The Last and Final Evil Kingdom of Daniel

[Jay Ross]

Daniel does not write of the 4th beast evolving into another beast. Instead, that beast is killed and it's body given to flame at the coming of God.

But Daniel does write about a four facetted beast which is an amalgamation of the four beasts described in Daniel 7:1-12, which comes on the scene after a 1,000 years has past after all of the beasts were judged at the time of Armageddon.

You just have all of the facts out of order.

 

[Earburner]

Do not pat yourself on the back yet because your understanding is still all screwed up.

The four horns that grew up in place of the notable horn did so while pointing to the four winds of heaven. Why did they the rise upwards towards the four winds of heaven?

Oh, the four winds of heaven are the beasts in heaven who exercise influence over people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires to do their respective bidding. Yes, the Little Horn was involved around 160 BC when the temple was trampled for a time, but it was not the fulfilment of the 2,300 year span for the prophecy.

Your attempt to match prophecy with history is a little off to say the least.

Goodbye

> "The Four winds of heaven" is symbolic for the four compass points of the earth.

> My attempt to "match prophecy" with the actual history, could be off just a little bit, of maybe only 1.0 percent.
However overall, the accuracy is derived from the tools of correct measurements: the books of Daniel and 1 Maccabees, with the guidance of God's Holy Spirit, and that of a good knowledge of Ancient History.

> Using Jewish time of 360 days in a year, the timing of the 2300 day prophecy is found in the words of Daniel 8:13-14.
The 1290 days took place WITHIN the 2300 days, which reveals 730 days (2 years) remaining, in which Antiochus Epiphanes troddened down both the army of Israel and the temple.
> Then after, for a period of 280 days, the temple was left in ruins. 1 Maccabees 3:45. But during that time Judas Maccabeus/Israel continued fighting against king Antiochus Epiphanes, as well as Lysias and Ptolemy. 1 Maccabees 3:27-39

Dan. 8[13] Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation,
to give both the sanctuary [temple] and the host [army of Israel] to be trodden under foot?
[14] And he said unto me, Unto [the end of] two thousand and three hundred [2300] days;
THEN [for 45 days later] shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

> Now, one must to do the math of WHEN Antiochus Epiphanes troddened down the army of Israel, and WHEN the temple was trodden down also.
(Please see 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4 for the actual dates and times of when and how Antiochus Epiphanes operated in his time of war against Israel).

> The prophetic time frame of the AoD of the temple, and then it's restoration is understood in Dan. 12
[11] And  FROM the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate [be] SET UP, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety [1290] days. Then came 730 days of war against Israel by king Antiochus Epiphanes, and then additional skirmishes of war for 280 days through Lysias and Ptolemey, while the temple was left in ruins by Antiochus].
All of that war with Antiochus Epiphanes, Lysias and Ptolemy totals: 1290+730+280=2300 days.
1290 days- the troddening down of the temple; 730 days- the troddening down of the army of Israel; 280 days- the continuance of war with Antiochus, and then with Lysias and Ptolemy.

> As for the temple restoration (under Judas Maccabeus-the prince of Israel), that was 45 days later, which when added to the 1290 equals 1335 days. However, the 45 days is AFTER the 2300 days, and is not to be included in the math of 2300 minus 1290. (Dan. 8:13-14).
[12] Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty [1335] days. [Which was the 45 days of the temple cleansing of restoration, and its rededication].
1 Maccabees 4:36-56
[36] Then said Judas and his brethren, Behold, our enemies are discomfited [in disarray] let us go up to cleanse and dedicate the sanctuary.

 

[ewq1938]

But Daniel does write about a four facetted beast which is an amalgamation of the four beasts described in Daniel 7:1-12, which comes on the scene after a 1,000 years has past after all of the beasts were judged at the time of Armageddon.

You just have all of the facts out of order.

No, that's you. Daniel said the first 3 beasts live past the death and burning of the 4th beast. There are no other beasts beyond those 4 in Daniel.

Dan 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
Dan 7:5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
Dan 7:6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

 

[Jay Ross]

> My attempt to "match prophecy" with the actual history, could be off just a little bit, of maybe only 1.0 percent.

Just this claim is enough for me to reject your theories of the End Times.

You go against even what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26. Paul was writing about when Israel, that is all of descendants of Jacob would be redeemed, and that has not happened yet.

You have ignored the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy that spans the first four ages of the nation of Israel's existence.

Jesus in the Mt Olivet discourse foretold when Israel would be restored. In Matthew 24, Jesus is recorded as giving an imprecise time indicator as to when Israel would be redeemed and when the end of the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy's fourth age would occur.

My understanding is that the completion of the third and fourth ages of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and the children's children will end in around 20 years' time give or take a few years to account for any errors in understanding.

> "The Four winds of heaven" is symbolic for the four compass points of the earth.

Can I point out to you that "winds" is symbolic of spiritual entities that presently resides in Heaven and that these four winds of heaven are the beasts that exercise their influence over people groups, kingdoms, nation and empires who move into and out of the respective influence of the four winds of heaven. As we cannot see from where the winds come from or go to, we cannot say that the four winds of heaven are the four cardinal points of the compass.

I am happy to allow the next 20 years or so to roll by to either confirm or disprove my understanding of when God will redeem Israel and enter into once more the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Nations covenant. Whether I will still be alive when this present age end is really up to God to allow me to see my understanding being fulfilled with the completion of the Time of the Gentiles trampling both God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts.

If as you say the Danisl 8 prophecy of the 2,300 year was fulfilled in the Books of the Maccabees, then why has the trampling of God's earthly hosts continued for over 2,000 years from that time and is continuing even today before our very eyes.

Oh, it seems to me that your claimed 1% error in you reasoning is far greater than you realise.

Goodbye.

 

[Jay Ross]

No, that's you. Daniel said the first 3 beasts live past the death and burning of the 4th beast. There are no other beasts beyond those 4 in Daniel.

That may be your POV but John in the Book of Revelation recorded that the four heavenly beasts as recorded in Daniel 7:1-12 return 1,000 years after they are imprisoned in the Bottomless Pit and are released and these four beasts appear to act as one singular beast with all of the same identifying characteristics of the first four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 as recorded in Daniel 7:19ff and in Rev 13 and 17.

Yes, you have quoted Daniel 7:4-12 to justify your rational but you have missed the fact that the beasts are the four winds of heaven that influence people groups, nations, kingdoms and empires to willingly do the four winds of heavens' bidding.

You have not been able to see what is plainly recorded in the Scriptures. As such your understanding is off and not in line with what God has recorded in His prophetic scriptures.

Goodbye

 

[Earburner]

Just this claim is enough for me to reject your theories of the End Times.

It doesn't matter what we reject or accept. The prophecy is Dan. 12, and the facts about the AoD are historically recorded in 1 Maccabees, with Jesus Himself attesting to it, by referencing it for His own purpose, using typology.

You go against even what Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26. Paul was writing about when Israel, that is all of descendants of Jacob would be redeemed, and that has not happened yet.

Without having faith in Jesus first, before death, there is no other hope for anyone of Israel. Rom. 8:9 and Rom. 10:12

You have ignored the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy that spans the first four ages of the nation of Israel's existence

"The daughter of Zion" is not exempt, nor is she above and beyond the Grace of God, through the Sacrifice and shed blood of Jesus Christ.
To be waived from death, by common lamb's blood on door posts and lintles, no longer applies to God's "Passover" from eternal death. However, that which was shed by "the Lamb of God", does cause us to be passed - over, whereby we who are believers in Christ "shall never die. Believst thou this?" John 11:26

Jesus in the Mt Olivet discourse foretold when Israel would be restored. In Matthew 24, Jesus is recorded as giving an imprecise time indicator as to when Israel would be redeemed and when the end of the Exodus 20:4-6 prophecy's fourth age would occur.

That "restoration" of the Israeli people back to God, comes only by ONE way.
Except a man be born again of God's Holy Spirit, through faith in Christ, he CANNOT enter into the KoG. John 3:3-8

My understanding is that the completion of the third and fourth ages of the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers upon their children and the children's children will end in around 20 years' time give or take a few years to account for any errors in understanding.

That vicious circle of a parents' sin visiting upon their children, ends for the children, in the day that they are "born again" of God's Holy Spirit. John 3:18

Can I point out to you that "winds" is symbolic of spiritual entities that presently resides in Heaven and that these four winds of heaven are the beasts that exercise their influence over people groups, kingdoms, nation and empires who move into and out of the respective influence of the four winds of heaven. As we cannot see from where the winds come from or go to, we cannot say that the four winds of heaven are the four cardinal points of the compass.

What is being shown in Rev. 4:7 of four beasts at God's throne, has no correlation whatsoever of the four beasts being depicted in Dan. chs. 7&8.
Rev. 4[7] And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

> Because there truly is no other biblical description of who or what the four beasts are in Rev., imaginative speculation will be the only rule for a conclusion.

I am happy to allow the next 20 years or so to roll by to either confirm or disprove my understanding of when God will redeem Israel and enter into once more the Kingdom of Priests, a Holy Nation and God's possession among the Nations covenant. Whether I will still be alive when this present age end is really up to God to allow me to see my understanding being fulfilled with the completion of the Time of the Gentiles trampling both God's Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts.

Again, the people of Israel today and future, are not greater than the Grace of God's salvation, made available to each of us, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. All else is faith in vanity, whereby ALL of such "shall surely die".

If as you say the Danisl 8 prophecy of the 2,300 year was fulfilled in the Books of the Maccabees, then why has the trampling of God's earthly hosts continued for over 2,000 years from that time and is continuing even today before our very eyes.

Luke 13
[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate [deserted, alone, abandoned, void of God]:
and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see [perceive] me, until the time come when YE shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord [aka. Born Again Christians]
Luke 19
[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

Oh, it seems to me that your claimed 1% error in you reasoning is far greater than you realise.

Goodbye.

The prophecy, and then the history revealing it as being fulfilled, is what is accurate.

 

[Earburner]

The church of the latter days will have more knowledge of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. What older generations thought really isn't noteworthy. Most of them, if they were honest w/ themselves, if they knew 1948 was going to happen would change their minds.

In case you don't know your history, 1948 was not of God*, but rather of "the synagogue of Satan", aka the Jewish family of Rothchild, who are Luciferians, and do worship **Lucifer and his false benevolence (**satan, though they say otherwise).

Rothschild family - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

* this is what was really of God: KJV Dan. 9:27...
and for the overspreading of abominations he [Jesus] shall make it [the temple] desolate [deserted, void of God] even until the consummation,
and that determined [in verse 24] shall be POURED UPON the desolate [those who are deserted and void of God]. Acts 2:17-18.

 

[Jay Ross]

It doesn't matter what we reject or accept. The prophecy is Dan. 12, and the facts about the AoD are historically recorded in 1 Maccabees, with Jesus Himself attesting to it, by referencing it for His own purpose, using typology.

Without having faith in Jesus first, before death, there is no other hope for anyone of Israel. Rom. 8:9 and Rom. 10:12

"The daughter of Zion" is not exempt, nor is she above and beyond the Grace of God, through the Sacrifice and shed blood of Jesus Christ.
To be waived from death, by common lamb's blood on door posts and lintles, no longer applies to God's "Passover" from eternal death. However, that which was shed by "the Lamb of God", does cause us to be passed - over, whereby we who are believers in Christ "shall never die. Believst thou this? John 11:26

That "restoration" of Israeli people back to God, comes only by ONE way.
Except a man be born again of God's Holy Spirit, through faith in Christ, he CANNOT enter into the KoG. John 3:3-8

That vicious circle of a parents' sin visiting upon their children, ends for the children, in the day that they are "born again" of God's Holy Spirit. John 3:18

What is being shown in Rev. 4:7 of four beasts at God's throne, has no correlation whatsoever of the four beasts being depicted in Dan. chs. 7&8.
Rev. 4[7] And the first beast was like a lion, and the second beast like a calf, and the third beast had a face as a man, and the fourth beast was like a flying eagle.

> Because there truly is no other biblical description of who or what the four beasts are in Rev., imaginative speculation will be the only rule for a conclusion.

Again, the people of Israel today and future, are not greater than the Grace of God's salvation, made available to each of us, through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. All else is faith in vanity, whereby ALL of such "shall surely die".

Luke 13
[35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate [deserted, alone, abandoned, void of God]:
and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see [perceive] me, until the time come when YE shall say,
Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord [aka. Born Again Christians]
Luke 19
[41] And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
[42] Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
[43] For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
[44] And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.

The prophecy, and then the history revealing it as being fulfilled, is what is accurate.

It seems that the best solution is for us to agree to disagree.

You are being very prescriptive in your decrees of how Israel has to act to be redeemed. For me, that is God's prerogative as to what His requirements are for Israel to be redeemed.

We all should be rejoicing that Israel is seeking after God and that God's purposes for Israel will be fulfilled.

Goodbye

 

[Earburner]

It seems that the best solution is for us to agree to disagree.

Okay, no problem.
Between us, it doesn't matter if we agree to agree or disagree, but it does matter to God the Father and the Son.

It is THEY (Elohim) who have committed to the ultimate sacrifice of their very Being of One. So much so, that in order for them (Elohim) to save us (their creation), we all being fallen, a sinful and rebellious people, they had to enact the ONLY plan available to them, that it would be God's Eternal sinless Son who was to come here to earth, to shed His holy (sinless) blood, and die OUR penalty of eternal death, of which we all DESERVE, and NOT HIM!

You are being very prescriptive in your decrees of how Israel has to act to be redeemed. For me, that is God's prerogative as to what His requirements are for Israel to be redeemed.

I am not being "prescriptive" in any way!
All of what you (and all) do hear from me, is that which the Holy Spirit, aka the mind of Christ, teaches.

I am bound to NO denominational understanding or doctrine, nor do I read or rely on the commentaries from "the wisdom of men", to prepare what I inwardly understand. I simply study the word of God, seeking Him only, for His understanding of what He MEANS, through His use of our human words of language.

We all should be rejoicing that Israel is seeking after God and that God's purposes for Israel will be fulfilled.

And that I shall always do, as long as they that are of Israel, who seek after God, do so by the only way for our salvation, by having faith in that of God's joint sacrifice of His only begotten Son, Jesus. John 3:16-18.

Goodbye

Shalom.

 

[covenantee]

For me, that is God's prerogative as to what His requirements are for Israel to be redeemed.

Faith and obedience in and to Him and His Son have never failed.

 

[Earburner]

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Have you considered the following understanding, referencing the historical record of 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4?

KJV Dan 7:8 I considered the [10] horns, and, behold, there came up among [but not of/from] them another [separate] little horn, before whom [prior to himself] there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots [the first 3 horns were the Ram-2 horns and Alex the Great- 1 horn]:
and, behold, in this [little] horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things [Antiochus Epiphanes IV of the Seleucid empire].

The little horn arose "in the latter time of their kingdom" [of the Grecian 3rd beast], while the 4th beast, the Roman Empire, was in it's beginning stages, of becoming the 4th beast.

After Alex the Great died, then came the four horns, which were the 4 Hellenistic kingdoms of Cassander, Ptolemy, Seleucus, and Lysimachus. Dan. 8:23.
The little horn, Antiochus Epiphanes, arose out of the Seleucid empire, of whom committed "the abomination that maketh desolate".