The Last and Final Evil Kingdom of Daniel

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For futurists, the final kingdom spoken of by Daniel is the one that is most important to us today. When read in the context given, it demolishes the false eschatology (or lack thereof) of preterism. It speaks of a kingdom that will rise at an “unknown period of time”, “after” Rome. This unknown period of time is also known as the “gap” between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week per Dan. 9:24-27. This “gap” is refuted by many, imo, because of their lack of faith in God’s prophetic word and that lack of faith, imo, has blinded them to the truth given in the whole of prophecy combined. They fail to see the whole and try to divide the prophecies into little digestible pieces to try and prove that everything has been fulfilled already but, imo, they fail miserably.

This final kingdom is first mentioned in Dan. 2:33b-34 - “…his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.” It’s further described in vss. 41-43 - “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” The part, however, that is important to us is in vs. 44 - “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Now we know this is speaking of the final beast kingdom of the future a/c as depicted in Rev. 13 because Christ has yet to set up his earthly kingdom that will consist of Israel as the leading nation of the world in the millennium. The next time we see this final kingdom of Daniel is in Dan. 7. Contrary to popular opinion the beasts of Dan. 7 begins w/ Meda-Persia. Babylon is not mentioned here because at this time it’s reign is close to the end and the prophecy focuses on the kingdoms that “shall arise” after Babylon, Dan. 7:17. Many preterists mistakenly believe the 4th beast is Rome because it mentions the word “iron” but that is not the main focal point of the description given. The main focal point is the “ten horns” which connects it to the ten toes of Dan. 2. Dan. 7:7-8, 11 - “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.This description of the head of the final kingdom is given in future prophecies. Notice Daniel “considered the “horns” and “not” the iron teeth. Also notice that in the verses following its description and destruction (9-10, 12-14) it speaks again of a future earthly kingdom in vs. 14 which we know is the physical millennial kingdom of Christ.

The little horn of Dan. 7:8 is mentioned again using a different metaphor in Dan. 8:9-12. His end is foretold in Dan. 8:23-25 - “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.” This again speaks of his final time that Christ will destroy upon his second advent.

The disputed “gap” period is also plainly in the linear context of Dan. 9:24-27. There are three events listed, 1. Messiah will be cut off, (which ends the 69th week) followed by, 2. the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (70ad) which is followed by an “unknown period of time after it” 3. the start of the 70th week by an agreement with “many” of Israel. (covenant, but not a religious one). How people can read this and believe it is speaking of Christ is beyond me and not the future leader of the “final kingdom” of Daniel is beyond me.

Daniel is again given a vision in Dan. 10:8 and the explanation of it begins in cp. 11. The last king mentioned in Daniel begins at verse 21 and, imo, this speaking of the a/c. As I was doing this study God opened my eyes to something I had read probably a hundred times or more and I’ve never seen this point brought up before. One of the definitions of the word “covenant” is the word “league”. In Dan. 11:23 it says, “And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.” I believe this is speaking of the covenant spoken of in Dan. 9:27 which should put to rest the idea that it is Christ spoken of in vss. 27. Dan. 11:22, imo, confirms this, “And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Who is the prince of the covenant? I believe Dan. 9:26-27 tells us that it is “the prince to come” who is the one who that confirms a covenant (league) for 7 yrs. And this should be proof that it is “not” Christ that is being spoken of here. Many of these prophecies are confirmed to be still future in the Revelation of Christ given to John and in some of Paul’s writings in Thessalonians, you know the ones, Rev. 13 and 17;7, 12. These describe who we call the a/c in many cases using the same type wording as Daniel does.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,974
2,507
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For futurists, the final kingdom spoken of by Daniel is the one that is most important to us today. When read in the context given, it demolishes the false eschatology (or lack thereof) of preterism. It speaks of a kingdom that will rise at an “unknown period of time”, “after” Rome. This unknown period of time is also known as the “gap” between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week per Dan. 9:24-27. This “gap” is refuted by many, imo, because of their lack of faith in God’s prophetic word and that lack of faith, imo, has blinded them to the truth given in the whole of prophecy combined. They fail to see the whole and try to divide the prophecies into little digestible pieces to try and prove that everything has been fulfilled already but, imo, they fail miserably.
I held to both Futurism and the Gap Theory many years ago, but had to surrender it to simple logic--not lack of faith. One does not have a "70 Week Period" if any part of it is subtracted, ie a "Week," making it less than a 70 Week Period!

I believe, along with many historical scholars (not just "popular opinion"), that the 70th Week was the time when Christ came to fulfil the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9. He was "cut off," and the "people of the prince to come" was the Roman Army coming to destroy the "city and the sanctuary" in the generation of Jesus. The "prince" here is a generic reference to a Roman leader, and is not, I think, to be confused with the Antichrist.

Though I'm a Futurist, my brand of Futurism does not comport with your definition of it. I'm a Futurist and yet believe that the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7 referred to the Roman Empire. This is a scholarly opinion, and not just a "popular opinion." Vestiges of the Roman Kingdom have remained throughout history, and continue to exist today and will assume the form of the Antichristian Empire soon, in my view.
Contrary to popular opinion the beasts of Dan. 7 begins w/ Meda-Persia. Babylon is not mentioned here because at this time it’s reign is close to the end and the prophecy focuses on the kingdoms that “shall arise” after Babylon, Dan. 7:17.
I'm familiar with this view, but it's denial is hardly the product of "popular opinion." Since the Early Church, Christian scholars have believed that the Roman Empire was the "4th Kingdom of Daniel." Though what you say is true about Babylon being at the end of its era when Daniel had this dream, it is not therefore to be excluded as the set of 4 previously established in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream. A comparison between the two dreams establish their correspondence.
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
12,127
2,579
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only difference I see with that interpretation is that the "legs of iron" does represent the old pagan Roman empire.

Mention of the iron again in the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, is actually a 5th beast. This is why Daniel 2:35 (which you appear to have left out), reveals ALL FIVE PIECES of the beast statue, smitten together as one...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the
iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV


That "stone" of course represents The Lord Jesus Christ.

All 5 PIECES are smote together. That reveals all 5 of those past beast kingdoms of history will be re-established together AS ONE... for the end, when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet and destroy it.

It's about "one world government", with a one-world king, and one-world religion.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,235
1,260
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
For futurists, the final kingdom spoken of by Daniel is the one that is most important to us today. When read in the context given, it demolishes the false eschatology (or lack thereof) of preterism. It speaks of a kingdom that will rise at an “unknown period of time”, “after” Rome. This unknown period of time is also known as the “gap” between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week per Dan. 9:24-27. This “gap” is refuted by many, imo, because of their lack of faith in God’s prophetic word and that lack of faith, imo, has blinded them to the truth given in the whole of prophecy combined. They fail to see the whole and try to divide the prophecies into little digestible pieces to try and prove that everything has been fulfilled already but, imo, they fail miserably.

This final kingdom is first mentioned in Dan. 2:33b-34 - “…his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.” It’s further described in vss. 41-43 - “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” The part, however, that is important to us is in vs. 44 - “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Now we know this is speaking of the final beast kingdom of the future a/c as depicted in Rev. 13 because Christ has yet to set up his earthly kingdom that will consist of Israel as the leading nation of the world in the millennium. The next time we see this final kingdom of Daniel is in Dan. 7. Contrary to popular opinion the beasts of Dan. 7 begins w/ Meda-Persia. Babylon is not mentioned here because at this time it’s reign is close to the end and the prophecy focuses on the kingdoms that “shall arise” after Babylon, Dan. 7:17. Many preterists mistakenly believe the 4th beast is Rome because it mentions the word “iron” but that is not the main focal point of the description given. The main focal point is the “ten horns” which connects it to the ten toes of Dan. 2. Dan. 7:7-8, 11 - “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.This description of the head of the final kingdom is given in future prophecies. Notice Daniel “considered the “horns” and “not” the iron teeth. Also notice that in the verses following its description and destruction (9-10, 12-14) it speaks again of a future earthly kingdom in vs. 14 which we know is the physical millennial kingdom of Christ.

The little horn of Dan. 7:8 is mentioned again using a different metaphor in Dan. 8:9-12. His end is foretold in Dan. 8:23-25 - “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.” This again speaks of his final time that Christ will destroy upon his second advent.

The disputed “gap” period is also plainly in the linear context of Dan. 9:24-27. There are three events listed, 1. Messiah will be cut off, (which ends the 69th week) followed by, 2. the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (70ad) which is followed by an “unknown period of time after it” 3. the start of the 70th week by an agreement with “many” of Israel. (covenant, but not a religious one). How people can read this and believe it is speaking of Christ is beyond me and not the future leader of the “final kingdom” of Daniel is beyond me.

Daniel is again given a vision in Dan. 10:8 and the explanation of it begins in cp. 11. The last king mentioned in Daniel begins at verse 21 and, imo, this speaking of the a/c. As I was doing this study God opened my eyes to something I had read probably a hundred times or more and I’ve never seen this point brought up before. One of the definitions of the word “covenant” is the word “league”. In Dan. 11:23 it says, “And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.” I believe this is speaking of the covenant spoken of in Dan. 9:27 which should put to rest the idea that it is Christ spoken of in vss. 27. Dan. 11:22, imo, confirms this, “And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Who is the prince of the covenant? I believe Dan. 9:26-27 tells us that it is “the prince to come” who is the one who that confirms a covenant (league) for 7 yrs. And this should be proof that it is “not” Christ that is being spoken of here. Many of these prophecies are confirmed to be still future in the Revelation of Christ given to John and in some of Paul’s writings in Thessalonians, you know the ones, Rev. 13 and 17;7, 12. These describe who we call the a/c in many cases using the same type wording as Daniel does.
I'm a futurist but do not believe in the "gap" theory. Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week. Not at the close of it. It says Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week, meaning DURING the 70th week.

Nor do I believe the 4th kingdom of Daniel comes after Rome, nor do I believe any of Daniel's kingdoms are even talking about Rome.

The 4th kingdom came from out of the 3rd kingdom, and was partly fulfilled in the Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who is a type of the man of sin of 2 Thess 2 - but not everything that was prophesied was fulfilled by him. Much of it has already been fulfilled, but not all of it.

The beast that existed before John received the Revelation, and no longer existed when John received the Revelation, but will rise again from the abyss, is described with the same symbols: lion, leopard, and bear in Revelation 13:2 that symbolize Daniel's first three kingdoms. In the book of Daniel, the 4th kingdom comes out of those, and in Revelation 13:2, it's a combination of them all. So we're looking at a Middle-Eastern kingdom.

I'm not unique in this view. There are other Christians who hold to the same view about the 4th kingdom of Daniel, but disagree with me on the gap theory of Daniel 9:26-27 (hence agree with your view of the gap theory).
The Seleucid kingdom, the Ptlolemaic (Egyptian) kingdom, and the Roman republic

In 170 B.C Antiochus IV of the Seleucid kingdom attacked Egypt, succeeded in his campaign, and installed a puppet king.

Then he withdrew - but the kingdom reverted to the rule of the Ptolemaic Egyptian kings after his withdrawal, so in 168 B.C Antiochus IV attacked Egypt again, but this time he was forced to withdraw because the Roman republic, allied to Egypt, threatened him with war with Rome if he did not, and Rome had a powerful navy at its disposal.

Gaius Popillius Laenas, Roman ambassador, drew a circle around Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 B.C and told him to consider himself at war with Rome if he steps out of the circle before giving the ambassador a reply as to whether or not he would withdraw from Egypt. (Painting by Louis-Jean-François Lagrenée).

This is recorded in Daniel 11:29-30, and this is the only place in Daniel's prophecies aside from Daniel 9:26 that Rome is mentioned.

In 167 BC, Antiochus IV ordered an altar to Zeus, "the king of the gods" erected in the temple in Jerusalem, and compelled Jews to dissolve the laws of Judea, to keep their infants un-circumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar (see Daniel 8:11-14; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11) - but he did not stop there:

He also placed an image of Zeus in the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem - the "abomination of desolation in the holy place" - but he did not stop there:

He identified himself with Zeus.​
 
Last edited:

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I held to both Futurism and the Gap Theory many years ago, but had to surrender it to simple logic--not lack of faith. One does not have a "70 Week Period" if any part of it is subtracted, ie a "Week," making it less than a 70 Week Period!

I believe, along with many historical scholars (not just "popular opinion"), that the 70th Week was the time when Christ came to fulfil the 6 things mentioned in Dan 9. He was "cut off," and the "people of the prince to come" was the Roman Army coming to destroy the "city and the sanctuary" in the generation of Jesus. The "prince" here is a generic reference to a Roman leader, and is not, I think, to be confused with the Antichrist.

Though I'm a Futurist, my brand of Futurism does not comport with your definition of it. I'm a Futurist and yet believe that the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 and 7 referred to the Roman Empire. This is a scholarly opinion, and not just a "popular opinion." Vestiges of the Roman Kingdom have remained throughout history, and continue to exist today and will assume the form of the Antichristian Empire soon, in my view.

I'm familiar with this view, but it's denial is hardly the product of "popular opinion." Since the Early Church, Christian scholars have believed that the Roman Empire was the "4th Kingdom of Daniel." Though what you say is true about Babylon being at the end of its era when Daniel had this dream, it is not therefore to be excluded as the set of 4 previously established in Nebuchadnezzar's Dream. A comparison between the two dreams establish their correspondence.
The 70th week was never subtracted, it was suspended because Israel failed to accomplish the goals of Dan. 9:24. The 6 things were "not" for Christ to fulfill but Israel, however, Christ laid the foundation for when, in the fullness of time, Israel will complete them. To put them in the proper context one should read Dan. 9:24 like this: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the (national) transgression, and to make an end of (national) sins, and to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Israel will accomplish the final three after Armageddon when they escort Christ into Jerusalem (after Armageddon), which will complete the visions and prophecies of the church age and then anoint Christ as King and Messiah of Israel.

To understand the reference to "the people of the prince to come" one must realize that the word "prince" is "not" speaking of Titus but of the a/c as shown in vs. 27. The "people" that destroyed the city were "not" the Roman army. Very few, only the leaders, were Romans. This siege was considered small time and Rome wasn't going to waste their valuable soldiers over this relatively small skirmish. The Roman army of 70ad was made up of conscripted soldiers from the nations surrounding Israel that Rome has already conquered, the eastern part of the Roman empire.

Let's do a quick outline of the various prophecies. Dan. 2 had "five" empires starting w/ Babylon and ending with the final kingdom of the ten toes. Dan. 7 had "four" empires starting w/ the second of the statue and ending w/ the ten horn kingdom which is reflected to the 10 horned beast of Rev. 13. Dan. 8 has "three" empires, Meda-Persia, Greece and then the little horn which goes back to the 10 horned beast and the ten toes of the statue. Daniel 8 totally ignores Rome because despite what many historicists think, in God's eyes, it wasn't that big of a deal. These last metaphors are what the prophecies are highlighting. Very few scholars, if any, agree w/ my position but I believe the prophecy of Dan. 12:4 regarding that "knowledge will increase" includes both secular knowledge and prophetic knowledge. I think the last paragraph of my post explains how Dan. 9:27 and 11:22-23 connect quite nicely and refer to the kingdom of the a/c.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only difference I see with that interpretation is that the "legs of iron" does represent the old pagan Roman empire.

Mention of the iron again in the feet of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, is actually a 5th beast. This is why Daniel 2:35 (which you appear to have left out), reveals ALL FIVE PIECES of the beast statue, smitten together as one...

Dan 2:34-35
34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

35 Then was the
iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.
KJV


That "stone" of course represents The Lord Jesus Christ.

All 5 PIECES are smote together. That reveals all 5 of those past beast kingdoms of history will be re-established together AS ONE... for the end, when Jesus comes to smite it upon its feet and destroy it.

It's about "one world government", with a one-world king, and one-world religion.
I agree w/ you and the ten toes weren't left out they were connected to the 10 horned beast of Dan. 7. I affirm that the ten toes, ten horned beast and the little horn all reference the final a/c kingdom hence the title of this post. But it's not about a one world government, king or religion. It's about the ten nation a/c confederacy that the a/c will form that will include Israel and Jerusalem as his capitol in a false fulfillment as the "messiah" in his "attempt" to deceive the world but it will only be partially successful.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I'm a futurist but do not believe in the "gap" theory. Messiah was cut off AFTER the 69th week. Not at the close of it. It says Messiah would be cut off AFTER the 69th week, meaning DURING the 70th week.

Nor do I believe the 4th kingdom of Daniel comes after Rome, nor do I believe any of Daniel's kingdoms are even talking about Rome.

The 4th kingdom came from out of the 3rd kingdom, and was partly fulfilled in the Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who is a type of the man of sin of 2 Thess 2 - but not everything that was prophesied was fulfilled by him. Much of it has already been fulfilled, but not all of it.

The beast that existed before John received the Revelation, and no longer existed when John received the Revelation, but will rise again from the abyss, is described with the same symbols: lion, leopard, and bear in Revelation 13:2 that symbolize Daniel's first three kingdoms. In the book of Daniel, the 4th kingdom comes out of those, and in Revelation 13:2, it's a combination of them all. So we're looking at a Middle-Eastern kingdom.

I'm not unique in this view. There are other Christians who hold to the same view about the 4th kingdom of Daniel, but disagree with me on the gap theory of Daniel 9:26-27 (hence agree with your view of the gap theory).
The Seleucid kingdom, the Ptlolemaic (Egyptian) kingdom, and the Roman republic

In 170 B.C Antiochus IV of the Seleucid kingdom attacked Egypt, succeeded in his campaign, and installed a puppet king.

Then he withdrew - but the kingdom reverted to the rule of the Ptolemaic Egyptian kings after his withdrawal, so in 168 B.C Antiochus IV attacked Egypt again, but this time he was forced to withdraw because the Roman republic, allied to Egypt, threatened him with war with Rome if he did not, and Rome had a powerful navy at its disposal.

Gaius Popillius Laenas, Roman ambassador, drew a circle around Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 168 B.C and told him to consider himself at war with Rome if he steps out of the circle before giving the ambassador a reply as to whether or not he would withdraw from Egypt. (Painting by Louis-Jean-François Lagrenée).

This is recorded in Daniel 11:29-30, and this is the only place in Daniel's prophecies aside from Daniel 9:26 that Rome is mentioned.

In 167 BC, Antiochus IV ordered an altar to Zeus, "the king of the gods" erected in the temple in Jerusalem, and compelled Jews to dissolve the laws of Judea, to keep their infants un-circumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar (see Daniel 8:11-14; Daniel 11:31 and Daniel 12:11) - but he did not stop there:

He also placed an image of Zeus in the holy place of the temple in Jerusalem - the "abomination of desolation in the holy place" - but he did not stop there:

He identified himself with Zeus.​
The last day of the 69th week is the same as "after" the 69th week. In the linear context of Dan. 9:25-27 it shows that after Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week, 70 ad happens and some time after that, the full 70th will begin w/ the a/c called the "prince to come". There are no prophecies concerning the duration of Christ's ministry. The prophecy about "His coming" is in Zech. 9:9 - "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." This was at the 'end" of his ministry just a few short days before his crucifixion. The 70th week never began.
 

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,843
1,964
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The 70th week was never subtracted, it was suspended because Israel failed to accomplish the goals of Dan. 9:24. The 6 things were "not" for Christ to fulfill but Israel, however, Christ laid the foundation for when, in the fullness of time, Israel will complete them. To put them in the proper context one should read Dan. 9:24 like this: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the (national) transgression, and to make an end of (national) sins, and to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Israel will accomplish the final three after Armageddon when they escort Christ into Jerusalem (after Armageddon), which will complete the visions and prophecies of the church age and then anoint Christ as King and Messiah of Israel.
There is no support for your interpretation in historical Christian true orthodoxy.

Every recognized pre-19th-century defender of the true faith who exegeted Daniel 9:24 agrees that it was fulfilled in and by Christ.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,235
1,260
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
after Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week
There is absolutely nothing either in the text or in the context that says that Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week. There is absolutely nothing that should cause us to use a magic mouse to cut the final week out of its historically fulfilled place in the first century and paste it into a favorite folder titled "the end of the age and the return of Christ.". The text and context both make the 70 weeks contiguous.

The text also says very clearly that after (Hebrew achar, which always means after) the 69th week, Messiah would be cut off. The Messiah is the only person mentioned in Daniel 9:24-25, so the chief subject of the entire 70 weeks prophecy is the Messiah.

If you have the Messiah cut off during the 69th week or even at the close of it, then you have it out of synch with the actual year in which the 69th week ended (way too early - which both history and the late Christian Gedge's book "The Atonement Clock" clearly shows, which provides the start and end dates for each of the four contiguous 490-year cycles that unfolded during Israel's history, which are contained in the shmita cycles).

But if Christians don't add to the text using their imagination then we don't even need history - because the text and context both place the 70th week in the 1st century A.D:

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks (meaning "weeks of years", or 70 x 7 years) are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Verse 25 is speaking about the amount of time that must pass until the Messiah comes.

Daniel 9:26 "And AFTER (Hebrew achar) sixty-two weeks (after the sixty-two weeks which followed the first seven) Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.

And the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war."

Subject: The coming of the Messiah.
Timing: 70 weeks from a certain point in time.
Purpose: To make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Determined upon: Thy people and thy holy city.

Subject of verse 24: The Messiah.
Subject of verse 25: The Messiah.
Subject of verses 26-27: (a) The Messiah; and (b) the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

The idea that "the Antrichrist" will cut a covenant "with Israel" is a lie, and NOTHING in the text suggests it. It rose up in the imagination of people like Tim La Haye and those who follow Dispensationalism (which is a false doctrine with regard to Israel).

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31).

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm a covenant with MANY for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading wings (Hebrew: kanaph) of abominations he shall make it (the city and the sanctuary) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27).

CAUSING SACRIFICE AND OFFERING TO CEASE

Isaiah 1:11-17
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.

Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly! Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them.

Hebrews 10:8-10
"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

"..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27b).

Jesus fulfilled it all:-

"Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city,

1. to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and

2. to make atonement for iniquity, and

3. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and

4. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy." (Daniel 9:24).

The following is the only thing that the prophet told us was going to fulfilled regarding (a) the coming of the Messiah; and (b) the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. Anything else stems from human imagination adding to the Word of God and thereby corrupting the intended meaning, IMO.

The Messiah:

Daniel 9
26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

City & Sanctuary:


26 And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Compare the above with Jesus' words when standing in the temple, 40 years before the city and the temple were destroyed by Roman armies.

The abominations (plural) consisted in the continued sacrifices that had become and abomination to God.​
 
Last edited:

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is no support for your interpretation in historical Christian true orthodoxy.

Every recognized pre-19th-century defender of the true faith who exegeted Daniel 9:24 agrees that it was fulfilled in and by Christ.
The church of the latter days will have more knowledge of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. What older generations thought really isn't noteworthy. Most of them, if they were honest w/ themselves, if they knew 1948 was going to happen would change their minds.
 

Trekson

Well-Known Member
Jul 24, 2012
2,084
218
63
68
Kentucky
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
There is absolutely nothing either in the text or in the context that says that Messiah was cut off at the end of the 69th week. There is absolutely nothing that should cause us to use a magic mouse to cut the final week out of its historically fulfilled place in the first century and paste it into a favorite folder titled "the end of the age and the return of Christ.". The text and context both make the 70 weeks contiguous.

The text also says very clearly that after (Hebrew achar, which always means after) the 69th week, Messiah would be cut off. The Messiah is the only person mentioned in Daniel 9:24-25, so the chief subject of the entire 70 weeks prophecy is the Messiah.

If you have the Messiah cut off during the 69th week or even at the close of it, then you have it out of synch with the actual year in which the 69th week ended (way too early - which both history and the late Christian Gedge's book "The Atonement Clock" clearly shows, which provides the start and end dates for each of the four contiguous 490-year cycles that unfolded during Israel's history, which are contained in the shmita cycles).

But if Christians don't add to the text using their imagination then we don't even need history - because the text and context both place the 70th week in the 1st century A.D:

Daniel 9:24
Seventy weeks (meaning "weeks of years", or 70 x 7 years) are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and to make atonement for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy.

Verse 25 is speaking about the amount of time that must pass until the Messiah comes.

Daniel 9:26 "And AFTER (Hebrew achar) sixty-two weeks (after the sixty-two weeks which followed the first seven) Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.

And the people of the prince who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war."

Subject: The coming of the Messiah.
Timing: 70 weeks from a certain point in time.
Purpose: To make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Determined upon: Thy people and thy holy city.

Subject of verse 24: The Messiah.
Subject of verse 25: The Messiah.
Subject of verses 26-27: (a) The Messiah; and (b) the destruction of the city and the sanctuary.

The idea that "the Antrichrist" will cut a covenant "with Israel" is a lie, and NOTHING in the text suggests it. It rose up in the imagination of people like Tim La Haye and those who follow Dispensationalism (which is a false doctrine with regard to Israel).

"Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah" (Jeremiah 31:31).

"For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for MANY for the remission of sins." (Matthew 26:28).

Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm a covenant with MANY for one week. And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease, and for the overspreading wings (Hebrew: kanaph) of abominations he shall make it (the city and the sanctuary) desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27).

CAUSING SACRIFICE AND OFFERING TO CEASE

Isaiah 1:11-17
"To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? says the LORD; I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.

Bring no more vain sacrifice; incense is an abomination to Me; the new moon and sabbath, the going to meeting; I cannot endure evil and the assembly! Your new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates; they are a trouble to Me; I am weary to bear them.

Hebrews 10:8-10
"Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."

"..and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27b).

Jesus fulfilled it all:-

"Seventy weeks are decreed as to your people and as to your holy city,

1. to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins, and

2. to make atonement for iniquity, and

3. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and

4. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy." (Daniel 9:24).

The following is the only thing that the prophet told us was going to fulfilled regarding (a) the coming of the Messiah; and (b) the destruction of the city and the sanctuary. Anything else stems from human imagination adding to the Word of God and thereby corrupting the intended meaning, IMO.

The Messiah:

Daniel 9
26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

City & Sanctuary:


26 And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Compare the above with Jesus' words when standing in the temple, 40 years before the city and the temple were destroyed by Roman armies.

The abominations (plural) consisted in the continued sacrifices that had become and abomination to God.​
Sorry, but, imo, historicism/preterism is about as far away from the truth as one can get!
 

ScottA

Well-Known Member
Feb 24, 2011
11,832
5,635
113
www.CheeseburgersWithGod.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Now we know this is speaking of the final beast kingdom of the future a/c as depicted in Rev. 13 because Christ has yet to set up his earthly kingdom that will consist of Israel as the leading nation of the world in the millennium.

Your above hypothesis is against Christ's own claim and rule beginning 2,000 years ago, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth."

The actual fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy is below, not after a "gap", but as Jesus said, "has been given" (past tense). After which the nations have not experienced a "gap", but have been held in "derision." Here is the fulfillment of the kingdom of "iron and clay", and the prophecy fulfilled in Christ since that time--read the whole psalm:

Psalm 2​
Why do the nations rage,
And the people plot a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves,
And the rulers take counsel together,
Against the Lord and against His Anointed, saying,
3 “Let us break Their bonds in pieces
And cast away Their cords from us.”
4 He who sits in the heavens shall laugh;
The Lord shall hold them in derision.
5 Then He shall speak to them in His wrath,
And distress them in His deep displeasure:
6 “Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion.”
7 “I will declare the decree:
The Lord has said to Me,
‘You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8 Ask of Me, and I will give You
The nations for Your inheritance,
And the ends of the earth for Your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron;
You shall dash them to pieces like a potter’s vessel.’
10 Now therefore, be wise, O kings;
Be instructed, you judges of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
And rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry,
And you perish in the way,
When His wrath is kindled but a little.
Blessed are all those who put their trust in Him.​
 
Last edited:

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,843
1,964
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The church of the latter days will have more knowledge of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. What older generations thought really isn't noteworthy. Most of them, if they were honest w/ themselves, if they knew 1948 was going to happen would change their minds.
No cult would have said it differently.

What to believe?
Two centuries of modernist cultic dispensational delusion and deception
or
Seventeen centuries of unanimous declaration of Christ as the theme and fulfillment of Daniel 9:24 by recognized defenders of the True Faith

Who needs a hint?
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,974
2,507
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The 70th week was never subtracted, it was suspended because Israel failed to accomplish the goals of Dan. 9:24. The 6 things were "not" for Christ to fulfill but Israel, however, Christ laid the foundation for when, in the fullness of time, Israel will complete them.
To "suspend" a "Week" and to "subtract" a "Week" is, for me, the same thing--that's what I meant. To delay the Week's fulfillment is to separate it from the period of time Daniel indicated Israel was to wait. They were to wait not 483 years plus centuries and centuries, but only 490 years, or 486.5 years (half of the final "Week").

We disagree on the 6 things which I believe Christ was to fulfill at his earthly coming (Dan 9.24).
To put them in the proper context one should read Dan. 9:24 like this: "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the (national) transgression, and to make an end of (national) sins, and to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." Israel will accomplish the final three after Armageddon when they escort Christ into Jerusalem (after Armageddon), which will complete the visions and prophecies of the church age and then anoint Christ as King and Messiah of Israel.
Yes, we disagree on how to interpret these 6 things. I believe Christ fulfilled them all at his earthly coming. Israel's sin reached its apex, and was finally dealt with, both at the Cross and in 70 AD following.

Israel was brought to the place of either submitting to Christ or suffering comprehensive national judgment. Atonement was made for an eventual national restoration however.

Messianic prophecy concerning this *legal salvation* was completely fulfilled at the cross. Christ became the source of Israel's eternal righteousness.
To understand the reference to "the people of the prince to come" one must realize that the word "prince" is "not" speaking of Titus but of the a/c as shown in vs. 27.
The Antichrist is not, in my opinion, in this passage (Dan 9.27) at all. The Roman leadership is in reference throughout, from the 4th Kingdom of Dan 2 to the 4th Kingdom of Dan 7. Here, in Dan 9, it is viewed as having a "people," or Army, that will destroy the "city and the sanctuary."
Let's do a quick outline of the various prophecies. Dan. 2 had "five" empires starting w/ Babylon and ending with the final kingdom of the ten toes.
Dan 2, in my view, had 4 empires. Medo-Persia is viewed as a single empire.
Dan. 7 had "four" empires starting w/ the second of the statue...
We already disagreed on this. My view begins at the same place Nebuchadnezzar's Dream did, ie with the Babylonian Empire. Though by the time of Daniel's Dream the Babylonian Empire was reaching its latter stages, the idea was, I think, to reproduce the blueprint of imperial development from the Babylonian Empire in Daniel's time to the Roman Empire in the last days, which is the NT era.
and ending w/ the ten horn kingdom which is reflected to the 10 horned beast of Rev. 13. Dan. 8 has "three" empires, Meda-Persia, Greece and then the little horn which goes back to the 10 horned beast and the ten toes of the statue. Daniel 8 totally ignores Rome because despite what many historicists think, in God's eyes, it wasn't that big of a deal.
The fact Dan 8 deals with only three empires only indicates that Daniel is moving on to describe empires beyond his present time. It is not a re-ordering of the 4 empires mentioned in Dan 2 and Dan 7.
These last metaphors are what the prophecies are highlighting. Very few scholars, if any, agree w/ my position but I believe the prophecy of Dan. 12:4 regarding that "knowledge will increase" includes both secular knowledge and prophetic knowledge. I think the last paragraph of my post explains how Dan. 9:27 and 11:22-23 connect quite nicely and refer to the kingdom of the a/c.
I view Dan 9. 27 as addressing the Roman Empire as the "Abomination of Desolation," which Jesus referred to in his Olivest Discourse. It is very, very clear in Luke 21 that Jesus was describing the Roman desolation of Jerusalem, and the destruction of the temple, in 70 AD.

Dan 8 and Dan 11 both cover the activities of Antiochus 4. The last part of Dan 12 does, as well--the 1290 days. Dan 7 is the primary vision for the endtimes, including the 3.5 years of Antichrist's reign.
 
  • Like
Reactions: covenantee

covenantee

Well-Known Member
Feb 22, 2022
4,843
1,964
113
73
Canada
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
The last day of the 69th week is the same as "after" the 69th week. In the linear context of Dan. 9:25-27 it shows that after Messiah is cut off at the end of the 69th week, 70 ad happens and some time after that, the full 70th will begin w/ the a/c called the "prince to come". There are no prophecies concerning the duration of Christ's ministry. The prophecy about "His coming" is in Zech. 9:9 - "Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy King cometh unto thee: he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, and upon a colt the foal of an ass." This was at the 'end" of his ministry just a few short days before his crucifixion. The 70th week never began.
There is no "a/c" in Daniel 9:25-27. That is modernist cultic dispensational fantasy and fallacy.

Dispensationalism's future antichrist is a product of the counter-reformation's fabrication by the 16th-century apostate papacy which was attempting to defeat the Protestant Reformation. It failed.

The word "antichrist" does not exist in OT Hebrew or Aramaic.

There is only one Individual identified as a Prince in the Daniel passage.

He is Messiah the Prince. Daniel 9:25

Cut off on the cross in the midst of the 70th week. Daniel 9:26,27
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Earburner and rwb

dismas

Member
Jul 10, 2011
77
6
8
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For futurists, the final kingdom spoken of by Daniel is the one that is most important to us today. When read in the context given, it demolishes the false eschatology (or lack thereof) of preterism. It speaks of a kingdom that will rise at an “unknown period of time”, “after” Rome. This unknown period of time is also known as the “gap” between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week per Dan. 9:24-27. This “gap” is refuted by many, imo, because of their lack of faith in God’s prophetic word and that lack of faith, imo, has blinded them to the truth given in the whole of prophecy combined. They fail to see the whole and try to divide the prophecies into little digestible pieces to try and prove that everything has been fulfilled already but, imo, they fail miserably.

This final kingdom is first mentioned in Dan. 2:33b-34 - “…his feet part of iron and part of clay. 34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.” It’s further described in vss. 41-43 - “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.” The part, however, that is important to us is in vs. 44 - “And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.”

Now we know this is speaking of the final beast kingdom of the future a/c as depicted in Rev. 13 because Christ has yet to set up his earthly kingdom that will consist of Israel as the leading nation of the world in the millennium. The next time we see this final kingdom of Daniel is in Dan. 7. Contrary to popular opinion the beasts of Dan. 7 begins w/ Meda-Persia. Babylon is not mentioned here because at this time it’s reign is close to the end and the prophecy focuses on the kingdoms that “shall arise” after Babylon, Dan. 7:17. Many preterists mistakenly believe the 4th beast is Rome because it mentions the word “iron” but that is not the main focal point of the description given. The main focal point is the “ten horns” which connects it to the ten toes of Dan. 2. Dan. 7:7-8, 11 - “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.” 11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.This description of the head of the final kingdom is given in future prophecies. Notice Daniel “considered the “horns” and “not” the iron teeth. Also notice that in the verses following its description and destruction (9-10, 12-14) it speaks again of a future earthly kingdom in vs. 14 which we know is the physical millennial kingdom of Christ.

The little horn of Dan. 7:8 is mentioned again using a different metaphor in Dan. 8:9-12. His end is foretold in Dan. 8:23-25 - “And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. 24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.” This again speaks of his final time that Christ will destroy upon his second advent.

The disputed “gap” period is also plainly in the linear context of Dan. 9:24-27. There are three events listed, 1. Messiah will be cut off, (which ends the 69th week) followed by, 2. the destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary (70ad) which is followed by an “unknown period of time after it” 3. the start of the 70th week by an agreement with “many” of Israel. (covenant, but not a religious one). How people can read this and believe it is speaking of Christ is beyond me and not the future leader of the “final kingdom” of Daniel is beyond me.

Daniel is again given a vision in Dan. 10:8 and the explanation of it begins in cp. 11. The last king mentioned in Daniel begins at verse 21 and, imo, this speaking of the a/c. As I was doing this study God opened my eyes to something I had read probably a hundred times or more and I’ve never seen this point brought up before. One of the definitions of the word “covenant” is the word “league”. In Dan. 11:23 it says, “And after the league made with him he shall work deceitfully: for he shall come up, and shall become strong with a small people.” I believe this is speaking of the covenant spoken of in Dan. 9:27 which should put to rest the idea that it is Christ spoken of in vss. 27. Dan. 11:22, imo, confirms this, “And with the arms of a flood shall they be overflown from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the prince of the covenant.

Who is the prince of the covenant? I believe Dan. 9:26-27 tells us that it is “the prince to come” who is the one who that confirms a covenant (league) for 7 yrs. And this should be proof that it is “not” Christ that is being spoken of here. Many of these prophecies are confirmed to be still future in the Revelation of Christ given to John and in some of Paul’s writings in Thessalonians, you know the ones, Rev. 13 and 17;7, 12. These describe who we call the a/c in many cases using the same type wording as Daniel does.

If you are going to connect Dan 11:23 with Dan 9:27 (which you should), and you connect Dan 11:22 with Dan 11:23 (which again, you should), then you should connect Dan 11:22's 'flood' with Dan 9:26's 'flood'.

You immediately jump to the conclusion that Dan 9:26 is talking about 70ad (because that is what people are told to believe) when in fact, it is part of the Revelation narrative. The 'locusts' are the 'flood of forces'. The 6th Trumpet killing of a third of mankind is the 'great tribulation' that Jesus is talking about in the Olivet discourse. THEN the false christ arrives to make the covenant (after this 'great tribulation').

new%20graph%202%20abominations%20versionrev12.jpg
 

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
12,127
2,579
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I agree w/ you and the ten toes weren't left out they were connected to the 10 horned beast of Dan. 7. I affirm that the ten toes, ten horned beast and the little horn all reference the final a/c kingdom hence the title of this post. But it's not about a one world government, king or religion. It's about the ten nation a/c confederacy that the a/c will form that will include Israel and Jerusalem as his capitol in a false fulfillment as the "messiah" in his "attempt" to deceive the world but it will only be partially successful.
Well, we agree on the final beast of ten toes of iron mixed with clay, but I don't think you understand about their "one world government" idea.

The "little horn" prophecy involves the ten horns (ten kings), with the "little horn" coming up in power among the ten, and then subduing 3 of the 10, right?

Every heard of the Tri-Lateral Commission which Rockefeller put ex-President Jimmy Carter and Zbigniew Brzezinski over? It was designed for plans to divide the earth into 3 main regions, the EU as one part, a proposed American Union as another, and a Pacific-Asian union as the third part.

What I see for the coming finalized "one world government" is a 7-continent region of 7 rulers over the earth, with a Tri-parte 3 ruler division above the 7 over 3 earth's zones, with the Antichrist at the top, all forming a type pyramid ruling structure.
 

Zao is life

Well-Known Member
Oct 3, 2020
3,235
1,260
113
Africa
zaoislife.blogspot.com
Faith
Christian
Country
South Africa
Sorry, but, imo, historicism/preterism is about as far away from the truth as one can get!
It's okay. The 70th week that you are still waiting for is going to confuse you when the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast comes upon us all suddenly 3.5 years before the return of Christ.

It's sad that so many Christians are waiting for the start of the 70th week of Daniel that began 3.5 years before the crucifixion of Messiah in the 1st century, but anyway, nothing much we can do to change it.​
 

Randy Kluth

Well-Known Member
Apr 27, 2020
7,974
2,507
113
Pacific NW
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If you are going to connect Dan 11:23 with Dan 9:27 (which you should), and you connect Dan 11:22 with Dan 11:23 (which again, you should), then you should connect Dan 11:22's 'flood' with Dan 9:26's 'flood'.

You immediately jump to the conclusion that Dan 9:26 is talking about 70ad (because that is what people are told to believe)...
You can believe what you want, but stating that Dan 9.26 is not about 70 AD and that people believe that because "they are told to" is absurd. This is a very common way that scholars independently viewed this because in the passage we are told that the "people of the ruler to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary." That happened in 70 AD. Nobody has to tell me that is so. History tells us that.

And I don't believe that Dan 9.27 "should" connect with Dan 11.22. In my view, and many scholars concur, Dan 9 is about the earthly coming of Christ and the destruction of Jerusalem that followed (70 AD). And Dan 11 ends with a description of Antiochus 4, as he vents his wrath upon the Jewish People for not cooperating with his attempt to foist Hellenism upon them.

It's okay that we agree. I just don't particularly like your sense that this *should* be such, and that a variant view is necessarily corrupted by human persuasion. Such a thing could be said about your view, or about any view you happen to disagree with. The important thing is that something is not so novel that it doesn't belong in the discussion.
 
Last edited:

Davy

Well-Known Member
Feb 11, 2018
12,127
2,579
113
Southeastern U.S.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
It's okay. The 70th week that you are still waiting for is going to confuse you when the great tribulation of the saints at the hand of the beast comes upon us all suddenly 3.5 years before the return of Christ.

It's sad that so many Christians are waiting for the start of the 70th week of Daniel that began 3.5 years before the crucifixion of Messiah in the 1st century, but anyway, nothing much we can do to change it.​
Well, I don't think he will be surprised, because it is very accurate that symbolic "one week" of Daniel 9:27, i.e., the 70th week, is still... in the future today.

Daniel 9:27 "one week" = 7 years
7 years is divided into 2 parts, 1260 days each (also written as 3.5 years, or 42 months)

Jesus quoted from Daniel about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" event linked with the time of the "great tribulation" at the end of this world (Matthew 24:15).

The "abomination of desolation" event is also mentioned in the Daniel 8 Scripture involving the "little horn" for the END.

Dan 8:9-13
9 And out of one of them came forth
a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host,
and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

12 And
an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be
the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
KJV

That in red is about the "abomination of desolation" of Daniel 11:31 which Jesus quoted about 200 years after... Antiochus had already been dead. The "league" of Daniel 11:21-23 the "vile person" will make is that "covenant" of Daniel 9:27, and it involves the re-establishing of the old covenant sacrifices and temple for the end of this world.

The "little horn" prophecy in Daniel 7 & 8 is about the final Antichrist at the END of this world. So that's 2 Bible Scripture proofs, Daniel 8 and Matthew 24:15, that reveals the "abomination of desolation" prophecy is about the END of this world, and thus makes the Daniel 9:27 Scripture about the END also.