The Last and Final Evil Kingdom of Daniel

[covenantee]

So how can their prince be the Messiah when Caesar was their god and king?

Because the only prince in the passage is Messiah.

 

[Davy]

Only until the verses talking about the tearing of the veil. Not after that. It's not a fallacy. Ignoring the facts about it in order to hold onto the notion that it's a physical temple in Jerusalem being spoken of in 2 Thess 2:4 is a fallacy. In this case you are the one holding onto a fallacy.
​

Already you reveal your having succumbed to men's doctrines trying to rely on interpretation by 'word fallacies'.

Below are Scriptures AFTER Christ's death and resurrection that use the Greek word naos for the traditional stone temple in Jerusalem...

No. 1
Acts 7:48
48 Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples (Greek naos) made with hands; as saith the prophet,
KJV

No.2
2 Thess 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple (Greek naos) of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

No.3
Rev 11:1-2
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple (Greek naos) of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple (Greek naos) leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

In No.1, the word "temples" is pointing to man-made stone temples.

In No.2, the "temple of God" phrase is about the coming Antichrist sitting in it to play God. That can ONLY be about a STONE TEMPLE on earth. And the reason is simple, because the Temple of The Spirit which Jesus Christ is the Cornerstone, and the Apostles and prophets as the foundation, CANNOT EVER BE CORRUPTED BY A FALSE ONE. Therefore, just INFERRING that "temple of God" Apostle Paul mentioned is the Spiritual Temple is BLASPHEMY against Jesus Christ, and is a doctrine of the devil!

In No.3, that "temple" is about a STONE TEMPLE IN JERUSALEM on earth, for the very END of this world. Rev.11:2 CONFIRMS THAT because that event of its "outer court" being given to the Gentiles linked with their treading of the holy city for 42 months can NEVER be about Christ's Spiritual Temple! And that Rev.11 Chapter, specifically with Rev.11:8, links to where that "temple" will be located; it is pointing to where God's "two witnesses" will be killed, which is shown to be JERUSALEM, on earth for the end leading up to Christ's future return.


So all you're doing is just following a false doctrine of men which the devil's servants planted at some time in the past. You just don't know it yet, because they have you relying on 'word fallacies' instead of grasp the simple CONTEXT of Bible Scripture.

And in case you don't understand what I mean by 'context', it simply means this: it requires more than one single word to create a 'context' of subject for comprehension in a language, and that includes Biblical languages.

So with the 2 Thess.2:4 example of the "man of sin" coming to sit in the "temple of God" to exalt himself as GOD, that would not have been easily understood to mean the traditional physical, stone temple in Jerusalem if it weren't that coming "man of sin" trying to play God in it, because the Temple of The Spirit in Jesus Christ NO man can corrupt. And for you, or anyone else claiming... to be a believer on Jesus Christ, should NEVER... EVER... think the true Spiritual Temple with Christ as its Cornerstone could ever be corrupted by any flesh man, or by any angel, or even by the devil himself! Since you heed a FALSE DOCTRINE FROM MEN that suggests that is possible, it means you do not properly understand the Salvation in Jesus Christ regarding His Temple of The Spirit.

 

[Trekson]

I'll take historical Christian orthodoxy over modernist cultic dispensationalism.

Every time.

Dan, 12:4 tells us, imo, that both secular and prophetic knowledge will increase in the latter days. The generation that actually sees these things start to be fulfilled will again, imo, have a greater understanding of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. I prefer to believe the scriptures themselves and not historic man's interpretation of them.

 

[Trekson]

Daniel 8:11; 11:31 and 12:11 has nothing to do with any destruction of the temple. The city and temple are not destroyed in those verses, and the temple is only defiled by an idol in it.

Those prophecies were fulfilled in the 2nd century BC, but that history did not completely fulfill everything. That's why they also point to 2 Thess 2:4 (and Matthew 24:15 - which also has nothing to do with the destruction of God's temple, but with its defilement, and corresponds with 2 Thess 2:4).

The error many make is to conflate the defilement of the temple (Dan 8:11; 11:31 and 12:11) with its destruction prophesied in Daniel 9:26-27, which prophesies the destruction of both the city and the temple.

QUOTE
"Abomination of Desolation" is a phrase from the Book of Daniel describing the pagan sacrifices with which the 2nd century BC Greek king Antiochus IV Epiphanes replaced the twice-daily offering in the Jewish temple, or alternatively the altar on which such offerings were made."
(Abomination of desolation - Wikipedia)
UNQUOTE

That temple was not destroyed. And the verses which talk about the defilement by Antiochus IV are Daniel 8:11, 11:31 and 12:11 - but because the prophecy is about the end time, Antiochus IV is only the type of the Antichrist. He did not completely fulfill the prophecy.

You really do need to separate the above defilement of God's temple from the destruction of the 2nd temple prophesied in Daniel 9:26-27.

Dan. 9: 26 and 27 are not speaking of the same event and the destruction of the temple was and is not the AoD and neither was the offering of pagan sacrifices by AE. The Aod is one thing alone and the image of Zeus that AE erected in the temple was a "type" for the real AoD which is depicted in Rev. 13:14-15. The AoD is something that will be placed, set up and found standing in the holy place. Christ said it was still in the future and I believe him. Btw, I agree that the verses you listed that I used have nothing to w/ the destruction of the temple because neither does the AoD.

 

[Trekson]

The beast of Revelation is not even the Eastern part of the Roman Empire. It's the former kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia and the Macedonian/Greek empires. Islamic. The Eastern part of the Roman Empire at its height soon after the time of Christ did not stretch much further East than current-day Lebanon, Israel and Gaza. The lion, the leopard and the bear of Revelation 13 is neither the Western nor the furthest extent of the Eastern part of the Roman Empire​

They are three of the kings mentioned in Rev. 17 but it's not those nations themselves, it's the nations they each, in their time, ruled over that neighbor Israel that are "the people of the prince to come", speaking of the future a/c because it is folks from those nations, as Rome's conscripted soldiers, that actually cased the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem in 70ad. Only the leaders were actually Romans. There is a reason the bible separates them from the future prince because in the context of the book of Daniel as a whole, the "prince to come" was "not" speaking of Titus nor Messiah.

 

[Earburner]

And such an unscriptural belief is EXACTLY what the antichrist needs to be successful and create the Apostasy....that is how "church-ianity" of all flavors will fall away. This is as bad, maybe worse than Pretrib's version where they escape away so they don't face the AC or Preterism's version where the AC is also real, but came long ago in the past.

Falsehoods:

1. The AC isn't a real end times figure.
2. We won't be here to have to deal with the AC.
3. The AC came in the past so cannot be a future figure.

All are antichrist denial.

Steer FAR away from all of those doctrines.

The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.

There IS NO future "AoD" to come, nor shall there be a future one man band, magic man, that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE" Antichrist. It's all a fabrication through "the wisdom of men".

EDIT: you and countless others are blatantly misunderstanding what "Beasts" and "horns" are symbolized to be in Daniel**.
But then in Rev., most all want to now personalize, the 10H Beast, the Image of that Beast , and the 2H Beast.
WHY??
You all don't know why, nor have you thoroughly researched it to understand that the 10H Beast in Rev. has been EVOLVING down through the years to today, being wounded, yet did live.
It's still with us, being known as the countries of Europe, whereby 10 of them in the near future, will be appointed and operative through the Beast (having 10H), of which shall be a Global Economic Empire, by which the "MoB" (digital money) shall come.
The Image is the UN, and the 2H Beast is the USA.
**Note: "horns" are symbolic of governments having a military.

 

[Jay Ross]

The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.

There IS NO future "AoD" to come, nor shall there be a future one man band, magic man, that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE" Antichrist. It's all a fabrication through "the wisdom of men".

EDIT: you and countless others are blatantly misunderstanding what "Beasts" and "horns" are symbolized to be in Daniel**.
But then in Rev., most all want to now personalize, the 10H Beast, the Image of that Beast , and the 2H Beast.
WHY??
You all don't know why, nor have you thoroughly researched it to understand that the 10H Beast in Rev. has been EVOLVING down through the years to today, being wounded, yet did live.
It's still with us, being known as the countries of Europe, whereby 10 of them in the near future, will be appointed and operative through the Beast (having 10H), of which shall be a Global Economic Empire, by which the "MoB" (digital money) shall come.
The Image is the UN, and the 2H Beast is the USA.
**Note: "horns" are symbolic of governments having a military.

Okay, then when does Daniel 7:11-12 take place then?

It is my understanding that the judgement of the heavenly hosts, i.e., the beasts and the little horn of Daniel 7:1-10, will take place in our near future at the same time that the Kings of the earth are judged on the earth, (Isaiah 24:21-22) and they, the judged heavenly hosts, who are the four beats and the Little horn in Daniel 7:1-10 plus the judged kings of the earth will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e., the Bottomless pit, for a period of 1,000 years after which they along with Satan will be released for a little while period.

Then in Dan 7:18-26 we are introduced to the four facetted beast that consist of the first four beasts of Danial 7:1-12 acting together in unison which is also referenced in chapter Rev 13, 17 and 19.

Now in Daniel 7:12 the beasts are allowed to live for a "season", i.e., 1,000 years, plus for a "time, which I believe will be for around 20-25 years before they are collectively, including Satan, dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

The "time" period mentioned after Daniel 7:19 is after the Bottomless pit is unlocked which will allow the imprisoned kings of the earth, the judged heavenly hosts, i.e., the beast and the False Prophet, i.e., the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8, and Satan to march all over the earth to upsurge God.

The Roman Empire army was given to the Little Horn so that the Little Horn could "magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. And in the rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did."

It seems that your understanding is lacking in what you post.

Shalom

PS: - Have edited to now read "after Daniel 7:19." It is what you get when you have no time to read your post before your actually post it. That paragraph should make more sense now.

 

[ewq1938]

The ONLY "little horn", who has ever been, and shall never be again, nor one like him, was Antiochus Epiphanies lV.

No, he wasn't the little horn. He has not yet been revealed and he and his ten horned kingdom is defeated by a coming of God and that hasn't happened yet. It's also hypocritical that you speak so much against the idea of a singular AC when you believe the AC was a singular man.

There IS NO future "AoD" to come, nor shall there be a future one man band, magic man, that "church-ianity" loves to call "THE" Antichrist. It's all a fabrication through "the wisdom of men".

EDIT: you and countless others are blatantly misunderstanding what "Beasts" and "horns" are symbolized to be in Daniel**.
But then in Rev., most all want to now personalize, the 10H Beast, the Image of that Beast , and the 2H Beast.
WHY??
You all don't know why, nor have you thoroughly researched it to understand that the 10H Beast in Rev. has been EVOLVING down through the years to today, being wounded, yet did live.

The ten horned beast is not yet in power because Rev 13 gives it only 42 months, not longer as you believe. Your "church-ianity" doesn't adhere to what is actually written,. but makes up it's own things and claims it's scripture.

 

[covenantee]

Dan, 12:4 tells us, imo, that both secular and prophetic knowledge will increase in the latter days. The generation that actually sees these things start to be fulfilled will again, imo, have a greater understanding of prophecy than all the previous generations combined. I prefer to believe the scriptures themselves and not historic man's interpretation of them.

The wisdom and understanding of historical defenders of the true faith have been recorded and preserved for our benefit and edification. It is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance to suggest that our wisdom and understanding is superior to theirs. Such is the essence of cultism. Wisdom and understanding do not increase over time, but rather erode and disappear as the events of Scripture and history fade from memory and cognizance.

To paraphrase George Santayana, those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat its errors.

What to believe?
Two centuries of modernist cultic dispensational delusion and denial
or
Seventeen centuries of declaration of Christ as the theme and fulfillment of prophecy by recognized defenders of the True Faith

Who needs a hint?

 

[Trekson]

The wisdom and understanding of historical defenders of the true faith have been recorded and preserved for our benefit and edification. It is the epitome of arrogance and ignorance to suggest that our wisdom and understanding is superior to theirs. Such is the essence of cultism. Wisdom and understanding do not increase over time, but rather erode and disappear as the events of Scripture and history fade from memory and cognizance.

To paraphrase George Santayana, those who ignore the lessons of history are condemned to repeat its errors.

What to believe?
Two centuries of modernist cultic dispensational delusion and denial
or
Seventeen centuries of declaration of Christ as the theme and fulfillment of prophecy by recognized defenders of the True Faith

Who needs a hint?

I'm not saying that modern "man's" wisdom will prevail. The various dispensations are God's designs, not made up by man. What will make our knowledge of the end times greater is the outpouring of the HS upon the church that will be equal to or greater than that the apostles received. I believe God's plan for the last generation of the church is just as important, if not more so, then the 1st generation's of the church. Actually, it's historicists that depends on the wisdom of men. Many futurists depend on the new understanding given by the HS of God in these latter days.

 

[Earburner]

Okay, then when does Daniel 7:11-12 take place then?

It is my understanding that the judgement of the heavenly hosts, i.e., the beasts and the little horn of Daniel 7:1-10, will take place in our near future at the same time that the Kings of the earth are judged on the earth, (Isaiah 24:21-22) and they, the judged heavenly hosts, who are the four beats and the Little horn in Daniel 7:1-10 plus the judged kings of the earth will be gathered together and imprisoned in a pit, i.e., the Bottomless pit, for a period of 1,000 years after which they along with Satan will be released for a little while period.

Then in Dan 7:18-26 we are introduced to the four facetted beast that consist of the first four beasts of Danial 7:1-12 acting together in unison which is also referenced in chapter Rev 13, 17 and 19.

Now in Daniel 7:12 the beasts are allowed to live for a "season", i.e., 1,000 years, plus for a "time, which I believe will be for around 20-25 years before they are collectively, including Satan, dispatched into the Lake of Fire.

The "time" period mentioned in Daniel 7:12 is after the Bottomless pit is unlocked which will allow the imprisoned kings of the earth, the judged heavenly hosts, i.e., the beast and the False Prophet, i.e., the little horn of Daniel 7 & 8, and Satan to march all over the earth to upsurge God.

The Roman Empire army was given to the Little Horn so that the Little Horn could "magnified itself, even to the Prince of the host; it removed His daily sacrifice and overthrew the place of His sanctuary. And in the rebellion, the host and the daily sacrifice were given over to the horn, and it flung truth to the ground and prospered in whatever it did."

It seems that your understanding is lacking in what you post.

Shalom

Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.

Dan. 7:11-12 (the vision)
[11] I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the [little,] horn [Antiochus Epiphanes lV (AE-lV) of the Grecian- Hellenistic, Seleucid Empire] spake:

I beheld even till the beast [Roman Empire] was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame [Nero's Rome].

[12] As concerning the rest of the [three] beasts [First-Babylon, second-Medio-Persia, and third-Grecian/Hellenistic], they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives [citizens, customs/traditions] were prolonged for a season and time [an undisclosed length of time].

Dan. 7:11-12 is interpreted by the angel to Daniel, in 7:16-27.
[16] I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.
[17] These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
[18] But the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever [Luke 12:32].

[19] Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast [Roman Empire], which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;
[20] And of the ten horns [ten emperors of Rome] that were in his head, and of the other [AE-lV] which came up [among/midst of them], and before [prior to] whom three [of four beasts] fell, even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look [vision] was more stout [great] than his fellows [3 others of the 4 Grecian-Hellenistic empires].
[21] I beheld, and the same [little] horn made war with the saints [OC Israel], and prevailed against them;
[22] Until the Ancient of days [Jesus] came, and judgment [the dispensing of eternal life-faith, or eternal death-no faith in Jesus] was given to the saints of the most High [during the Age of God's Grace-John 3:18]; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom [Luke 12:32, beginning on Pentecost].

The angel "recaps" in conclusion:
[23] Thus [in conclusion] he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth [Roman Empire], which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
[24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings [Emperors of Rome] that shall arise: and another [AE-lV] shall rise after [among] them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings [three of four ("fellows") Grecian-Hellenistic].
[25] And he [the little horn AE-lV] shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints [OC Israel] of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they [OC Israel] shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time [1290 days- Dan. 12:11-12; 1 Maccabees ch. 1-4].
[26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion [of AE-lV], to consume and to destroy it unto the end [of the Age of Indignation].

[27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High [since Pentecost-Luke 12:32], whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all [people of faith in Jesus, who are within] dominions shall serve and obey him.

 

[covenantee]

I'm not saying that modern "man's" wisdom will prevail. The various dispensations are God's designs, not made up by man. What will make our knowledge of the end times greater is the outpouring of the HS upon the church that will be equal to or greater than that the apostles received. I believe God's plan for the last generation of the church is just as important, if not more so, then the 1st generation's of the church. Actually, it's historicists that depends on the wisdom of men. Many futurists depend on the new understanding given by the HS of God in these latter days.

There are no "various dispensations". There are two: the Old Testament and the New Testament.

Futurists depend on the illicit malinterpretations of modernist cultic fantasy and fallacy, which strive to overturn the Holy-Spirit-given insight and wisdom of 17 centuries of true Christian orthodoxy, by denying the finished work of Christ at Calvary, contorting Christ into antichrist, and exhuming and perpetuating the racialized divisions between Jew and Gentile which Scripture repeatedly declares were abolished at Calvary.

Such is not any "new understanding given by the HS of God in these latter days".

It is instead another "gospel". Galatians 1:8,9

 

[Jay Ross]

Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.

. . . .

So, you have no idea as to when Daniel 7:11-12 actually takes place.

So do you want to have another go at answering the question that I asked.

Okay, then when does Daniel 7:11-12 take place then?

I then posted what I believe will happen. Do you also believe that Daniel 7:11-12 will take place in our near future?

Also please note that I have gone back, this morning my time, to correct the post that you quoted in your response to my post.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

No, he wasn't the little horn. He has not yet been revealed and he and his ten horned kingdom is defeated by a coming of God and that hasn't happened yet. It's also hypocritical that you speak so much against the idea of a singular AC when you believe the AC was a singular man.





The ten horned beast is not yet in power because Rev 13 gives it only 42 months, not longer as you believe. Your "church-ianity" doesn't adhere to what is actually written,. but makes up it's own things and claims it's scripture.

It's called interpretation by the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and not by words verbatim, according to "the wisdom of men", crunching words like numbers, as if our forms of correct language is the key.

The language of God is not Hebrew or Greek, but rather it is His Thoughts that "inspire" us through the languages that we all speak, while reading and hearing translations in our own tongue.

 

[Earburner]

So, you have no idea as to when Daniel 7:11-12 actually takes place.

Maybe you didn't perceive what I said about Daniel and Revelation.
Here it is again:

"Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.

 

[ewq1938]

and not by words verbatim

Not by the words God uses in scripture is what it is.

 

[Jay Ross]

Maybe you didn't perceive what I said about Daniel and Revelation.
Here it is again:

"Most Christians are not aware that the prophetic book of Daniel was for OC Israel, during the "Age of Indignation", just as the book of Revelation is for the NC church, for the "Age of God's Grace" through Jesus.

And you still did not reply to my question but gave your understanding of what the respective times are applicable to. When does the time of indignation of the Israelites end?

Remember that there is no distinction between the Israelites and the Christians, we are both God's Saints, and we will suffer at the end of the Seventh Age.

The redemption of the Israelites will occur soon just as Jesus foretold during His first advent.

Shalom

 

[Earburner]

And you still did not reply to my question but gave your understanding of what the respective times are applicable to. When does the time of indignation of the Israelites end?

It ended on the Day of Jesus' death and resurrection, the beginning the New Covenant, formerly displayed on Pentecost, which initiated the Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.

Remember that there is no distinction between the Israelites and the Christians, we are both God's Saints, and we will suffer at the end of the Seventh Age.

Correct, ever since Pentecost.

The redemption of the Israelites will occur soon just as Jesus foretold during His first advent.

Shalom

Israel on this side of the cross of Christ will all be of The Great Multitude.

 

[Jay Ross]

It ended on the Day of Jesus' death and resurrection, the beginning the New Covenant, formerly displayed on Pentecost, which initiated the Age of God's Grace through faith in Jesus.

Correct, ever since Pentecost.

Israel on this side of the cross of Christ will all be of The Great Multitude.

Again, you have not answered my question as to when Daniel 7:11-12 will take place?

You have shown that you have no understanding on the subject as to when Daniel 7:11-12 will take place. Your responses have all pointed to other events and not the event when Daniel 7:11-12 will take place.

 

[Earburner]

Not by the words God uses in scripture is what it is.

The symbolic words of Jesus often do point back to the prophetic OT scriptures.
As he said:
Search the scriptures (OT), for in them ye think that ye have eternal life, but they are they which testify of me".
Throughout the OT, we are to look for Jesus who was the "Promise to come", and not that so much, about the Jews.