universe by the word of his power...

Though you try very hard to interpret God's word to infer that the only small "g" gods in existence are simply those made up in peoples minds I will point you to Gods words where he shows that there are real "gods";

Deut 10:17 For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty,
and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

You can't be God of gods if there are no real gods just as you can't be a lord of lords if there are no real lords so, if there are real lords then there are real gods.

Psalm 82:1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.

If there are no gods then God cannot judge among them.

Psalm 82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

We were all created as children of God which makes us gods who are lesser to our Father

Psalm 86:8 Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord; neither are there any
works like unto thy works.

if there are no gods then there can be no among them.

Psalm 95:3 For the Lord is the great God, the great King above all gods.

if there are no gods then God can't be above them

Psalm 136:2 O give thanks unto the God of gods: for his mercy endureth for ever.

again How can God be God of gods if there are no gods?

Psalm 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

Singing to nothing in existence according to your POV?

And as always satan one of the first of Gods angelic creations (a morning star) is defined as the god of this world and scripture cannot be broken.

2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4In whom the god of this world
hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Christ who identifies himself in revelation as the "bright and morning star" reveals that he was the first morning star of God's formation.

Rev 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Just as Job was asked to account for his words now you have a chance to account for the words contained in Job;

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who are the morning stars who sang together?
What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth?

The scriptural evidence has been shown. You will deny of course but, that is expected.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. another golden nugget in the diversified oneness treasure chest. our brother Jude, Jude 1:25 "To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen". two nuggets, A. Who is the only Saviour? the Lord Jesus right... lets see. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". what about the prophet David our brother, Psalms 3:8 "Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah". and our brother the apostle Paul, Titus 2:10 "Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things". now let's see if the Lord Jesus is our Saviour. John 4:42 "And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world". just how many witness do one need?.
B. Wise God. 1 Corinthians 1:24 "But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God". 1 Corinthians 12:7 & 8 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit". and the Lord Jesus is that wisdom of God (see again 1 Corinthians 1:24) which make him (the Lord Jesus) the Holy Spirit. for it is the Spirit that manifest these gifts in us".
 

101G

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The scriptural evidence has been shown. You will deny of course but, that is expected.
to KB I'm getting ready form church now, but I assure you I will answer "EVERY" question you presented. until then.... (smile).
 

KBCid

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Angels as Sons of God
Even though the application of 'son of God' to Israel itself is judged to antedate the Israelite use of the title for angels,37 let us consider the latter usage first. In the words of Sigmund Mowinckel, the Israelites could use the word 'god' ('elõhim) of many kinds of subordinate supernatural beings .... It is used to indicate the lower, heavenly beings (literally, 'the sons of God'38) surrounding the throne of Yahweh, who are sent out by Him as His messengers, corresponding to the angels of later times (Judges 13.22).39
This use of 'sons of God', always in the plural, is found in Gen 6.2, 4; Deut 32.840; Job 1.6; 2.1; 38.7; Pss 29.1; 82.6; cf. Dan 3.25.41 If we are dealing here with what is called by Alan Richardson 'an old mythological conception',42 and by James Muilenburg ' a poetic reminiscence of Canaanite provenance',43 the emphasis in these passages (except for Gen 6.2, 4, which are clearly part of an ancient myth about the Nephilim) is nevertheless upon these angels as subordinate to Yahweh an existing to serve him. In Judges 13.22 the words of Manoah after the visit of the angel of the Lord, 'We shall surely died, for we have seen God', indicate that angels were thought of as extensions of the character and power of God, a function not unlike that of a son.44
http://newtestamentresearch.com/NT Research-Mk 2/Son of God.htm#37a
 

101G

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Rev 22:16I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Just as Job was asked to account for his words now you have a chance to account for the words contained in Job;

1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Who are the morning stars who sang together?
What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth?

The scriptural evidence has been shown. You will deny of course but, that is expected.
GINOLJC, to all. first I give thanks unto our Father the Lord Jesus. second, I will answer all of your questions. starting first with the Sons of God as angels theory, it's just that a theory, better yet a false one. KBCid asked, "What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth?". he's said it "WHAT" and not "WHO" because the sons of God are whats. now it's showtime for the Lord Jesus, because you have called us on the carpet. we're going to answer your question up front and then explain it.
Listen up, the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens and the sun and the moon........................ have you stop laughing yet? you should. let's get down to business in explaining this information we have just given.
follow me, step #1. Identifying the FATHER of these sons.
James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning”. The almighty is called the “Father” of lights, this is one of his TITLES, and the word lights here is plural, and is the Greek word, G5457 φῶς phos (fōs') n. which means luminousness. Now hold that thought and go to Thayer's Greek Definitions and or the blue letter bible online. look up G3962 πατήρ pater, (Father)
- Transliteration: Pater
- Phonetic: pat-ayr'
- Definition:
1. generator or male ancestor
a. either the nearest ancestor: father of the corporeal nature, natural fathers, both parents.
THIS IS WHAT MOST PEOPLE THINK WHEN THEY HEAR THE WORD “FATHER”.
but we are interested in the 3rd definition, and here it is, listen.
3. God is called the Father
a. of the stars, the heavenly luminaries, because he is their creator, upholder, ruler.
God is the Father of the “STARS”, and the "heavenly luminaries". Yes, the literal stars in the sky/heavens. google the word stars, please add the “s” to the end of stars, for Job said, morning “stars” not morning “star”. A star is a luminous sphere of plasma held together by its own gravity. The nearest star to Earth is the Sun. Many other stars are visible to the naked eye from Earth during the night, appearing as a multitude of fixed luminous points in the sky due to their immense distance from Earth. Again, the stars are the actual stars in the heavens. Now, go to dictionary.com, or the free dictionary, or any dictionary and look up luminaries in the plural. definition, a celestial body, as the sun or moon. Now let’s see this sun and moon and the actual stars and what they did in Job 38:7. Remember the Almighty said that they sang and shouted for joy. it's a metaphor. Let’s see this metaphor clearly. Psalms 148:1 "Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights. Verse 2 Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts. 3 Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light. 4 Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens. 5 Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created”. uh o, praise him sun and moon?, and the stars also? yes. what do the word praise mean here? It is the Hebrew word, H1984 הָלַל halal (haw-lal') v. which can be translated as “sing”, or “shine”. See the stars, the sun and the moon all sang or praised God by shining their lights. now the bible say out of the mouth of two or more witnes let his word be establish. One more, Psalms 65:13 "The pastures are clothed with flocks; the valleys also are covered over with corn; they shout for joy, they also sing”. The pastures, and valleys also praising God? Yes, how? by shouting for joy and singing. It’s all a metaphor. Do we now understand.

KBCid, do you see your ERROR now?. I'm going to let you digest this for your edification. and I will address those sons of God in Genesis chapter 6.

have you stop laughing now?. if you didn't fine, .............................. (smile). you know what I'm doing. oh well.......
 

101G

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Genesis Chapter 6, "the TRUE SONS" of GOD.
in post #45 above, the sons of God there was revealed as the actual stars, and the actual sun and moon, the heavenly luminaries. since that eliminated angels (THERE) in Job chapter 38, so who are the sons of God in Genesis chapter 6. good question. our answer, that we will give, will also explain the other people found in Genesis 4:14 & 15 and eliminate any pre-adamic gap theory. follow us. Step 1. find out where the "other" people came from. Step 2 back this up with other verses.
it is my belief that these people came from Adam and Eve. clearly the bible states, 1 Corinthians 15:45 "And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit". the bible is the word of God and God don't lie. so we need to find out from the bible where did these people come from. ok, just as we gave our answer up front in the Job 38 question, so shall we give our answer up front about these sons in chapter 6 before we explain it. here it is, "Adam and Eve the first man and woman had Children in the Garden of Eden before they fell into sin, and before they had Cain and Abel outside the Garden in Sin". those who have a spiritual eye might already see the answer. but for those who don't know let's go to the scriptures.
the answer we gave is supported by 2 scriptures, (two witness) in chapter 3, verses 16 and 20 respectively
Step #1. Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire [shall be] to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". notice the language here. first word "conception, it is the Hebrew word, H2032 הֵרוֹן herown (hay-rone') n-m.
הֵרָיוֹן herayown (hay-raw-yone') which means,
pregnancy. please look these words up.
next word multiply, one cannot multiply, or increase something (in this case pregnancy) if it hasn’t already happened. that's high school basic science. example, if I was sitting still in a vehicle, (no motion) for instance. I cannot increase, or multiply my speed in the car unless I'm already in motion. likewise, one cannot increase conception (pregnancy) unless it has already happened, meaning she already had pregnancy before. this verse show us that the woman Eve already had conception, and therefore children from those conceptions. and guess what? without sorrow, which God increased because of the sin. and if one notice, "SORROW" here is the Hebrew word, H6093 עִצָּבוֹן `itstsabown (its-tsaw-ɓone') n-m. which means,
worrisomeness, i.e. labor or pain. again how can one increase what you don't have.
Uh O, are we getting the understanding now? if not, understand this, when God gave the command to Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, (Genesis 1:28) the word replenish, using Word Origin, as with an old English Dictionary like Noah Webster's 1828 Dictionary of American English, it means 1. To fill; to stock with numbers or abundance. so clearly Adam and Eve, in today's language, "was getting busy" before they fell into sin or disobeyed. so clearly verse 16 of chapter 3 reveals to us that they had children in the garden. now one more thing. the bible don't say how long they was having children in the garden before they fell. and their children had children, so this answer also "where Cain got his wife from". also it answers who was the children in chapter 6 who are identified as "sons" of God which is discussed in #2 below.
Step #2. Genesis 3:20 "And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living”. notice the language here again. the personal name Eve itself lets us know that she had children in the garden. for the woman was given the name Eve for a reason. it means she “was” the "MOTHER" of all LIVING, (kjv). “was” is a past tense designation, meaning she “was” a mother already at the time she acquired the personal name. This is why she got the name in the first place to identify who she was, “the mother of all living”. that just told us something about all of her children that are to come now in sin. all her children, before she sinned, “WAS” alive to God, Spiritually speaking. now onward, (from the fall), all her children are in sin, meaning they are dead, spiritually speaking to God. This is the reason why we, of the Adam line after the fall into sin must be, have to be, BORN again. the Lord Jesus explains this in John chapter 3 to a man named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. likewise no one calls anyone mother unless they have living, or had living children before.

The name EVE by itself tells us that she HAD children already. on top of that she was the mother of ALL LIVING, (which eliminates any other race of people outside of her and Adam). why say all living? because all the children she had before the fall into sin was alive spiritually unto God, (these are the sons in chapter 6). Now a few revelations. by having children in the garden before the fall, one can now understand who those other people was that Cain was afraid of. they were his spiritually alive kinfolk, be it 1st, 2nd, 3rd or .... we just don't know how many generations was produce before they fell into sin. why? because the bible was written to us of the fallen line from Adam. we're not spiritual son complete until we have the Spirit, or born again from above, and in the resurrection. back to the question, how long was it that Adam and Eve was having children in the garden before the fall. and how many GENERATIONS of offspring was born unto them before Cain and Abel came alone in the fallen state? only God knows. It could have been hundreds, thousand, or even millions of years. Having children in the garden answers the pre-Adamic error. Please note, there are two lines from Adam, the none fallen line, who are spiritually alive to God, these are the sons of God who are Spiritually alive to God in chapter 6, holy ones and mistaken for fallen angels. the only fallen line, is “US”, who are, or was Spiritually dead to God until he came in our likeness and redeemed us from sin and death. the clear understanding of sons of God in chapter 6 came from reading Ephesians 3:14 "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named”. whole family? yes, the bible was written to us the fallen line in Adam, paradise lost one, and the bible written to us is our way back to paradise regain in Christ Jesus.

I hope this answered the Genesis chapter 6 question on "who are the sons of God".
 

101G

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GINOLJC, Another Diversified Oneness nugget, one God, one person, one shared.
the Lord Jesus is the Holy Ghost in flesh and bones. John chapter 14 verse 16 ”And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever”. this scripture seen innocent enough by itself to an untrained eye, as if someone else, (a different “person”) is coming. let’s see, John 14:18 "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you”. how plain and straightforward can one be. he just said a “comforter” is coming, and then he said, “I” will not leave you comfortless. the Lord Jesus said “I” will come to you. the phase “to you” is audience relevance. that means the Lord Jesus had to come to them (his disciples) when the comforter comes. but another piece of the mystery is solved when the Lord Jesus told them (the disciples) that when he comes that he would “MANIFEST” himself to them, listen, John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him”. Hold it Stop the press, the Lord Jesus just said that he was going to MANIFEST…. "HIMSELF", did one get that? just think for a moment as to what have been said here. the Lord Jesus is coming to his disciple, and he’s manifesting himself to them when he comes. what a revelation. but Judas ask a very very, and I mean very important question in response to what our Lord had just said, listen, the very next verse. John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?”. Good question Judas. now who is the only “person” manifested himself in the bible. that’s a no-brainier. scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal”. when did the Spirit manifested himself? answer on the day of Pentecost. this is the manifestation that Judas asked about in John 14:22, and it is the Lord Jesus who manifested “himself” as he said he would do in "Spirit. question, can the Lord Jesus lie? NO. well that just eliminated another person from the Godhead as a separate "person"

conclusion the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit as the “ANOTHER” of himself. for the Greek word “Another” in verse 16, is the same Greek word that we have been using to identify what we have been saying all alone that the Lord Jesus is the numerical difference (the Equal share) “with” God IN FLESH as Philippians 2:6-8 states, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God. 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men". and G243 allos describes that equal nature that he have AS A MAN.
 

KBCid

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GINOLJC, to all. first I give thanks unto our Father the Lord Jesus. second, I will answer all of your questions. starting first with the Sons of God as angels theory, it's just that a theory, better yet a false one. KBCid asked, "What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth?". he's said it "WHAT" and not "WHO" because the sons of God are whats. now it's showtime for the Lord Jesus, because you have called us on the carpet. we're going to answer your question up front and then explain it.
Listen up, the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens and the sun and the moon........................ have you stop laughing yet? you should. let's get down to business in explaining this information we have just given........

Indeed let us get down to business. I asked you to account for the words contained in Job and the above was the beginning of your lengthy answer to what should have been a simple answer if you had the spirit of truth guiding you. I will place my quoted point here just so you can reread it and understand my reply to your critical error;

Job:1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said, 2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge? 3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. 4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. 5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? 6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; 7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I asked you specifically - Who are the morning stars who sang together? & What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth? and you failed to even pay attention to the tip I gave you in my question. You see this particular reference from God's word is where he talks about a specific time in the creation week, the specific time of the founding of the earth, Now when God was beginning the creation he first made light then he began forming the earth;

Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth...

According to your reply you believe "the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens and the sun and the moon" But, this was your critical error because at this point in the creation there was no stars formed yet, nor a sun or moon. There was nothing but the beings of light he formed in his first command, so, with no physical stars in existence then the only possible beings in existence capable of performing the acts described in Job were the angelic host who he defines as the morning stars and sons of God. You have no recourse in this discussion, you can't magically make it so that God formed the stars before the earth and you cannot explain beings that are singing or shouting at this point in the creation as stated in Job because nothing else existed but that which was formed at the command to form light and as we all know angels are beings of light, even satan as scripture states;

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

The spirit says checkmate and our time in discussion comes to an end.
 

101G

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I asked you specifically - Who are the morning stars who sang together? & What sons of God existed at the founding of the earth? and you failed to even pay attention to the tip I gave you in my question.
if you would have known, you wouldn't have asked, nor gave a tip, so your tip thing is just that an excuse. I answered who the sons of God was in post #45 completely. and what you failed to see, the "light" in the beginning was not "natural" light. second, you ignorantly stated,

According to your reply you believe "the sons of God in Job 38 are the actual stars in the heavens and the sun and the moon" But, this was your critical error because at this point in the creation there was no stars formed yet, nor a sun or moon.
see you didn't read, they "shined" their light on Day 4, LOL. see everything was CREATED from Day one in the beginning. I didn't know that you so ignorant of god word in the Genesis account.... Oh well, nevertheless, I have answered you over and over now it's my time for you to answer me.
question #1. I asked U this question before and you never answered so please answer. question, 1 Timothy 6:13-16 read it again if need be, but the question, if the Lord Jesus is the ONLY ONE who hath "immortality", where do that leave the other two whom you say are in the Godhead. now the scripture is very clear, only means ONE. your answer please.[/QUOTE]
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, Another Diversified Oneness nugget, one God, one person, one shared.
let's up the ante again. the Lord Jesus is the Holy Spirit. plain and clear, the book of Revelation, the seven Letter to the seven churches. the Lord Jesus address the 7 churches, but each letter ends in the Spirit, listen, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches". but was it not the Lord Jesus who speaks.

supportive scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty". Spirit here is capitalized indicating the Holy Spirit.

Conclusion: the Lord, Jesus is the Spirit in flesh and bone.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. it have been a week since this post was created. now it’s time to put this doctrine to the test. in another topic “Non trins are not christians or Jesus followers” in the Unorthodox Doctrine Forum a poster made a good point. and I quote, “The Bible is clear on the nature of the triune God. The logic required to subordinate Jesus as a non-deity (or quasi-deity) was rightly declared heretical long ago and for good reason because it opened the door to numerous other heresies, which are often cloaked in deliberate deception or vagueness. This is one thing the spectrum of Christianity agrees upon! As the Apostle Paul said, there are certainly other gospels floating out there, and are we not called to instruct against the error of those ways?”.
the post states,
A.The Bible is clear on the nature of the triune God.
B.The deity of our Lord Jesus is agree upon, and,
C.there are certainly other gospels floating out there.
several questions was presented in this one post alone, and some answer was given. in light of what the poster said we will re-examine some of the same question and determine if we’re really following the correct teaching of the bible, as the apostle, and the early church disciples was taught.

one statement made was, “The logic of how Jesus is Lord and Savior matters very much, as many have claimed to be in similar positions, and the Bible even warns of us of those who will do it in his name. If you say that anyone could fill the role of Jesus, then your theology is decidedly not Christian”


We like to address “the Lord and Saviour” part of this statement. this question is open to anyone who like to answer it. as one knows we seek after how many “person(s) are in the Godhead.
question, “is the Lord Jesus the Saviour mention in Isaiah 43:11, or is this the one whom many calls the Father”. Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour”. remember this posters made this statement, and I quote, "If you say that anyone could fill the role of Jesus, then your theology is decidedly not Christian". in Isaiah 43:11 is this the Lord Jesus speaking or the one whom most call the Father?.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, since the Isaiah 43:11 dilemma was not touched, The "my God" question clearly prove the diversified "person" in Christ Jesus, scripture, the John John 20:28 dilemma. John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". here Thomas clearly identifies the Son "of" God as God himself. remember "of" translates the genitive case of nouns Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned. and God is subject, and the Lord Jesus is objective. but dosn't the Scriptures states, 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". dose not one say God the Father is the only true God, (as some use in John 17:3). but here in John 20:28 Thomas calls the Son "GOD" so there it goes, God the Son. but that's two Gods, as if what some say is true, that the Father and the Son are not the SAME PERSON. will if that's true then one have a dilemma here in John 20:28. my Lord and My God is Personal. the Son is clearly "God" so can anyone reconcile this verse?.
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. finally the Isaiah 43:11 question was answered, in the topic "Jesus Before His Incarnation", but failed in its effort. The LORD all caps is the Lord Jesus before his Incarnation as the diversified share in flesh and bone in the NT (John 1:1). meaning it's the SAME PERSON only shared.

now we turn our attention to The "my God" question which clearly prove the diversity of Christ Jesus "AS GOD". it is the John John 20:28 dilemma. John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". here Thomas clearly identifies the Son "of" God as God himself. remember "of" translates the genitive case of nouns Of these the subjective and objective are mentioned. and God is the subject, and the Lord Jesus is the objective. but doesn't the Scriptures states, 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". dose not some say God is the Father the only true God, (as some use in John 17:3, we'll get to that also). but here in John 20:28 Thomas calls the Son "GOD" My God. so there it goes, God the Son. but that's two Gods, as if what some say is true, that the Father and the Son are not the SAME PERSON. here is the dilemma. if John was calling the Son God, and he's a separate person from the Father clearly he's identifying a second God, or Thomas is identifying the Lord (the Son) as the only true God. and if that's true then the Son is clearly "God" and the one many call the Father (if separate) is an ERROR in doctrine, meaning it's false. so can anyone reconcile this verse?
 

101G

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GINOLJC, to all. The John 20:28 dilemma, for all those who STILL believe in (the three persons in one), CONSIDER THIS. John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God". HIM, here in this verse, some may say, is the second person of the Godhead. but clearly Thomas call him “GOD”, but does not 1 Corinthians 8:6 states, "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him". the apostle Paul said, “But to us”. who is the “us” here in this verse? I’m going out on a limb here. I believe the “us” here is fellow believers, especially all the apostles who is saying the same thing. meaning they are preaching the same gospel. so to “us”, must include Thomas, and he must know that there “is but one God, the Father”. but was not Thomas addressing the "Son" as God. now if we stop here, Thomas testimony at John 20:28 cannot be TRUE then. because he is calling the Son God, for if we go with "But to us there is but one God, the Father" and stop, then Thomas testimony, would be a false testimony. and if it’s a false testimony then the Lord Jesus is not true, because he didn’t correct Thomas, and if Thomas was not true, and the Lord Jesus did not correct Thomas, then that means the Lord Jesus is not true. can one see the dilemma now. but, if the Lord Jesus is not God, and only the Lord as some suggest, then one have no second person in the Godhead. but on the other hand if the Lord Jesus is true, (and he is) and is GOD as Thomas declared, then the statement the apostle Paul made in 1 Corinthians 8:6 must include the “and” one Lord Jesus Christ in the Godhead as God. now that bring us back to our original dilemma if he’s God and a separate person, how can he be (the Father ARM) if separate. they say God is one being, good, but how can this one being "OWN" Arm be separate from himself. because the Lord Jesus is the "ARM" of God whom many calls the Father. if separate and is God, then one have two Gods. you have now a greater dilemma.

but the answer to this dilemma can be cleared up in two books. a. the book of Daniel chapter Seven, verse 13. b. the book of Isaiah chapter ...... and verse .... but if anyone can reconcile this John 20:28 dilemma please do, the floor is open.
 
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101G

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GINOLJC, I hope so far I have answered some of Naomi25 question, I'm reviewing some old posts, but in my last conversation with KBCid I asked him a question he never answered.
KBCid, will you please tell us who is it that sent "his" angel to John according to revelation 1:1. was it the one whom you calls the Father or the one whom you call the Son. but remember Rev 22:6, read it first before you give your answer. I'll be waiting. thanks in advance.
if he could tell us who sent his angel to John it could clear up many statements he made before like,
1. There is a difference between God and god. The first is eternal with no equal and the second is created.
2. There is no multiplicity of persona in God. God the father is one being. His son the Christ is a different individual being.
3. The difference between us and Christ is that he was the first formed god and his identity was hidden from the beginning.

so KBCid I'll be looking for that answer so we can clear up any misconceptions. thanks in advance.
 

101G

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Let’s clear up the John 20:28 dilemma. TWO BOOKS, if the Lord Jesus is God’s own ARM, how can he be a separate person? he can't, but let's see what and who he is. Daniel 7:13 "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him”. in one’s mind many would say, see, there’s the Father, (the Ancient of days), and the Son, (Son of man, in the clouds coming to him). many will still say, see that’s two persons. the scripture states “they brought him near before him” two him’s right? separate person? let's see. Isaiah 63:5 "And I looked, and there was none to help; and I wondered that there was none to uphold: therefore mine own arm brought salvation unto me; and my fury, it upheld me”. mine is the same as me. just as the two him’s in Daniel 7:13. mine is a possession, it is used to refer to a thing or things belonging to or associated with the speaker. My “own” ARM as the definitions states, “belonging to” who?. now if God’s Arm belong to him then the ARM is not a separate person, just like your own arm is not a separate thing from you the person. the definition also states, “ belonging to or associated with”. do we see this belonging to or associated with in scripture, the word of God? yes. scripture, Zechariah 13:7 "Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones”. this ARM of God is a MAN, an associate. for the Hebrew word for "fellow" here is,
H5997 עָמִית `amiyth (aw-meeth') n-m.
1. companionship.
2. (hence, concretely) a comrade or kindred man.
from a primitive root meaning to associate
KJV: another, fellow, neighbour.
Another word for a companion is an associate. but what's important here is how the KJV can translate H5997 עָמִית `amiyth: "ANOTHER". well let’s see this man, this ANOTHER, who is God’s OWN ARM. Isaiah 53:1 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth”.
well, well, well this is the Lord Jesus. and Zechariah 13:7 states that this man, this ARM of God, is God’s “ANOTHER”. this is exactly what G243 allos states, a numerical difference. and this numerical difference is identified in Philippians 2:6 and 2:7 & 8 verse 6 (God) "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God" NOW THE MAN/FLESH verse 7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross".

conclusion: Thomas testimony clearly Identify the Lord Jesus as God "shared" or diversified in flesh and bone. so the doctrine of 3 in 1 is not correct.
 

101G

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"Polytheism" in doctrine
Polytheism is essentially the belief in or worship of more than one god. It is not a difficult thing to determine in scripture if it is referring to the Almighty God or another god such as Judges or Angels who are also termed Elohim.
Just a little correction, Polytheism is the doctrine of, or the worship of or belief in more than one god. and may I also add "Gods", with the capital "G". (see Isa 45:21).
now the term, Elohim, H430 אֱלוֹהִים 'elohiym (el-o-heem') n-m.
1. gods in the ordinary sense
2. but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God
3. occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates
4. and sometimes as a superlative
[plural of H433]
the answer is in definition #4, when used as a “superlative”. and in the root of the word H433, which we have explain extensively. but, to prove it out from another view point, I’ll use the book of Revelation to prove out this plurality of God oneness, in Genesis 1:26, in John 1:1. and Revelation 1:1. which sustain the doctrine of "diversity". let’s start with Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; 5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood”.

from these two verse alone, one think that the letter is from three person, right. which shows the plurality of God. well we say NO, in a sense as it refers to three persons. let's examine this thing called the plurality of God, in wisdom according to the Spirit. when one read this letter, at face value, one thinks that the letter is from three person. but lets look with spiritual eyes.
Person #1. “from him which is, and which was, and which is to come”. most would say this is the father, right.
Person #2. “from the seven Spirits which are before his throne”. most would say this is the Holy Spirit, right.
Person #3. “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness”. this is a no-brainier here, the Son, right

if it can be prove that all three is the same one person, then there is no doctrine to a three person in the Godhead. or a separation of the Father and the Son. the key is in the descriptive title “Alpha and Omega”
A. “he who which is, and which was, and which is to come”, is the Alpha and Omega, (see Rev 1:8)
B. “the seven Spirits”, is the one who have the seven stares in his hand, Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”. question, who have the seven Stars?, answer, Revelation 1:16 "And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength”. now who is this?, answer, back up to verse 11 "Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea”. some would say that this verse is missing in some of the originals. no problem, he who speak is the first and the last, read down to verse 17. so the one who have the seven spirits is the First and the Last. lets see who is the first and the last. staying here in Revelation, 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. so the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega, so again (see Rev 1:8).
C. “from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness”. we know who this is, the name is given. so who is Jesus Christ. answer the Lord, again (see Rev 1:8).
all three comes back to Revelation 1:8

conclusion, the PERSON in A,B, and C. are all the SAME PERSON in Revelation 1:8 . lets see. "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”.
in Revelation 1:8 we see A. which is, and which was, and which is to come. we see B. “the beginning and the ending”, meaning the First and the Last. we see C. “the Lord”. the Lord ?, yes, where is the seven Spirits? scripture, 2 Corinthians 3:17a "Now the Lord is that Spirit”. this have been proven out before in the 7 letters to the 7 churches. for he who address the 7 churches is the Spirit, the Lord Jesus the Christ. “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches”. and it is the Lord Jesus who addressed the churches. so A,B, and C is the one true God, the “ALMIGHTY”. just as the prophet Isaiah said in 9:6. that son, that child, which is JESUS, who is Lord, and God. Rev. 1:8 proves this out.

so we see that the plurality of God is the same person, shared. let's break this down some more. God have revealed himself in three dispensation, or administration. this is known in his name that identify him as to “WHAT” he is in Exodus 3:14 Moses asked God "WHAT", his name is, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you”. I AM THAT I AM is “WHAT” God is as opposed to God's PERSONAL name of "WHO" he is, JESUS/YESHUA, this is “WHO” God is.
now, the three dispensation of God, in his revealed name as to WHAT he is.
#1 “I AM” = Creator, and Maker. Genesis 1:1, Revelation 1:4 “which is”.

#2. THAT” = Saviour, and Redeemer, John 1:1, Revelation 1:4 “which was”. “The word “WAS” God in flesh and blood.

#3. “I AM” = Comforter, and Mediator, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 1:4 “which is to come”. our retuning KING, in Flesh and Bone.

I AM THAT I AM

the plurality of God is in his name, who is the same PERSON.
 

101G

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GINOLJC. applying true understanding in doctrine.
Genesis 1:26 "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth".
this verse is one of the backbone scriptures of those who believe in three persons. this and also, Matthew 3:16 & 17 "And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased".

we will deal with each versus respectively. Genesis 1:26.straight to the point, the us and we here nowhere in the bible indicate 3 separate persons. it indicate two, how do we know this. let's explain. question, "what is the image of God?" answer, man or "another" of himself as Adam is "another" of himself in Eve. remember the hebrew word for man/Adam can be translated as "ANOTHER". H120 אָדָם 'adam (aw-dawm') n-m. ruddy i.e. a human being (an individual or the species, mankind, etc.).
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person.
there it is "another", which as we have been say all along in the New testament, G243 allos, which means a "numerical" difference, "TWO", or ANOTHER. just as Adam is another of himself in Eve, so is Christ "another" of the Spirit God that was to come in due time manifested as a man. knowing this that the ANOTHER of God, the Spirit, was to come in due time, we can clearly see the "US" and the "OUR" is in reference to the another to come. not then, at the time in Genesis 1:26, but to come in due time made under the LAW, by a Woman. the one who would redeem man, God own image. remember, the another of God was not yet manifested until John 1:1 which we now address in Matthew 3:16 & 17. he that was to come is now came, or is due in time. in Genesis 1:26 was God speaking in time of himself that was to come. for the image man signified the another that was to come. so the Voice in heaven is God's voice, at the same time on earth diversified in flesh, supportive scripture, John 3:13 "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven". at the same time he, (the Lord Jesus) was on earth in flesh, likewise in heaven at the same time the Voice spoke. but what about the dove?. "and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove. question, "where is God?" answer, Jeremiah 23:24 "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD". just as the Lord Jesus was on earth at the same time was in heaven. "diversity" answer the concrete present of the Lord on earth, which is the OBJECTIVE. and at the same time Subjective in the voice in heaven, and the "LIKENESS", not a dove, but in LIKENESS. since God is a Spirit, he Appeared, not manifested, but appeared in likeness as a dove. so the Spirit is the dove, the Spirit is the voice, and the Spirit is the "diversified" manifested man standing in the water. one Spirit, in manifestation, and appearance all at the same time. this is the work or actions of God in diversified oneness.
 

101G

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GINOLJC to all. let us post this for today. many are confused on "diversified oneness" in that this doctrine clearly explains God's plurality. just this morning I received two misconceptions about this belief. A. being two witness. B. Jesus as Saviour in flesh. I will use both statement with scripture to reveal the doctrine. John 12:44 "And Jesus cried out and said, He who believes in me, believes not in me but in him who sent me". here, "me" and "his", indicate two entities, hence two witness. for our Lord said, said believe on "him" who sent me. is not the one who sent him is his "share". scripture, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". but who is God equal? let the scripture, Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?". now this, Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One". no one but God himself. but the question comes up how can the Lord Jesus be EQUAL with God unless he's God. the answer lay within the verses it self. as I have said, just consider. listen, Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God". notice the word "form" in the verse. it's the Greek word,
G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee') n.
1. form.
2. (intrinsically) fundamental nature.
perhaps from the base of G3313 (through the idea of adjustment of parts)
KJV: form
Root(s): G3313
if the Lord Jesus have the same nature as God, then he's God. but being in flesh as verse 7 & 8 point out, how can he have the same nature as God and be in flesh and bone. answer, it's in the root of G3444 μορφή morphe (mor-fee'), which is G3313 μέρος meros (me'-ros), meaning, 1. a portion. 2. a share. 3. a division. NOTICE I BOLD 1 & 2. notice another word for portion is share. understand our Lord and saviour is the "EQUAL SHARE of God himself in flesh. and G243 Allos backs this EQUAL SHARE up. but I like what Wormwood said in a post, "God is spirit, you cant put "part of God" in something anymore than Solomon could have pleased both women by splitting their child in two for each of them to have a part. To have "part of God" is to be less-than-God...and ultimately not God". if something is parted, then one have a separation, and if one say the son is a separate part "of" God then as Wormwood said, "To have part of God is to be less-than-God". so the answer is not separation but sharing. how easy can it get if only one just look at the word of God in earnest.

PS as the saying goes "I can bring you to the water, but can't make you drink". but I can askr you to consider.
 

VictoryinJesus

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Just what is “diversified oneness?” it is the sharing of one PERSON in the Godhead, instead of having, or the separation of PERSONS with one nature. I believe the bible supports only one doctrine, and I believe that doctrine it support is diversified oneness.

We all believe that there is one God, but the sticking point is in person, or person(s). this is what we will zero in on, the PERSON(S) of the GODHEAD. we can start with Genesis 1:26 and go throughout the OT to the end, in the NT which is Revelation. I believe diversified oneness is found in the OT as well as the NT.

I am not sure I understand. What I believe the Spirit has revealed to me throughout scripture is relationship. That God is relationship and His creation testifies to this in the relationship He has designed or presented as His model: husband, wife, father, son, mother, daughter, brother, sister. The two commandments spoken by our Lord speak of relationship. First) Love thy God (relationship). Second) Love thy neighbor as thyself (relationship). Carry one anothers burdens. I get God is One because the Lord said: "Let them be one" as "we are one". But how can the trinity be argued out of it? In Genesis 24 there is the unnamed servant that qualifies a bride (Rebekah) for the son (Isaac) by the well. In those first few chapters leading up to this: the father is present (Abraham) and the son (Isaac) and then in Genesis 24 we have the Holy Spirit (the helper that never testifies of himself). Gifts are given to (Rebekah) foreshadowing the church: A bride for Christ, the son. How can you not believe in the Trinity? A Triune God? FAther, son, and Spirit. I am not sure I follow, maybe I have misunderstood. If you take away "trinity" then there is only One. One is not relationship. Same as the body of Christ is one yet has many members that bring about also...relationship.
 
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