The Last and Final Evil Kingdom of Daniel

[Trekson]

There is only one Individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9:24-27.

He is Messiah the Prince. Daniel 9:25

Via grammatical antecedents/referents, the prince in Daniel 9:26 is Messiah the Prince.

Via grammatical antecedents/referents, "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Messiah the Prince.

Savior confirming the New Covenant at Calvary, and Judge at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Sorry but the "people" of the "prince" to come" if one believes that is Christ, were "not" the ones that destroyed the city and the sanctuary and as the article stated the "prince of the covenant" as shown in Dan. 11:22-23 is also most assuredly "not" speaking of Christ. Dan. 9:24-27 is "not" a messianic prophecy even though his crucifixion is mentioned as "one" of the dividing point between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th. There is simply no accuracy to this pov. Covenant is just a word that means a pact or a treaty or a league. It does not have a strictly religious value.

 

[Trekson]

G3485 Naos completely stopped being used in reference to the inner sanctuary of the physical temple in Jerusalem when the veil was torn.

After that it is ONLY USED in reference to the tabernacle of God/Christ (whenever the word is used in reference to God's Temple).

Those who argue this FACT merely betray the fact that while they claim to believe Jesus and His apostles, they do not fully believe either Jesus or His apostles:

John 4
21 Jesus said to her, Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you shall neither worship the Father in this mountain nor yet at Jerusalem.
22 You worship what you do not know, we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews.
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father seeks such to worship Him.
24 God is a spirit, and they who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth.
25 The woman said to Him, I know that Messiah is coming, who is called Christ. When He has come, He will tell us all things.
26 Jesus said to her, I AM, He speaking to you.

Acts 7
46 David found favor with God and desired to find a tabernacle for the God of Jacob;
47 but Solomon built Him a house.
48 But, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says,
49 "Heaven is My throne and earth is My footstool. What house will you build Me, says the Lord, or what is the place of My rest?
50 Has not My hand made all these things?"

1 Peter
5 you also as living stones are built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 Therefore also it is contained in the Scripture: "Behold, I lay in Zion a chief corner Stone, elect, precious, and he who believes on Him shall never be ashamed."
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Man erecting a building on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem and calling it "the Temple of God" is no more the Temple of God than a Hindu Temple in India if God does not call it "My Temple", no matter how big and magnificent such a building may be.

Hence whatever idol appears in such a building in Jerusalem is no more or less of an abomination to God than an idol in a Hindu temple in India.

The naos (sanctuary of God) is where the Holy Spirit dwells. On earth it's Christ's church. Only an idol placed in God's Temple is both biblically and in reality, an abomination in the sight of God.​

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I'm not seeking for anyone to believe me when I repeat what Jesus and His apostles taught us so very clearly. I'm seeking for all to believe Jesus, as well as His apostles.​

Sorry, but of the last 29 uses of the world temple from 1 Co.- Rev, only once does it use G2411. A temple is just a building there is no holiness or sacredness to it w/o God's presence. Israel may call an area of a temple, a sanctuary and to them it would be, but that too is only a word. Yes, it would still be an AoD because this future temple, holy or not, will be built to supposedly honor the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he still loves Israel. It is this breaking of the 2nd commandment by the a/c, (Rev. 13:14-15) who they will believe to be the messiah, that will be the catalyst, imo, to opening the eyes of many of the nation of Israel who will then reject the a/c turn to Christ (the believing woman) and flee as Rev. 12:14 shows.

 

[Earburner]

There is only one Individual identified as a prince in Daniel 9:24-27.

He is Messiah the Prince. Daniel 9:25

Via grammatical antecedents/referents, the prince in Daniel 9:26 is Messiah the Prince.

Via grammatical antecedents/referents, "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Messiah the Prince.

Savior confirming the New Covenant at Calvary, and Judge at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

Amen!! I agree 100%
Most of "church-ianity" is confused over the 70 weeks, and what is being said, due to all the spurious new Bible translations.
If one does not study the KJV, they will be led into extreme confusion.

In reference to my post #76, here are the details of the 70 weeks:
There are two separate prophecies of God in vs. 26-27.
One is about Jesus in His crucifixion and the other is about Titus in 70AD.

KJV Dan. 9[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people [Roman soldiers] of the prince [Titus] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[27] And HE [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many FOR ONE WEEK**: and in the midst of the [70th] week HE shall  CAUSE the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make it desolate [void of God], even until the consummation, and that DETERMINED [verse 24] shall be POURED [out] upon the desolate [those who are void of God].
Acts 10
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also WAS POURED OUT the gift of the Holy Ghost [upon those who are void of God].

The death and resurrection of Jesus ENDS the requirement of all the temple services, being that of the oblation and animal sacrifices to cease.
** Note: Jesus Himself IS THE fulfillment of the 70th week.

Q. So then, during the 70 weeks, WHAT six works of God were determined by God in Dan. 9 verse 24?
A. [24] Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
1. to finish the transgression, and
2. to make an end of sins, and
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
5. to seal up the vision and prophecy, and
6. to anoint the most Holy.

Jesus, in His first manifestation, "FINISHED" all of the works that God gave for Him to do.

 

[Zao is life]

Sorry, but of the last 29 uses of the world temple from 1 Co.- Rev, only once does it use G2411. A temple is just a building there is no holiness or sacredness to it w/o God's presence. Israel may call an area of a temple, a sanctuary and to them it would be, but that too is only a word. Yes, it would still be an AoD because this future temple, holy or not, will be built to supposedly honor the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and he still loves Israel. It is this breaking of the 2nd commandment by the a/c, (Rev. 13:14-15) who they will believe to be the messiah, that will be the catalyst, imo, to opening the eyes of many of the nation of Israel who will then reject the a/c turn to Christ (the believing woman) and flee as Rev. 12:14 shows.

Sorry, but you have just confirmed everything I've said:

The fact is that the New Testament only uses the the word G2411 hieron in every reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the tearing of the veil (except only where the Jews accused Paul of defiling "this holy place", where the words "hagios topos" [holy place] are used in the Greek),

and the fact that G3485 naos which refers to God's sanctuary is never used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the tearing of the veil, but only to the church/es,

shows that the G3485 naos that the man of sin will seat himself up in is NOT referring to any temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thes 2:4 does not speak about a G3485 naos (sanctuary of God) inside a G2411 (temple in Jerusalem). It speaks only about the man of sin seating himself up in he G3485 naos (sanctuary of God).

Look before you leap and read before you speak.

 

[Zao is life]

There are two separate prophecies of God in vs. 26-27.
One is about Jesus in His crucifixion and the other is about Titus in 70AD.

Dan. 9[26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
and the people [Roman soldiers] of the prince [Titus] that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

[27] And HE [Jesus] shall confirm the [New] covenant with many FOR ONE WEEK**: and in the midst of the [70th] week HE shall  CAUSE the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations HE shall make it desolate [void of God], even until the consummation, and that DETERMINED [verse 24] shall be POURED [out] upon the desolate [those who are void of God].
Acts 10
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also WAS POURED OUT the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The death and resurrection of Jesus ENDS the requirement of the temple services, being that of the oblation and animal sacrifices to cease.
** Note: Jesus Himself IS THE fulfillment of the 70th week.

Info: @covenantee

This is so easy to understand.

The Messiah:

26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

City & Sanctuary:

26 And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Isaiah for example (and all the prophets) are full of examples where two different entities or subjects are mixed together into two (or more) of the same verses. Here's another example of MANY examples:

Hosea 1:11
(A) Then the sons of Judah and the sons of Israel shall be gathered together, and shall set over themselves one head

(B) and they shall come up out of the land. For great shall be the day of Jezreel.

The main subject of the above prophecy is the coming judgment of the Northern kingdom of Israel in the Valley of Jezreel and the subject was introduced a few verses earlier. But verse 11 is also talking about the fact that the two kingdoms would become one again at a time that was still way into the future - so the two subjects are mixed into one verse.

In Daniel 9, the timing for the coming of the Messiah is the subject that was introduced in Daniel 9:24-25, so the chief subject of the entire 70 weeks prophecy is the Messiah.

Note: If the chief subject in the prophecy was about both the Messiah AND the people of the prince who was to come [mentioned in verse 26], the latter would also have got a mention in the beginning, in verses 24-25 (which he does not).

But the information given in verses 24-25 is interconnected with the information about the leader of the people who would destroy the city and the sanctuary, so the information is added in verses 26-27:

The Messiah:

26 And after sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself.
27 And he (Messiah) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. And in the midst of the week he (Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease.

City & Sanctuary:

26 And the people of the ruler who shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. And the end of it shall be with the flood, and ruins are determined, until the end shall be war.
27 and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

@covenantee Jesus neither destroyed His own body (the temple) nor the temple in Jerusalem. The Romans did both.

 

[Zao is life]

My Strong's has G2411 as the temple as a whole and G3485 as the inner sanctuary only, so Paul is speaking of the inner sanctuary of a physical temple in 2 Thess. 2:4.

2 Thes 2:4 does not speak about a G3485 naos inside a G2411 temple in Jerusalem. It speaks only about the G3485 naos being the temple that the man of sin will seat himself up in.

 

[Earburner]

With all due respect, this couldn't be more wrong. Christ is not spoken of again, "after" he is "cut off

With all due respect also, what is extremely wrong, is the garbage of the modern day translations about the 70 weeks, and then the fabricated lies through "the wisdom of men", that are being expounded upon from the pulpits of "church-ianity". 1 Cor. 2:5.
Please see my post #83 for the correct understanding.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, but you have just confirmed everything I've said:

The fact is that the New Testament only uses the the word G2411 hieron in every reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the tearing of the veil (except only where the Jews accused Paul of defiling "this holy place", where the words "hagios topos" [holy place] are used in the Greek),

and the fact that G3485 naos which refers to God's sanctuary is never used in reference to the temple in Jerusalem after the tearing of the veil, but only to the church/es,

shows that the G3485 naos that the man of sin will seat himself up in is NOT referring to any temple in Jerusalem.

2 Thes 2:4 does not speak about a G3485 naos (sanctuary of God) inside a G2411 (temple in Jerusalem). It speaks only about the man of sin seating himself up in he G3485 naos (sanctuary of God).

Look before you leap and read before you speak.

Use of the word temple implies the sanctuary is inside of it and your facts aren't correct after the tearing of the veil. Both words are used before and after.

 

[Trekson]

With all due respect also, what is extremely wrong, is the garbage of the modern day translations about the 70 weeks, and then the fabricated lies through "the wisdom of men", that are being expounded upon from the pulpits of "church-ianity". 1 Cor. 2:5.
Please see my post #83 for the correct understanding.

Titus is "not" the prince of vs. 26. The "people of the prince" weren't Romans. They were conscripted soldiers from the nations surrounding Israel as Rome didn't want to waste their men on a relatively small skirmish, only the leaders were Romans.

 

[Earburner]

Titus is "not" the prince of vs. 26. The "people of the prince" weren't Romans. They were conscripted soldiers from the nations surrounding Israel as Rome didn't want to waste their men on a relatively small skirmish, only the leaders were Romans.

I think that you are lacking in the history of 70AD, through the eyewitness account of 70AD, by Flavius Josephus, concerning the Roman Commanders Vespasian and Titus.

The point of the 70 weeks is not about Titus and his "people", but rather JESUS.
SEE verse 24 and understand what was "determined" by God for Jesus to do, of which He did "finish" on the cross.

Get beyond the foolishness that "church-ianity" has been fabricating and promoting, through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

 

[covenantee]

Jesus neither destroyed His own body (the temple) nor the temple in Jerusalem. The Romans did both.

Bro, you are correct that the Romans carried out the destruction. But they were under the ultimate command and control of Messiah the Prince, serving as His people/agents of judgment and destruction upon the nation that had rejected Him. The Roman prince Titus who led the Roman armies attributed his success to Divine Intervention.

Grammatically, the antecedent/referent of "prince" in Daniel 9:26 is "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25, thus reinforcing the Scriptural/historical evidence.

 

[covenantee]

Sorry but the "people" of the "prince" to come" if one believes that is Christ, were "not" the ones that destroyed the city and the sanctuary and as the article stated the "prince of the covenant" as shown in Dan. 11:22-23 is also most assuredly "not" speaking of Christ. Dan. 9:24-27 is "not" a messianic prophecy even though his crucifixion is mentioned as "one" of the dividing point between the end of the 69th week and the beginning of the 70th. There is simply no accuracy to this pov. Covenant is just a word that means a pact or a treaty or a league. It does not have a strictly religious value.

You're ignoring grammar, Scripture, and history.

See post 91.

Daniel 11:22-23 refers to events during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It does not refer to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 9.

 

[Earburner]

You're ignoring grammar, Scripture, and history.

See post 91.

Daniel 11:22-23 refers to events during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It does not refer to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 9.

I might add that the historical account by the Jews, about Antiochus Epiphanes lV and Judas Maccabeus is accurately recorded in 1 Maccabees chs. 1-4.
Antiochus E. was the desolator of the Jewish temple, and Judas M. was the restorer of the same. All of that prophecy in Daniel (523BC) was fulfilled before 164BC, being the year that Antiochus Epiphanes died.
Today, the Jews celebrate it as "Hanukkah".

In "typology" Jesus used all of that fulfilled prophecy to POINT TO HIMSELF.
John 2
[19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
[20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
[21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
[22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

Antiochus IV Epiphanes - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Zao is life]

Use of the word temple implies the sanctuary is inside of it and your facts aren't correct after the tearing of the veil. Both words are used before and after.

Every time the word naos is used after the tearing of the veil it's referring to the sanctuary of the church or the Temple in heaven. Not one verse after the tearing of the veil using the word naos is talking about the Jerusalem temple.

My facts are correct and it's noticeable how you fail to provide verses using the word naos after the tearing of the veil that are referring to the Jerusalem Temple.

You need to back up your arguments with scripture references of passages referring to the Jerusalem temple that use the word naos, and which were written at a time after the veil in the Temple was torn - because until now all you have been doing is showing your own willful ignorance of the facts.

 

[Zao is life]

Bro, you are correct that the Romans carried out the destruction. But they were under the ultimate command and control of Messiah the Prince, serving as His people/agents of judgment and destruction upon the nation that had rejected Him. The Roman prince Titus who led the Roman armies attributed his success to Divine Intervention.

Grammatically, the antecedent/referent of "prince" in Daniel 9:26 is "Messiah the Prince" in Daniel 9:25, thus reinforcing the Scriptural/historical evidence.

I disagree. It's not 'antecedent'. It's just the same word. It basically means ruler or commander but can be used for different ranks. It's not referring to the same person in each case just because it's the same word, IMO.

 

[Zao is life]

Titus is "not" the prince of vs. 26. The "people of the prince" weren't Romans. They were conscripted soldiers from the nations surrounding Israel as Rome didn't want to waste their men on a relatively small skirmish, only the leaders were Romans.

They were fighting for Rome. It wasn't some Chinese dynasty they were fighting for. Moot point.

 

[Trekson]

I think that you are lacking in the history of 70AD, through the eyewitness account of 70AD, by Flavius Josephus, concerning the Roman Commanders Vespasian and Titus.

The point of the 70 weeks is not about Titus and his "people", but rather JESUS.
SEE verse 24 and understand what was "determined" by God for Jesus to do, of which He did "finish" on the cross.

Get beyond the foolishness that "church-ianity" has been fabricating and promoting, through "the wisdom of men". 1 Cor. 2:5.

That's the crux of the whole thing. It was never for Christ to do but the task was for Israel to do. Nothing in vs. 24 implies it was something Messiah was to do for them. For a proper understanding of vs. 24 it should be read like this. Dan. 9:24 - "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the (national) transgression, and to make an end of (national) sins, and to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." The prophecy knows how Israel will accept the Messiah and this deals w/ their rejection of him. The three latter parts of this prophecy will be fulfilled after Armageddon when Matt. 23:39 is fulfilled. They will bring in Christ (everlasting righteousness) to Jerusalem (the real triumphal entry) which will finish the visions and prophecy concerning this present age and anoint Christ as King and Messiah over Israel. Jesus laid the foundation for their national repentance and their failure to accomplish these at his first advent is why the 70th week was suspended until in the fullness of time, when Israel will be ready to repent as a nation. Zech. 12:10 prophecies about this and 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 will be saved and these are who the millennium will begin with. In the prophecy of vs. 26, it's not the prince that is important, it's "the people of" as this leads us to know historically who the a/c of vs. 27 will be leading.

 

[Trekson]

They were fighting for Rome. It wasn't some Chinese dynasty they were fighting for. Moot point.

It's not a moot point as the prophecy specifies that is "the people of" who destroy the city. Titus isn't important in this as it's not talking about him but about the prince yet to come that in the linear text is sometime "after" Rome. This lets us know that the a/c will be the head of nations from the eastern part of the Roman empire, not the western part as many mistakenly believe.

 

[Trekson]

Every time the word naos is used after the tearing of the veil it's referring to the sanctuary of the church or the Temple in heaven. Not one verse after the tearing of the veil using the word naos is talking about the Jerusalem temple.

My facts are correct and it's noticeable how you fail to provide verses using the word naos after the tearing of the veil that are referring to the Jerusalem Temple.

You need to back up your arguments with scripture references of passages referring to the Jerusalem temple that use the word naos, and which were written at a time after the veil in the Temple was torn - because until now all you have been doing is showing your own willful ignorance of the facts.

First the temple in heaven is just as real as the temple on earth will be but here ya go...of course you will refute these as your mind is closed but 2 Thess. 2:4 and Rev. 11:1, 2 and since this is speaking prophetically about the same event Dan. 11:31 and 12:11.

You're ignoring grammar, Scripture, and history.

See post 91.

Daniel 11:22-23 refers to events during the reign of Antiochus IV Epiphanes. It does not refer to the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem in Daniel 9.

 

[Earburner]

That's the crux of the whole thing. It was never for Christ to do but the task was for Israel to do. Nothing in vs. 24 implies it was something Messiah was to do for them. For a proper understanding of vs. 24 it should be read like this. Dan. 9:24 - "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the (national) transgression, and to make an end of (national) sins, and to make reconciliation for (national) iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy." The prophecy knows how Israel will accept the Messiah and this deals w/ their rejection of him. The three latter parts of this prophecy will be fulfilled after Armageddon when Matt. 23:39 is fulfilled. They will bring in Christ (everlasting righteousness) to Jerusalem (the real triumphal entry) which will finish the visions and prophecy concerning this present age and anoint Christ as King and Messiah over Israel. Jesus laid the foundation for their national repentance and their failure to accomplish these at his first advent is why the 70th week was suspended until in the fullness of time, when Israel will be ready to repent as a nation. Zech. 12:10 prophecies about this and 13:8-9 tells us that 1/3 will be saved and these are who the millennium will begin with. In the prophecy of vs. 26, it's not the prince that is important, it's "the people of" as this leads us to know historically who the a/c of vs. 27 will be leading.

Seriously, you have gone off on a religious tangent. Jesus Himself is The Righteousness of God. Therefore, everyone who is now "born again of the Holy Spirit", ever since Pentecost, HAS received the Righteousness of God, which is the gift of God's Eternal Life. 1 John 5:12-13.
We all who are born again are indeed saved from the condemnation of eternal death. John 3:18.
However, everyone who is NOT born again of His Spirit, remain to be condemned already, and as a result, they are "none of his". Rom. 8:8-9.

Israel, collectively, are as lost as any Gentile, for under the New Covenant through faith in Christ, THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE between Jew or Gentile. All are equally sinful, and if they are without Christ NOW, they also are under condemnation.

If those who are Jewish by heritage, neglect and/or reject their opportunity to receive Jesus as their Savior, while they still have breath, they are forever LOST!

As for the nation of Israel collectively, there will be NO SECOND CHANCE for them (or anyone else), AFTER the return of Jesus from heaven, in all His Immortal Glory.
The "Door" for the opportunity of God's salvation will have ENDED!!
WAKE UP!