The Great Tribulation

[Trekson]

[SIZE=12pt]Why should the church endure the great tribulation?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]I believe I can answer this question through God's word. "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches." I think it's safe to assume that the whole bible is God's message to the church in one way or another via 2 Tim. 3:16 - “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” (KJV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]A serious believer in a pre-trib rapture might pose this question: What is the purpose of the rapture, if not to keep us from the tribulation and the wrath to come? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]My reply would be that this is the wrong question to ask. As a pre-wrath believer, I agree that the main reason for the rapture is to take us away from God's wrath, which is not for the church according to 1 Thess. 5:9 - “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” As stated earlier, I believe His wrath begins at the opening of the seventh seal. I think a better question the church of God should ask themselves is: Why must the church endure the great tribulation? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Let's take a trip down memory lane to the book of Job. You know the story, he was the richest man on earth yet he lost everything, family, house, possessions, etc. Similar to some of the losses we may face as believers in the midst of the great tribulation. He questions God about the unfairness and seeming injustice of all that befell him. Chapters 38-41 record God's answer to Job. But what brought about his calamity in the first place? [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Job 1:8-11 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]- Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil." "Does Job fear God for nothing?" Satan re-plied. "Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]To put it in a nutshell, Satan was testing Job's faith and God allowed it. During the great trib, Satan is again given permission to test our faith and this time he is allowed to harm our bodies and kill some of us! Why? Because now we are in Christ and our enemy; death, has been triumphed over through Jesus Christ. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Why must the church endure the great tribulation?[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]James 1:2-4 - "[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]Consider it pure joy, my brothers, when-ever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. Perseverance must finish its work so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything." [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt](NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Matt. 13:18-22 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]- "Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path. The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful. (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The 70th week will wean out those for whom Christianity is convenient or for those who use it as a means of good social standing. We will be purified as though with fire.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 Peter 1:5-7 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]- ..."who through faith are shielded by God's power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith--of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire--may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]We must also remember these words of Peter as well. They are of utmost importance.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]1 Peter 4:12-19 [/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]- "Dear friends, do not be surprised at the painful trial you are suffering, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice that you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? And, "If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?" So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good." (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]There are many christians in the world that are suffering this very minute. When the great trib comes among them it will be like "business as usual", but for the other places in the world where christians have become lazy and complacent, it will be a time of severe testing. You may offer up Noah and Lot as examples of people who were rescued from tribulation but keep in mind they did not leave the earth. I offer up Job as an example that God does and will test his people through trials and tribulations, to wean out those who are christians in word only because it has not reached their heart. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]A person may believe that God only does things involving christians for a purpose! His purpose in allowing christians to go through some of the 70th week is to provide a vast witness for Him. Some scholars believe the 144,000 of Rev. 7 fulfill that purpose but I disagree. They are sealed and protected and if they did witness (which scripture never says they do), just preaching the word will not be enough. The world has been preached to for millennia. What greater testimony can God have then people who are willing to lay down their lives for their Lord and Savior, The 144,000 will never become martyrs but as God is ending the world as we know it, in a final time of wrath, I think it only logical that prior to His wrath, God will show the world through the greater witness of martyrdom and other efforts of the church that He is real and that His Son Jesus is Lord of All! [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]However, not all will be martyrs! Some of us will just give up our luxuries and the simple things like a roof over our head and food in our stomach because we will refuse to accept the mark of the beast that will allow us those simples pleasures. Our faith will be in God to provide for us and He will!! Our insanity (from the world's point of view) will hit the news media big time. We will be talked about all over the world, our opportunity to witness will be sure. Some will fail, but hopefully, most of us won't and when judgment day comes for those who witness our seeming insanity because of our faith, it is our job to make sure they won't have an excuse when they stand before God! One final thought. When the church is persecuted and going through hard times, the power of the Holy Spirit is made more manifest and miracles will be witnessed around the world as well. So then it can be truly stated, "When the gates of hell came down to earth, they did not prevail against us!!" Something that could not be said if we were raptured prior to the 70th week![/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] A little about the timing of the great tribulation[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Let’s see if we can narrow down the timing of the great trib. Matt. 24:21 - “For then shall be great tribulation…” This means that the great trib. happens after the events of vs. 4-20, including vs. 15, which has the abomination of desolation. Now what does the following vs. 22 say, “...for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened“. This ties in the fact that the great trib. is affecting believers, not the world in general. I also believe the rapture is what shortens and ends the great trib. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Mark 13:19 & 20 echoes this exact order, but uses the term affliction. Luke 21:22 does as well, using the term vengeance and shows in vs. 28, "And when all these things begin to come to pass, (everything mentioned in the previous verses) then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draweth nigh." (KJV) (words in parenthesis mine) This great tribulation upon believers is the result of Satan's wrath as pictured in Rev. 12:17 - “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman (believing Israel) and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring—those who obey God's commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus (the church).” (NIV)[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Now we come to Rev. 7:9. This great multitude suddenly appears in heaven. They are identified in vs. 14 as "they which came out of great tribulation." Again confirming the great trib is upon believers and not the world in general. You have to go with the flow of all the scriptures, not just a select few. Nowhere in scripture does it say that tribulation or great tribulation will last seven years. Logically, there is only one conclusion and that is this multitude represents the rapture. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]If it is not the rapture, then this also develops a couple of problems for the pre-trib rapture theory. One, is that there must be a second rapture that brings these folks to heaven at the same time before the conclusion of the rest of Revelations, which is not alluded to anywhere in scripture. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]The other is, you can't have both a great apostasy and a great revival happening at the same time. Pre-trib rapturists believe that as a result of missing the rapture there will be a great revival that will sweep across the world but scripture never speaks of this. The scriptures do tell us that there will be a great falling away. 2 Thess. 2:3 - Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition…“ (KJV) This is called the apostasy from the Greek word “apostasia“. My dictionary defines apostasy as, “the abandonment of a former allegiance as in turning away from one’s religious faith. This apostasy will be the result of many believers who feel that they have been misled or lied to by their pastors because they haven’t been raptured or rescued from these hard times as they had always been taught. They will begin to doubt all the other teachings and in the midst of trials and tribulations will fall away from the truth as the parable of the sower explains to us in Matt. 4.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Paul also says in 2 Thess. 2:11&12 - “God will send a delusion so that mankind will believe the lie, that they might be damned who believed not the truth” (NIV). [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This theory of a second chance for a separate group of tribulation saints is not scriptural, especially a multi-national group so large they can't be numbered. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]To conclude, the Great Tribulation is upon believers as explained in 1 Peter 1:5-7, "Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” (the real meaning of Rev. 3:10) In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that your faith-of greater worth then gold, which perishes even though refined by fire-may be proved genuine and may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed." (KJV) [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]This fact is also the basis of the wheat and tares parable. We will be sifted together and only the true spotless body of Christ will emerge from the great tribulation "...having washed our robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14 NIV)[/SIZE]

 

[keras]

Trekson, your post is quite confusing and hard to ascertain what you are trying to prove.
Just two points: asserting that the 144,000 are 'never' said to be witnesses is quite wrong.
Isaiah 66:19 I shall put a sign on them [God's seal, as per Rev 14:1] and some of those survivors, [survivors of the Sixth Seal great ordeal - Rev 7:14; NOT the actual GT ] I shall send to the nations...to distant shores which have not yet heard of Me....
Also Isaiah 49:6 again mentions that the survivors of Israel will be 'a light to the nations and take the Lord's salvation to the earth farthest bounds. The angel in Rev 14:6-7 is an obvious allegory, because people would be terrified by an angel shouting at them!

Re a 'rapture', you have missed the actual scripture that DOES tell us of a removal of the Lord's righteous people from the GT. The GT 7Trumpet and 7 Bowl punishments happen over a 1260 day period and a group 'is given the wings of a mighty eagle, to fly to a place in the wilderness, where they will be looked after for three and a half years'. Revelation 12 tells us all about it.

The great testing time for the whole world is the Sixth Seal event. Luke 21:35 and 1 Peter 4:12 is better translated as: Dear friends, do not be surprised by the fiery ordeal which comes to test you... This refers to the terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath against the nations, described over 100 times in the Bible, as 'fire from the heavens', Isaiah 66:15-16 The Lord is coming in fire.... Zeph. 3:8 ... My burning wrath will consume the whole earth...Habakkuk 3:12 ..in anger I will trample the nations...
This will be our test; will we keep our trust in the Lord for our lives when fire envelopes the earth, when earthquakes destroy cities, when storms and tsunamis flatten everything? Will we 'call upon the Name of the Lord' for His protection and salvation? Joel 3:32, Acts 2:21

Here are the questions I asked in the 'harpazo' thread: Just consider: if you think you are good enough to be removed from the earth before any kind of testing and go to live with God himself, aren't you pre-judging yourself? Isn't that a sin? Shouldn't we be doing the work of spreading the Gospel? Does God need us to help Him in heaven?

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

The problem with mixing verses in competition is that it confuses the subject.

Trekson is right that the 144,000 are not said to be witnesses, and his point that when they arrive - the time for witnessing is done. The final witness is provided by the first of three Angels. This fulfills Mt 24:14, and then comes the end (of the Church Age).

The salient verse which refutes any connection to Isaiah 66 calling the 144,000 survivors being sent out to distant nations is Rev 14:4 - "They follow the Lamb wherever he goes."

That is a factual statement and it is not congruent with the depiction of other sealed individuals in Isaiah. Therefore, assigning Isaiah 66:19 to the 144,000 is in error. Isaiah 66:19 refers to the in-gathering prior to the Millennium; Isaiah 49:6 refers to Jesus.

Furthermore, Kera's confusion in labeling the "GT" as including the Wrath of God manifested by the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments is refuted by the very Great Multitude who are suddenly present in Heaven with the opening of the sixth Seal (Day of the Lord).

His further reason labeling the Elect as being given wings is refuted by Scripture in Revelation 12 from which he derives his "evidence." The difference between the woman and her offspring is set as Jew to Christian because only the offspring worship Christ. Rev 12:17 - "Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring —those who keep God's commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus."

So only the woman Israel (as understood by Joseph's dream in Genesis 37:9-11) is protected. This is the basis for the Remnant Jews "making it" into the Millennium Peace of Christ Jesus.

Finally, the sixth Seal is NOT the time of testing. The test is the midpoint abomination with its two laws: worship or die / take the mark or don't buy/sell. Those that do either FAIL the test! The Bible is explicit in that no one who does either has a place in Heaven or eternal life! The Elect will do neither, and they will suffer terribly - and unjustly so! - and because of that fact: the Great Tribulation is the most terrible time of persecution ever!

God's Wrath is not persecution, but judgment. The wicked deserve the worst; the Elect do not deserve to be killed wholesale - as they will in the Great Tribulation. That is why the Great Tribulation does not encompass the whole of the one 'seven.' It is cut short when God rescues the few who still remain and are left upon the earth.

And remember my friends: you don't have to "make it" to the end to "make it" into Heaven. If you lose your life being faithful to Christ Jesus, you will gain it for all eternity. However, if you try to "save" your life by taking the mark or worshipping the beast, saying to yourself that you have "Jesus in your heart," you are deluding yourself and you will lose your life for all eternity!

Keep the faith, remain steadfast, and endure patiently. The end-times are only beginning to warm up, strap in to Jesus, hold on - there is severe turbulence ahead - but with God as our pilot, you will know true joy later on.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Your questions: "Here are the questions I asked in the 'harpazo' thread: Just consider: if you think you are good enough to be removed from the earth before any kind of testing and go to live with God himself, aren't you pre-judging yourself? Isn't that a sin? Shouldn't we be doing the work of spreading the Gospel? Does God need us to help Him in heaven?"

No one is ever 'good enough". We only have Christ's blood as our covering of righteousness. I think the time of the great trib will entail a time of much testing as 1 Pet. 4:17 implies: "[SIZE=12pt]However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God[/SIZE]?"

It's not a matter of whether God "needs" us or not, it is a matter of Him fulfilling some promises made to the body of Christ that we won't be around to experience God's wrath.

I don't know why folks would want to deny there is such a place as heaven. One of the definitions in the Greek for the word "heaven" is "the abode of God". God is a creator and there is no reason to believe he "stopped" creating after his day of rest or that He began creating with the earth. I believe heaven looks a lot like earth but in its most perfect form and a whole lot bigger. I have a hard time believing that God and the angels and the rest of his creations are just hovering around in the vacuum of space. It makes sense to me that first he would have created a home for the Godhead and the angels. It is said that the Jew's holy relics are just copies of the real things in heaven. Heaven isn't a "duty assignment", it's part of our reward and of Christ's promise in John 14.

 

[keras]

Trekson, have some sense please! I do NOT deny that God lives in heaven. What I do is point out the truth; we are earth creatures, this is our home. God made angels to serve Him in heaven.
[SIZE=medium]Isn't our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven[/SIZE]. Matthew 6:1 [SIZE=medium]But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven[/SIZE].....Luke 6:23 [SIZE=medium]To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. [/SIZE]1 Peter 1:4
[SIZE=medium]Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Marcus, your end times beliefs differ from mine. The Sixth Seal will certainly be a test - for everyone the whole world over: Luke 21:35 and 1 Peter 4:12 refer to it. Revelation chapter 7 follows directly after that terrible event and it describes the Lord's holy people in Jerusalem, [Rev 14:1] having just come out of the great ordeal of the Sixth Seal. Proved by the Seventh Seal being opened after all that, in Rev. 8:1. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 66:19 reads exactly what the 144,000 are and will do. They are given God's 'sign' and they spread the Good News to every nation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Isaiah 49:6 refers to Jesus? It is the tribes of Jacob, the 'survivors of Israel', who are appointed to spread the Lord's salvation. [/SIZE]

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Your scripture quote: "[SIZE=medium]Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be. Rev. 22:12 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.[/SIZE]

Well, that is one way of looking at it, but I believe the picture here is the same as Rev. 19:11 - "And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war."

When you combine that with Is. 59:18 - "According to their deeds, accordingly he will repay, fury to his adversaries, recompence to his enemies; to the islands he will repay recompence."

It's not OUR rewards, Christ is bringing. It's the promised reward of justice and vengeance that the souls under the altar were looking for.

Rev. 6:10 - "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"

When we stand at the Bema Seat judgment of Christ, only believers will be there and it is my opinion that it will occur between the time of the rapture and His second physical advent. Rom. 14:10, 2Cor. 5:10

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Some sense please. Nor does Scripture say our rewards are RESERVED in Heaven and will be disbursed to us on earth.

Nor does Scripture say immortal people live beside mortal people in the Millennium; Scripture DOES say there are mortal people in an unprecedented time of peace, i.e., the Millennium.

People view the world through their view of it. In that sense, some people conclude that since they live on the earth in bodies, they will always live on the earth in bodies.

But if you change your view and consider that we are souls who have bodies ~ then a spiritual home that is every bit as "real" as earth is quite fitting and it IS INLINE WITH Scripture!

 

[keras]

I have studied the subject of what happens when we die and whether we go to heaven then, or later.
I cannot find any verse that specifically says any human does ever go to live in God's dwelling place, only ones that say we don't. John 3:13 is quite clear about it.
1 Cor. 3:11-15 is a interesting description of the coming judgement. Note that it is by fire that we will all be tested.
2 Cor. 5:1-5 does say that the final destiny of believers who keep their faith, will be an immortal body, but that too, does not say we live in heaven. Rev 21:1-4 clarifies the issue; God Himself will come and live on the renewed earth with mankind.

My suggestion to all those who hold onto false beliefs: clear your minds of teachings that are not supported by scripture or remain as Jesus quoted to the Jews: Be always hearing, but never understanding, ever seeing, but never perceiving... Isaiah 6:9-10, Matthew 13:14-15

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

It is amazing to me of what you can find and can't find keras.

Needless to say, I find no support for your contentions. I notice that you tend to believe whatever you think about a verse is true, and no amount of discussion to the contrary could ever change your mind.

I also note that people who sling accusations of heresy, false doctrine, and false belief tend to be rather fanatical in their approach to Scripture, and quite often, I think, that, like you, they are quite erroneous in the conclusions they have formed for their selves and believe wholeheartedly to be true so much so that they will argue until the cows come home and long afterward - that they are right.

 

[keras]

Marcus. I quote scripture to support my contentions.
I believe what the Word says is true, words mean what they say and no person with beliefs unsupported by scripture will change me.

The people I find to be fanatical are those locked into false teachings, esp rapture believers, thinking that they will float up into the sky while the world burns.

The Word is the truth and unless you can show anywhere in it, that at any time humans go to live in heaven, then you believe a lie.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

No you don't "quote" Scripture to "support" your contentions. You cite a verse and make a connection which literally is not there.

I call this in the 'Official Guide to Layman Eschatology' as: "This means this and that means that," brand of exegesis and it's willy-nilly and can lead to all kinds of conclusions which are quite at odds with each other and cannot all be true by principle that truth is what is original and that is singular.

Isaiah 49:6 is all about Jesus. "He said to me," in verse 3 starts an intimate conversation between Father and Son. It is NOT for US to unite the tribes of Jacob and bring back those of Israel and shine a light upon the Gentiles - but for our Lord and Savior!

Likewise Isaiah 66:19 caps the whole of Isaiah's prophecy which is directed for the most part at Israel and it speaks about what will happen in the end times and beyond to her. In a few short verses, Isaiah gives a summation going from the Day of the Lord in verse 15, to the Wrath of God in verse 16 - which IS subsequent as the Trumpets are subsequent to the sixth Seal - AND then moves to the aftermath with the ingathering of the nations in verses 18-20. NEVER in history have the nations accepted Christ Jesus. After the one 'seven,' they will. It is also foretold in Zechariah 8:23. The Millennium peace with all the laws from the last few chapters in Ezekiel is summed up in verse 21. Then in sequential fashion, Isaiah gives the Lord's declaration of a New Heavens and a New Earth. This realm is not on THIS earth, that much we can tell from Revelation's revealed details.

Going on to your "contention" that John 3:13 says no one goes to Heaven - by the very argument Jesus is making to Nicodemus - which is NOT WHERE WE GO after we die - but rather being a witness for the Gospel centering upon becoming a new being with a spiritual rebirth - no one can tell Nicodemus about Heaven because no one (else) has gone there and returned to tell him about it! Notice we NEVER get an after-action report from Lazarus or the little girl Jesus brings back from death. Neither of them tell us what they experienced in dying. There is no one to supply Nicodemus with what he wants - a vision of Heaven - EXCEPT JESUS - and Jesus tells him He isn't going to do it because Nicodemus can't even understand what Jesus is telling him of this world!

So your contentions are just contentious.

I believe what the Word says is true,

No, you believe what you think they say is true. Most people delude themselves that they "know" the truth. What they really "know" is what they think. Don't believe everything you think. And what most people tell themselves is true, is just what they tell themselves. I recommend a book called "Telling Yourself the Truth" by Baccus and Chaplan.

The people I find to be fanatical are those locked into false teachings...

See, there you go again - right with the label of false teaching. You are making a judgment with the very label you apply in condemnation. You won't even look into the Greek verb structure found throughout the New Testament which supports the gathering up of the Elect who are still alive and are left after the Great Tribulation.

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance. That principle is, contempt prior to investigation." -- Rev William H. Poole, 1879.

The Word is the truth and unless you can show anywhere in it, that at any time humans go to live in heaven, then you believe a lie.

I showed you - Revelation 7:9-17! You, however, refuse to accept it. That does not mean it isn't true. It just means you don't accept it.

Trekson also supplied the fifth Seal vision which shows martyred souls - IN HEAVEN - just below the Altar. Theses same souls will become whole with new imperishable and immortal bodies at the end of the one 'seven' when the Two Witnesses - who are in Heaven right now - are finally taken up when their testimony is finished - and their taking up is their final testimony about the Power of God.

So before you bandy about "contentions" that I believe a lie, perhaps you ought to examine what you think - before you tell others what they think.

 

[keras]

Marcus and Trekson, you can continue to hold to your beliefs and I will continue to stick to what I see as scriptural truth.
As we will soon experience the end time events unfolding, the truth of it will become apparent to all. Those who have believed wrong teachings will be embarrassed, but 'will escape with their life, after passing through the fire'. 1 Cor.3:15

BTW, I checked again in the Greek interlinear translation for any mention of 'ouranios -heaven', in Rev 6:9 and Rev 7:9-17. IT IS NOT THERE!
But Rev 14:1 DOES say where the Lamb is: on Mt Zion, in JERUSALEM ON EARTH.
The ONLY verse that says anyone goes to heaven is Rev 11:12, where the 2 witnesses are taken up in a cloud. And that doesn't say they will live there, as that happens just before the end of the GT, when Jesus will Return to earth, probably they will come too, with His army. [yes, both Paul and John visited Heaven as well]

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

My view is not limited by other people's failure of sight.

From the Olivet Discourse, Jesus lays out a linear sequence. In this period of megas thlipsis, or great tribulation, Jesus lists several attributes. First is His compassion for the most vulnerable in mankind. Second is the difficulty for those in Jerusalem. Third is the days are indeterminable, but do allow some of the Elect to survive this period of intense persecution as Jesus says later in the discourse that people living will see the Son of Man coming for them as expressed in Luke 21:28 and as Paul attests plainly in 1st Thessalonians 4:15 and 17. Fourth and lastly, is the possibility of falling away. This again reinforces the warning in Revelation for patient endurance.

The danger of dashed expectations is especially apparent here. If nominal Christians are expecting Christ to alleviate their suffering so much so that they reach out for a false Christ, then they will be lost. The true Elect will not act in such ignorance, or rashness. The purpose then is for the reader to understand and anticipate this level of intense persecution. Anticipating so some preparation may allow an alleviation of the economic want, and an understanding that in the greater aspect of the world, that victory is not in sustaining life physically in this world, but preserving it eternally spiritually by remaining faithful in the Salvation of Christ, even if they lose their life in the process before His return and ultimate triumph.

The aspect of nebulousness in putting forth the days of this great distress means the words of Jesus regarding the date of his second coming in MT 24:36 holds true. Christians can be sure of the mid-point timing for the start of the tribulation, but no strict time exists past that. Patience is the only requirement. In fact, the only promise is that the days are shortened. No clue exists within Jesus’ discourse or Daniel as to how long this period lasts, only that it concludes before all are martyred. While the time until the Great Tribulation can be calculated, no one knows the day or hour of its end. This could take months and with three and a half years before the end of the seventieth ‘seven’ when the judgment reserved for the perpetrators of the Antichrist and the False Prophet will be fulfilled, it could even be more than a year.

The days or length of the Great Tribulation is shortened, as in curtailed, or cut short. The verb κολοβοω even carries the definition of mutilate, and would be used in the agricultural sense of “docking” a sheep’s tail. The sense of the word taken here is that the length of the days of the Great Tribulation is shortened. In trying to get around this sequencing fact, some schools of eschatology say that each “day” is shortened. The problem with making each day less in hours is that the world ends up spinning out of control. While Christians believe in miracles, if you have the Great Tribulation last the entire second half of the one ‘seven,’ in order to have any of the Elect live to see Christ coming on the clouds - those days are going to be very, very short indeed, and the literal physics stretch the idea to past miraculous to just plain ridiculous.

The other problem is that if the Day of the Lord, which happens immediately after the Great Tribulation, now has no time in which to deliver God's Wrath. A third problem with making the days a few hours each and the Great Tribulation 1260 days long is that everyone will know when the Day of the Lord would come, and that simply is not the case. No, as a period of time, the length of the Great Tribulation is cut short, docked as it were from the whole of the rest of the one ‘seven.’ Thus, at a time when no one might be expecting Him; Jesus’ Day arrives. This happens before the Elect are eliminated by either martyrdom or starvation, but how many are to be martyred in fulfillment of the number of the fifth Seal, still keeps anyone from knowing when the Day of the Lord will come.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, I'm in the process of doing a study on heaven and in the course of it, I have come to the conclusion that we are both right and both wrong in some areas. It'll be called "Heaven" and I'll admit not everything was as I thought. Looking forward to your input when it's done.

 

[keras]

Marcus, your post #13 speculates on the duration of the GT. Is that a concern at present?
Then you say the Day of the Lord's wrath is at the Return, after the GT. It is clear to me that the DoL of wrath, occurs at the Sixth Seal, Rev 6:17. It must be the next prophesied event that we can expect, because that is the sequence of Revelation and also Isaiah 61:2, where Jesus stopped His quote. The Great Day of the Sovereign Lord, Rev 16:14 refers to the Return, a different Day, described quite differently. How can the 6th Seal be moved to the Return? Seals must be removed before a scroll can be unrolled.

Trekson, Good on you, study about heaven carefully, its very important to know the truth of scripture. I squirm when Pastors say: our dear friend has gone to be with the Lord in heaven!
Here is an article I wrote:
[SIZE=medium]Heaven is God’s dwelling place[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Heaven is God’s home. Earth is our home. The Lord Jesus, as the Son of God and the Son of man will eventually make Heaven and Earth as one. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Ephesians 1:10…everything in heaven and earth will be brought together under one Head; Jesus Christ.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Just as the separation between heaven and earth will be forever demolished through Jesus, so too will the separation between God and mankind be removed. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 21:3 Now: the dwelling of God is with men and He will live with them. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Zechariah 9:10 The Lord will banish all the things of war, He will proclaim peace to the nations and His rule will extend to the ends of the earth. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]God’s plan is to make all things as one, to remove the separation between the spiritual and the physical worlds. This is the ultimate plan of God and the finale of secular history. When God walked with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden, it was then a part of heaven, but when they sinned, angels with flaming swords kept mankind out and we await its re-establishment on earth. Isaiah 35:1-2[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Will those who will live with Jesus during His Millennial reign, have spiritual bodies? No, because there will be many still alive at His Return, Matthew 24:31 and when He was resurrected, He still ate and drank in a body suited for earthly living.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Revelation 20:4-6…the souls of those who were killed for their faith in God, were resurrected and they will reign with Christ for 1000 years…[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] People who think there is a rapture to heaven, where they believe they will have heavenly, spiritual bodies have failed to understand that God’s purpose from the beginning of humankind, was to establish a place and a people who would exemplify His glory and to share eternal life with Christ. Hebrews 2:14-15, Revelation 22:14[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]For now, we face daily challenges in our lives and on the world scene, but the knowledge that a regenerated earth is coming should reassure us and give us the right perspective. There is a purpose in all that happens, the injustices and suffering will not last, they are part of the testing process we all must go through. God will make everything right, rewarding those who stood firm and trusted Him in all the trials and temptations of this world. 1 Cor. 16:13[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]The people who will live with Jesus in the Millennium period, are being prepared now. Remember, it may not be the proud and self-promoting people who will be chosen, it’s the meek who will inherit the earth. Matthew 5:5 Those people will then be under the benevolent government of the resurrected saints, with Jesus as King. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Will it be boring to be good all the time? It is wrong to assume sin is exciting and righteousness isn’t. That is the Devil’s lie, his basic strategy, but the reality is that sin robs us of fulfilment, sin doesn’t expand life, it shrinks it and sin’s emptiness inevitably leads to boredom. Where there’s fulfilment, where there’s beauty, where we won’t have to scrabble for existence and as God’s mysteries unfold to us, that is the ultimate human utopia. [/SIZE]

 

[David Montaigne]

On the original question, I see no reason for being given all the signs of the tribulation if we won't be here to watch for them. Saints are clearly killed and beheaded during the tribulation. This is the Antichrist's wrath, which lasts for years - which we will suffer through - prior to the brief and awesomely effective wrath of God.

read Antichrist 2016-2019 for a complete argument: http://www.amazon.com/Antichrist-2016-2019-Mystery-Babylon-Caliphate/dp/1501025392

As for the question above: I don't think being good forever singing praises in heaven will be boring - I think the awesomeness of God and His universe, when fully open to us, will be so amazing we will be in a perpetual state of "WOW" and praising His awesomeness

 

[Trekson]

Hi David, While I appreciate your efforts at salesmanship, it might be more productive if you actually wrote an OP describing briefly in your words: "Antichrist 2016-2019 is focused on WHEN the Antichrist is revealed, WHERE his home kingdom of Mystery Babylon is, and WHO will be revealed as the Antichrist." ...the when, where and who. My personal opinion is that the 70th week hasn't started yet so explain why you think it has.

 

[Marcus O'Reillius]

Marcus, your post #13 speculates on the duration of the GT. Is that a concern at present?

I wasn't really all that motivated to answer your "inquiry" because of its adversarial nature, but I will do so now.

First of all, it is not speculation, but discussion. Jesus uses a very specific verb for the cutting off of the Great Tribulation, and it be hooves us to listen to what our Lord says.

That means that the Great Tribulation is not seven years long as many like to refer to the one 'seven' as the "tribulation period." Firstly because it only starts at the midpoint abomination, and secondly because it is so abruptly cut short as in the "docking" of an animal's tail which, by convention, leaves but a stub.

This means we can learn much of the timing of the Great Tribulation within the overall sequence-of-events in the one 'seven.' It lets us know this time of persecution will be vicious, but short, and more importantly, it will not be successful in wiping out God's Elect completely, but Jesus will "steal" the most precious commodity in the world, us, from before Satan can "own" us and right in his face too. Go Jesus!

Moreover, we can understand with the enactment of the two laws at the midpoint abomination from the parallel account within Revelation of the one 'seven' (ch 13-16) how the Elect are to wiped out. Furthermore, we can also understand how limited we will be without food and necessities and the ability to openly travel how difficult this time will be. Some will prepare for it and so have enough "oil" to not have to (take the mark of the beast and) "buy" it like the five foolish virgins.

Second of all, the adversarial nature is more evident in your second, flippant question, which is meant to be derogatory.

This is a forum for discussing eschatology. By it's very nature, much of it is future-oriented. So while it is not a concern of utmost importance NOW, nevertheless, those who are wise will be ready. You might dismiss this all as nonsense, and those who do are not prudent in my opinion.

Right now, the one 'seven' has not begun. One big thing which precedes it is the formation of the fourth terrible beast by the combination of three mighty end-time nations which will unite the northern half of the North Hemisphere. You can discount that living in New Zealand, but I wouldn't count your island surviving the great earthquake at the end of the one 'seven'. We in the USA however, will be directly exposed to the oppression and we will be waged war upon by the anti-Christ. Our concern is more immediate than yours.

Still at any time, we have at least three and a half years before the Great Tribulation begins.

Then you say the Day of the Lord's wrath is at the Return, after the GT. It is clear to me that the DoL of wrath, occurs at the Sixth Seal, Rev 6:17. It must be the next prophesied event that we can expect, because that is the sequence of Revelation and also Isaiah 61:2, where Jesus stopped His quote.

Here you err greatly.

First, it is not I who say the Lord's Wrath comes on the Day of The Lord, but the Old Testament Prophets who speak to Israel about how terrible this day will be for her.

Second, it is not I who say the Day of The Lord with its perquisite and prior sun/moon/star sign comes after the Great Tribulation, but none other than Jesus who says the sun/moon/star event (which is also part of the sixth Seal) come immediately after the Great Tribulation in Mt 24:29.

So let's get our prophetic facts straight.

As to God's Wrath following the Rapture, that is evident in the Seal/Scroll chronology whereby the Great Multitude come out of the Great Tribulation to stand before God the Father in the third Heaven where John reports from Revelation chapter 4 to 11. After that - first Trumpet which supplies the blood and fire (two of three elements for the Day of the Lord's Wrath) is sounded. Rescue - Wrath: just like Noah and Lot.

As to you "clear" vision, no Biblical proportioned Wrath like the Trumpets or Bowls occurs with the sixth Seal. That is your conclusion, and like the sayings of the wicked, which John truthfully records, does not mean it happens when you say it does.

Furthermore, your next conclusion saying "it must be the next event," demonstrates how many intervening events between now and then you don't see at all.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Marcus, Please consider this opinion on the "midst" of the week.

Dan. 9:24,27: 24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy….27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Many believe that vs. 24 was all accomplished by Christ and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and on the surface it does seem like a couple of them were but within the context, ALL of them were not and it isn’t a smooth fulfillment of the prophecy. One has to stretch and twist the scripture for that explanation to be adequate.

The word “consummation” from vs. 27 is “kalah” (H3617) and implies a complete and total destruction. This must be accomplished before the Most Holy can be anointed. The most Holy is either the temple or Christ or even both at the same time. The abomination of desolations as well as the desolator (a/c) is what must be totally eliminated from the face of the earth.

There are two other phrases I want you to take note of. The first, from vs. 27 is “in the midst of the week”. Many assume this means the exact middle of the 70th week, but I don’t believe that is what is being said here. The word for “midst” is “chetsiy” (H2677). Yes, this word can mean “halfway” but when it does, the word “half” is almost always used as in …”after the first half of the week…” but the scripture doesn’t read that way. It is also translated as midst in Jos. 10:13, Ps. 102:24, Jer. 17:11 all implying a “part of a whole.” I like to use this example. Let’s say there is a bible chapter with nineteen verses. The beginning of the chapter is vs. 1, the end of the chapter is vs. 19, the middle of the chapter is vs. 10 but from vss. 2-18 we are in the midst of the chapter.

 

[Raeneske]

Hi Marcus, Please consider this opinion on the "midst" of the week.

Dan. 9:24,27: 24) Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy….27) And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Many believe that vs. 24 was all accomplished by Christ and the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and on the surface it does seem like a couple of them were but within the context, ALL of them were not and it isn’t a smooth fulfillment of the prophecy. One has to stretch and twist the scripture for that explanation to be adequate.

The word “consummation” from vs. 27 is “kalah” (H3617) and implies a complete and total destruction. This must be accomplished before the Most Holy can be anointed. The most Holy is either the temple or Christ or even both at the same time. The abomination of desolations as well as the desolator (a/c) is what must be totally eliminated from the face of the earth.

There are two other phrases I want you to take note of. The first, from vs. 27 is “in the midst of the week”. Many assume this means the exact middle of the 70th week, but I don’t believe that is what is being said here. The word for “midst” is “chetsiy” (H2677). Yes, this word can mean “halfway” but when it does, the word “half” is almost always used as in …”after the first half of the week…” but the scripture doesn’t read that way. It is also translated as midst in Jos. 10:13, Ps. 102:24, Jer. 17:11 all implying a “part of a whole.” I like to use this example. Let’s say there is a bible chapter with nineteen verses. The beginning of the chapter is vs. 1, the end of the chapter is vs. 19, the middle of the chapter is vs. 10 but from vss. 2-18 we are in the midst of the chapter.

The anointing of the most Holy (capital H, by the way) refers to the temple in heaven, not the temple on earth. This is a common error amongst Christians, which is why many continually look to Jews and to Jerusalem, instead of at the Christians and the Heavenly Temple. A very clear truth is opened up to us in Revelation -- that there is a temple in heaven.

Revelation 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

What is going on, and what has gone on in the temple of heaven is not a subject of study, though it should be a subject of much study. The earthly temple and it's services were a type of the Heavenly services which have taken place, and are taking place to this day. The anointing of the most Holy has certainly already happened. If you recall, the temple of earth had to first be anointed, and all the vessels thereof, before they were put to use. So too, was the temple in heaven anointed before it is put to use by our High Priest, Christ Jesus. So, after the death and resurrection of Christ, after His ascension, the most Holy place was anointed.

Not only has the most Holy place been anointed, but too, all of Daniel 9 has been fulfilled already. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD is spoken of by Christ himself.

Matthew 24:15-16 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Mark 13:14 But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Luke 21:20-21 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

The abomination of desolation standing in the holy place and the encompassing of Jerusalem by armies, are Rome. Rome is the abomination of desolation, the armies which surrounded Jerusalem. The armies backed off for a time, and all the Christians took this as a sign to flee from Rome, as Jesus had predicted would happen. Thus, not only was Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14, and Luke 21:20-21 fulfilled, but the part of Daniel 9 about the destruction of Jerusalem was also fulfilled. Christ's referral to Daniel 9 proves that this is the very event spoken of in Daniel that was fulfilled in 70 AD.