Brakelite
Well-Known Member
Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.passages that speak outright of resurrection speak of the just and unjust as being resurrected together.
Who are these guys?
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Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.passages that speak outright of resurrection speak of the just and unjust as being resurrected together.
So then, no being guide into all truth, and no hearing what the Spirit says to the churches?one could spin off in all sorts of directions imagining what is not revealed. I think there is sufficient revealed to make us speechless without needing to wonder about what is not revealed.
Helena Blavatsky could have said the same thing.So then, no being guide into all truth, and no hearing what the Spirit says to the churches?
Sounds like quenching the spirit.
Possibly because it. Kindly take some time to carefully study 1 Corinthians 15 along with related portions of Scripture and you will discover many things I have mentioned.Possibly because its not.
What you have described, is world time being more and greater than eternal timelessness. See the problem? It's actually the other way around. It is world time that has restrictions and limits, and eternal timelessness that does not. The examples in scripture are numerous: "The Lamb slain before the foundation of the world", "before Abraham was, I am", etc., etc..And the meek inherit the earth...in which is time. I'm not even sure there isn't time in heaven. I mean, will we never consider what we did previously, and what we will do next?
I was quoting Jesus Christ.Helena Blavatsky could have said the same thing.
Being revealed does not mean it is understood. I think the volume revealed available already fries minds. It is our privilege to discover what is already revealed.So then, no being guide into all truth, and no hearing what the Spirit says to the churches?
Sounds like quenching the spirit.
There are several different takes on this passage in Revelation. Some, yes, do see it as meaning there must be two resurrections…by which they mean 2 separate physical resurrections.
However, there are those, and I am more persuaded by this argument, who believe that the ‘first resurrection’ being spoken about is not a physical one at all, but a spiritual one. Which would mean that the resurrection we experience at Christ’s coming…the physical resurrection…while, perhaps, would technically be the 2nd resurrection…it means that there is only 1 physical resurrection spoken of and taught.
Here is how that idea is believed and biblically backed up:
Revelation 20 says this about the 1st Resurrection:
“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”
What do we know about “the second death”? Revelation tells us:
“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
Those who experience the 1st resurrection do not fear the second death: the lake of fire: the hell of eternal punishment.
And who are those who are “Priests of God and Christ”? Who are these?
Revelation 1:5-6
“ and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
In short: it’s Christians. Christians do not fear hell, and we have been made a kingdom of priests.
But how is any of this a resurrection, you may ask?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 6:4
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12-13
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
There is a reason Christians call it ‘being born again’ or having ‘new life’. The NT is replete with verses that speak of what happens when we believe in Christ for salvation. The old dies and the new is born in him.
When we put together all these references of what happens to a person at regeneration…plus the Revelation references to that 1 resurrection (not needing to fear hell and becoming Priests of God)…a good biblical case is made for the 1st resurrection being a spiritual one. Especially when no other passage in the NT seems to point to multiple physical resurrections (in my opinion).
You are advocating for the status quo, for slumber and blindness, rather than "leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection" Hebrews 6:1Being revealed does not mean it is understood. I think the volume revealed available already fries minds. It is our privilege to discover what is already revealed.
Certainly conjecture by those who do not know, is and has been a great problem. And for this reason we have our commandment that women (the bride) be silent, that only God should speak by the Holy Spirit. But if those who do not know from God, but dabble in those things they do not know, also insist that pressing on is evil--this is the quenching of the Spirit, which gives aid to the darkness and prolongs the day.Quenching is done when when we overlay scripture with faulty ideas/conclusions and insist on them being right. With this dynamic operative how is it possible to be guided into all truth? or do we count on being knocked off our donkey's with bright lights like Paul?
Very good explanation of the first resurrection!There are several different takes on this passage in Revelation. Some, yes, do see it as meaning there must be two resurrections…by which they mean 2 separate physical resurrections.
However, there are those, and I am more persuaded by this argument, who believe that the ‘first resurrection’ being spoken about is not a physical one at all, but a spiritual one. Which would mean that the resurrection we experience at Christ’s coming…the physical resurrection…while, perhaps, would technically be the 2nd resurrection…it means that there is only 1 physical resurrection spoken of and taught.
Here is how that idea is believed and biblically backed up:
Revelation 20 says this about the 1st Resurrection:
“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”
What do we know about “the second death”? Revelation tells us:
“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
Those who experience the 1st resurrection do not fear the second death: the lake of fire: the hell of eternal punishment.
And who are those who are “Priests of God and Christ”? Who are these?
Revelation 1:5-6
“ and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
In short: it’s Christians. Christians do not fear hell, and we have been made a kingdom of priests.
But how is any of this a resurrection, you may ask?
John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
Romans 6:4
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
Colossians 2:12-13
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
There is a reason Christians call it ‘being born again’ or having ‘new life’. The NT is replete with verses that speak of what happens when we believe in Christ for salvation. The old dies and the new is born in him.
When we put together all these references of what happens to a person at regeneration…plus the Revelation references to that 1 resurrection (not needing to fear hell and becoming Priests of God)…a good biblical case is made for the 1st resurrection being a spiritual one. Especially when no other passage in the NT seems to point to multiple physical resurrections (in my opinion).
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.
As I said…it’s a massive assumption that just because God is outside of time (which we must allow since he created it), that he intends for us to ‘land there’ as well. Even being gifted ‘eternity’, can we truly say that we have the capacity to dwell outside time like God? What if that is one of his attributes AS God?And the meek inherit the earth...in which is time. I'm not even sure there isn't time in heaven. I mean, will we never consider what we did previously, and what we will do next?
I disagree. As, I think, would Paul.Very good explanation of the first resurrection!
But there is no physical resurrection. All such elements are burned with fire and are no more. 2 Peter 3:11-13 The flesh is not glorified as some insist by their own love of the flesh. But no, the glory that is to come, is the glory of God, whom is spirit.
Well….if we are (and I suppose I mean me here!) supposing that the 1st resurrection is talking of those who are made spiritually alive with Christ….Christians…., then we must suppose that the ‘rest of the dead’ are everyone not found in Christ. Both those alive and dead at his return, unsaved, they are ‘spiritually dead’.Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Who are these guys?
I think so too.Except that verse which states: And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The restof the dead did not come back to life untilthe thousand years were complete. This isthe first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!
This verse seems to clearly state two resurrections.
Here is something to consider; all are in Adam are they not and Adam is in all. All are also in Christ as the scripture says but Christ is not in all. Why is Christ not in all? Because they refuse the love of the truth that they are in Christ. They reject the new representative of the Human race given them freely. They refuse life and embrace death.....and many do it under the guise of having life. What a clever deception!Well….if we are (and I suppose I mean me here!) supposing that the 1st resurrection is talking of those who are made spiritually alive with Christ….Christians…., then we must suppose that the ‘rest of the dead’ are everyone not found in Christ. Both those alive and dead at his return, unsaved, they are ‘spiritually dead’.
We know that at Christ’s return there will be a physical resurrection of both the just and unjust. It tells us so in both Daniel and John. And, of course, we see in other passages that speak specifically of those belonging to Christ and his return…Rapture passages, people term them. They describe believers in Christ…both dead and alive…being ‘translated’.
So…we know that even the unjust will ‘live again’ in some way…and yet…are still bound for the second death…the lake of fire. It is only those in Christ and have experienced the ‘first resurrection’ that need not fear the second death.
Anyway, that’s how I see it. Again…I’m not dogmatic on it, it’s just the best explanation I’ve heard that makes sense of all the passages. I’m not going to be devastated if I’m wrong. Could be that it’s speaking specifically of those martyred during the tribulation time. I…just don’t see other passages supporting that view.
Forgive me…but the assumption that I have not already “carefully studied” 1 Corinthians, and that also any “careful study” that I might do would automatically produce views similar to yours, is both presumptuous and slightly preposterous.Possibly because it. Kindly take some time to carefully study 1 Corinthians 15 along with related portions of Scripture and you will discover many things I have mentioned.
I hear you, but there is more to it, more to consider and factor in.I disagree. As, I think, would Paul.
1 Corinthians 15:12-23
Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
Paul is clearly telling us 2 things here. The first is: if Christ was not physically raised from the dead…we’re all idiots and believing in nothing. Pipe dreams.
The second is that God DID in fact raise Christ, and that those of us who ‘belong’ to Christ (which presupposes a new life or spiritual birth in Christ has already taken place, or we would not be ‘his’) will also receive these ‘firstfruit’ bodies, just as Christ did at his resurrection. Paul goes on in the passage to explain the difference between natural bodies and spiritual bodies. The fact is, Christ’s ‘spiritual’ body, after he was raised from the dead, was still very physical. The bible records him interacting physically many times.
Thus, we see that Paul is telling us that the resurrection we can expect on the day of Christ’s return is physical. Which is nice, because I don’t know about you, but my current body suffers from the ravages of this current age. It gets sick, tired, sore…older. I think we may expect that in the new heavens and earth it will be a place where sin has not had its influence…on nature or people. God made us to be both physical and spiritual beings. It makes little sense that he would give us a new heart and spirit in Christ, but allow the affects of sin to remain on the other half of us. No…Paul tells us that at Christ’s coming, we, like the cosmos, will be made new…completely.
It’s entirely possible I’m letting my biases and presuppositions sway my understanding of the texts. We all do, even if we’re not aware of it.Mmm…that doesn’t make sense to me. It says those who had physically died and been beheaded came to life and it’s the first resurrection. They are physically dead and THEN they come to life. The rest of the dead do not live again until the thousand years are over. I think you are doing away with prophecy happening literally to support your understanding and your framework. Prophecy has happened literally even though there are spiritual fulfillment’s and meanings too. It’s the phrase “the rest of the dead” that tells me it is talking of physically dead men in both instances. If you have “the rest of the dead” then who are the first part of the dead?
1 Thess 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
It's not about what you're thinking. It's just distinguishing the difference between the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him, vs. those of us still alive on earth, at His coming.
And His parable of the tares of the field doesn't go into the future "thousand years" reign that Revelation 20 and Zechariah 14 declares, especially Zechariah 14, which shows leftovers of the wicked that will come upon Jerusalem on the last day of this world being made to come to Jerusalem from year to year to worship Christ, and keep the feast of tabernacles.
So by other Scripture than Matthew 13 by itself, we know there is a time period on earth with Christ's future reign with His elect over the unsaved, in the world to come. The unbelieving are not destroyed at Christ's return, but only after He reigns over them for a thousand years, for He must reign until all His enemies are made His footstool.