The Inquisitions

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pia

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I too just presumed that Satan presented himself before the Throne.
Reading Job 1:6 seems to suggest that the sons of God ( not men ) did indeed come before God, but how satan was able to, has been a big question mark in my mind since I read that.
Since Jesus, we have open access to our Father, but I am fairly certain that in the Bible it does not give us that impression from the beginning. Except for Adam, Eve and a couple of chosen people who were able to hear God, He only came among men once a year inside the Holy of Holies.....Isn't that what it tells us ?
 
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Helen

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Reading Job 1:6 seems to suggest that the sons of God ( not men ) did indeed come before God, but how satan was able to, has been a big question mark in my mind since I read that.
Since Jesus, we have open access to our Father, but I am fairly certain that in the Bible it does not give us that impression from the beginning. Except for Adam, Eve and a couple of chosen people who were able to hear God, He only came among men once a year inside the Holy of Holies.....Isn't that what it tells us ?

I know some do not agree, but I myself believe that the "son's of God" referred to in Job are the angels...could be wrong...we won't know until later on eh? :)

Another thing...I believe that God dwelt between the cherubim's above the Ark of the Covenant. I believe the Glory cloud filled the Holy of Holies. Just like His 'seen' Presence was in the Pillar of Cloud by day, and the Pillar of fire by night.
Again...that is only how "I" read it! :D
 
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pia

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I know some do not agree, but I myself believe that the "son's of God" referred to in Job are the angels
This is what I was taught that it meant by that first pastor I spent time with too....Does it say that God's presence was always on the Mercy Seat ? Sorry, I got that wrong then, as I thought it was only when Israels sins were 'paid' for once a year...Thank you :D
 

Helen

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..Does it say that God's presence was always on the Mercy Seat ? Sorry, I got that wrong then, as I thought it was only when Israels sins were 'paid' for once a year...Thank you :D

It was once a year that Arron went in with the blood into the Holies of All.
BUt...
Ex 25:8 "And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. ... 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in ..."
Like other things...I "believe " His Shechinah glory rested there...I just had not thought it any other way!
That is WHY these Christian Sites are so good....it challenges our belief systems, otherwise we just stagnate :)
You could well be right Pia. Funny when one gets something in their heads it just stays there as if it is correct...maybe it is, maybe it isn't.
Thanks for the nudge. :)
 
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pia

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@"ByGrace" I am going to have a good read myself about this, because as you say, we do sometimes just go with the first things we hear.....I do realize that it won't affect my salvation, but I would still like to understand better...Thanks very much for that, as I now also know where to go have a look.....I can certainly understand why God would have been so very happy to have been let out of there ( when the curtain rent ) if He had been stuck there all that time lol :)
 
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BreadOfLife

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Good point, I have never considered that before. I too just presumed that Satan presented himself before the Throne.
Maybe, but just as easily 'maybe not'.
Just another argument which cannot be proved or disproved from either side. :)
Rev. 21:27 proves it.
NOTHING unclean can enter Heaven.
 

Helen

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Rev. 21:27 proves it.
NOTHING unclean can enter Heaven.

True...and will be so at the end of the book of Revelation...
....but we know from scripture that there are more than just one heaven.
I believe this probably took place in the second heaven.
I believe the second heaven is where Michael and his Angels battle with Satan and his....
But no-matter...no big thing either way..
 
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bbyrd009

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@"ByGrace" I am going to have a good read myself about this, because as you say, we do sometimes just go with the first things we hear.....I do realize that it won't affect my salvation, but I would still like to understand better...Thanks very much for that, as I now also know where to go have a look.....I can certainly understand why God would have been so very happy to have been let out of there ( when the curtain rent ) if He had been stuck there all that time lol :)
ha, good one. Kind of reveals the point of the mercy seat, imo; God was coming to people where they were at in their perceptions, iow
 
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Triumph1300

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True...and will be so at the end of the book of Revelation...
....but we know from scripture that there are more than just one heaven.
I believe this probably took place in the second heaven.
I believe the second heaven is where Michael and his Angels battle with Satan and his....
But no-matter...no big thing either way..

(In regards to: Quote: Rev. 21:27 proves it.
NOTHING unclean can enter Heaven.)

I believe this scripture is not about heaven, I believe it refers to the New Jerusalem.

During Job's days satan did talk to God and that happened in heaven.
At a later point he was kicked out:

King James Bible
...... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
 
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BreadOfLife

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(In regards to: Quote: Rev. 21:27 proves it.
NOTHING unclean can enter Heaven.)

I believe this scripture is not about heaven, I believe it refers to the New Jerusalem.

During Job's days satan did talk to God and that happened in heaven.
At a later point he was kicked out:

King James Bible
...... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Satan and his angels were thrown out of Heaven before Adam was created.
This was the start of evil.

As for the New Jerusalem - it is HEAVEN, which comes OUT of the current Heaven..
Read the first verse of this chapter:
Rev. 21:1
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea.
 

Helen

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During Job's days satan did talk to God and that happened in heaven.
At a later point he was kicked out:
King James Bible
...... for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Sorry , I can't go there with you.
Not for one moment do I believe that Satan was still 'in Heaven' during Job's time...I believe he was kicked out before Adam's time!!

You mentioned him being 'in heaven'...as I mentioned, the scriptures show many heavens. I agree, he does not have access in and out of the heaven of heavens where God's throne is. Come to that...no one yet is "in Heaven" where God's throne is...except the glorified man Jesus Christ our Lord.

But , that is what I believe... :)
 
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Triumph1300

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Not for one moment do I believe that Satan was still 'in Heaven' during Job's time

I did not say that. I did not say "still" in heaven.
Why do people sometimes twist your words? Beats me!
---------------------------------------

Anyhow, here it is:


Job 1:6-12 records a time when Satan was free to accuse even Job before God:

6. One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

7. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”

8. Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”

9. “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied.

10. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land.

11. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”

12. The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD. (Job 1: 6-12).
 

Helen

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I did not say that. I did not say "still" in heaven.
Why do people sometimes twist your words? Beats me!

What you said was-
During Job's days satan did talk to God and that happened in heaven.
At a later point he was kicked out:

It sure sound like you did to me.
You say at a later point he was kicked out. Which speaks to me as if he was still "in" heaven.

Not that it matters one fig.
 
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amadeus

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Reading Job 1:6 seems to suggest that the sons of God ( not men ) did indeed come before God, but how satan was able to, has been a big question mark in my mind since I read that.
Since Jesus, we have open access to our Father, but I am fairly certain that in the Bible it does not give us that impression from the beginning. Except for Adam, Eve and a couple of chosen people who were able to hear God, He only came among men once a year inside the Holy of Holies.....Isn't that what it tells us ?
God is really everywhere all of the time, but within the Most Holy Place or Third Heaven access by anyone else is limited to those who are qualified. What qualifies them?

Everyone, I believe, who has ever truly repented that first time has been in 1st heaven... although some have sooner or later left to dwell outside of the camp.

2nd heaven a smaller number have been there. For me it is the hardest one to define.

3rd heaven? I believe that no sin ever has occurred there and certainly no one with unrepented sin can enter in there.

When it comes to a devil, what should we expect?

Consider that beast, unclean and clean, were saved in the ark which Noah built under the direction of God... how difficult is it for a beast to make it to the highest level?

"But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:10-11
 
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pia

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@amadeus This is such a huge subject, because it crosses those boundaries set by God in the beginning, between men and angels, which was then broken by some of them...Them having then lost all the light ( glory?) and become darkness, which we know from Genesis cannot mix with the Light???...That is the bit which puzzles me, as that could not have ( by Gods own word ) taken place...No darkness can enter Gods Kingdom, which is all Light...Perhaps we just don't have all the facts, which I see as the biggest problem facing those who only go by the written accounts, without understanding from above...
 

amadeus

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@amadeus This is such a huge subject, because it crosses those boundaries set by God in the beginning, between men and angels, which was then broken by some of them...Them having then lost all the light ( glory?) and become darkness, which we know from Genesis cannot mix with the Light???...That is the bit which puzzles me, as that could not have ( by Gods own word ) taken place...No darkness can enter Gods Kingdom, which is all Light...Perhaps we just don't have all the facts, which I see as the biggest problem facing those who only go by the written accounts, without understanding from above...

But consider God...!

"If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee." Psalm 139:11-12


And then consider what He has for us...

"And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there." Rev 21:23-25


And what we shall be...

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
 
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