The Ones Who Are Left…

[Truth7t7]

That made me smile .....the Bible canon itself basically came out of the most reprehensible part of the harlot that God described in Revelation 17 & 18.....the one he will soon destroy...so he can use whomever he wishes to accomplish his purpose and to disseminate his word.

It is good to compare translations and use a concordance....you can see clearly where translation use bias. Compare John 1:1 with John 1:18 in the KJV, and look carefully at the wording in Greek. Very clear bias is demonstrated.

The KJV makes me cringe every time I see someone quote it.....who speaks like that? Do you? Would God if he came down and spoke to mankind now, use language that is outdated and misleading? Or would he speak in the common language of the ones he was communicating with?

Do you remember that the disciples gifted by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost were preaching in the languages of the Jews visiting from other land for the festival? (Acts 2:5-13) Why did God do that?

The whole purpose of translation is to present a clear understanding of God’s word.....the KJV fails on every level in this day and age IMO.

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great Of Revelation Chapter 17

The Levitical High Priest & Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes, The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven hilled city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

 

[Aunty Jane]

I’m curious so I can understand where you are coming from. In Hebrews 2:14 Lexicon: Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

what is your perspective of who He is, that since the children partook of flesh and blood, He also took part of the same flesh and blood that through death, He might destroy the power of death?

Jesus had to become a “flesh and blood” human in order to offer his life to “redeem” mankind.

If you understand the “redemption” laws in Israel, if a man incurred a debt and could not pay it, he was put to work for the one to whom he owed the debt, until it was paid in full. If he had a family to support, he could send a son or daughter to work in his place until the debt was paid. If the debt was very large, it could mean that they had to work for the rest of their lives. But if they had benevolent relative or friend who wanted to pay the debt for them, they were released from servitude. This is what Jesus did for us.

In 1 Corinthians 15:45 it speaks of Jesus as “the last Adam” because he had to offer payment for what the “first Adam” lost for his children, when he forced them into slavery to sin and death, with no way to pay the debt or to secure their release.
God’s law was “an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a life for a life” IOW, to pay a debt, or to pay for a crime committed, equivalency was required. What Adam lost for his children was perfect sinless life, so only a perfect sinless life could be offered in atonement. (“at-one-ment” or one for one) Jesus never had to be God, to do this.

The devil is the one who robbed us of the life that God had originally planned for us by deceiving the woman. He did not however, deceive the man, who made a deliberate choice to join her in disobedience in full knowledge of the death penalty. God’s displeasure was immediate and he evicted the pair from the garden, never again to allow them the pleasures of the life he had offered them so generously. He also cursed the ground outside the garden so that now they would have to “eat bread”, which meant trying to grow food in soil that was not fertile. It was hard labor.

They lost so much by their disobedience, but more so their children who were dragged into this situation through no fault on their part.
God determined a way to pay the debt, to free Adam’s children, and return them to the paradise he had intended for them at the outset. It was never God’s intention to take any human to heaven, or to send his son from heaven to become a ransom for mankind, but the devil caused this scenario to be played out and God addressed it in a way that would not allow any rebels in the future (all still in possession of free will) to ever abuse that privilege again.

That is how I understand the situation we find ourselves in. The devil hijacked the human race for his own selfish agenda and a ransom was demanded to pay for the crime that he had induced Adam to commit. Jesus came and willingly gave his life in exchange for ours. The debt is paid and now we are waiting to go “home”.....back to that beautiful place of peace and security that we all have implanted in our hearts....we long to live there because that is where God put humans in the first place...to enjoy the earthly paradise forever. Paradise is not heaven.

The original perpetrator, satan the devil however, was given free reign to prove to all that his rulership over mankind was doomed from the beginning.....once a knowledge of good and evil was unleashed, there was no way to “unknow” it. So we have seen first hand where it leads us and we will never want to go back to this life ever again. The object lesson we have all been a part of, will last forever.

I hope that has answered your question.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

but what if I truly do not understand your comprehensive explanation. You speak of blasphemy, what if it just doesn’t sink in? Is there such a thing as continued doing a thing unaware it is blasphemy for the lack of knowing Him? Is there such a thing as acting ignorantly in unbelief?

1 Timothy 1:12: I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,


1 Timothy 1:13: even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;


1 Timothy 1:14: and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

1 Timothy 1:15 : It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

God does not hold ignorance against anyone....unless it is willful. IOW if you know what God’s word says concerning a matter, and you choose to ignore it, (or accept an interpretation that is out of harmony with the rest of the Bible) that is completely different to never knowing the truth in the first place....
So the answer to your question is “YES”.

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12says...
“9 But the lawless one’s presence is by the operation of Satan with every powerful work and lying signs and wonders 10 and every unrighteous deception for those who are perishing, as a retribution because they did not accept the love of the truth in order that they might be saved. 11 That is why God lets a deluding influence mislead them so that they may come to believe the lie, 12 in order that they all may be judged because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness.”

By this it is apparent that satan has been given permission to try and lead humans down the wrong path....to test our faith and the basis for it (much like he did to Job). You can see what he uses to accomplish this....”powerful works...lying signs and wonders....every unrighteousness deception” but these can only mislead “those who are perishing”.....just as it says in 2 Corinthians 4:3-4...satan can only “blind the minds of the unbelievers”. So who are these ‘unbelievers’ who are ‘perishing’?

They can be deceived Christians who have fallen for the devil’s deceptions...because they want to believe the lies. They can be shown that the devil is lying to them and doing ‘tricks’ for them, but they don’t want to believe it. They have a delusion and they love it more than they love the truth.

So there is the answer to your question as I understand it....it is very possible to be deceived into believing the devil’s lies if we do not love the truth, which may be challenging everything we have ever been taught to believe. It’s hard to put down things that you have been taught to cherish as truth and to be told that God does not cherish them at all. This is why we were told to put away the “old personality” and put on a “new” one. (Colossians 3:9-10) The devil will make good appear to be bad and the bad, good....immorality to appear to be a new and accepted morality. He can make God appear to be someone that he is not...someone who could take pleasure in torturing souls in flame forever. But we are responsible for what we accept as truth. It demonstrates what is in about hearts.

 

[Aunty Jane]

(Jerusalem) Is The Whore, Mystery Babylon The Great Of Revelation Chapter 17

The Levitical High Priest & Dressing represents "The Woman", that is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, and precious stones as seen below

(Revelation) 17:4KJV
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

Yes, The Levitical High Priest, Dressed In Purple, Scarlet, Gold, And Precious Stones

(Exodus) 28:15-20KJV
15 And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.
16 Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.
17 And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.
18 And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.
19 And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.
20 And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

(Jerusalem) is the seven hilled city, where the woman sits, not Rome as many falsely claim.

(Revelation) 17:9KJV
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

List of cities claimed to be built on seven hills - Wikipedia
Jerusalem, Israel: Jerusalem's seven hills are Mount Scopus, Mount Olivet and the Mount of Corruption (all three are peaks in a mountain ridge that lies east of the Old City), Mount Ophel, the original Mount Zion, the New Mount Zion and the hill on which the Antonia Fortress was built.

The Roman Empire didnt exist to be guilty of the Prophets blood seen below, Jerusalem did.

(Revelation) 18:24KJV
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

(Matthew) 23:29-37KJV
29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I would answer that with what the Bible says about “Babylon the great”....

Do you think that the devil is only concerned with those who have had dealings with Israel?
This harlot has a kingdom over the kings of the earth....that is “kings” plural. Since when did “Jerusalem” ever have a kingdom over any nation? She herself has been subjugated ever since the Diaspora. She has held no kingdom over a single nation since her eviction from the Promised land due to her disobedience. Since Jesus identifies her as “those who killed the prophets”, she too is included in that designation but she is by no means the only part.

In order to have “a kingdom over the kings of the earth”, BtG has to be classified as an empire whose influence was seen in many kingdoms over a very long period of time, reaching right down to the present day. BtG is the world empire of satan the devil which designation is derived from original Babylon...the springboard from which all false religion originated, and was taken to every part of the earth when God confused the language of the Tower builders. (Genesis 11:1-9)

All religions which can trace their beliefs back to Babylon, are part of “Babylon the great”. Two of those religions are more reprehensible that all the rest, and that is Judaism and Christendom, because they both had God’s word and distorted its meaning to mislead their people. Satan was behind the scenes sniggering at his success. All he had to do was provide corrupt leadership and the people followed.

Babylon the Great is about to be destroyed by the very ones she had been in bed with for all the ages.
If you can step back and see that even in our day, these two bodies of believers have been up to their necks in corrupt politics and wanton bloodshed, currying favour with the world but not with God. (James 4:4)

The main embodiment of belief in all false worship follows a pattern in that there is a common thread running through all of them....
Beliefs in multiple gods or trinities of gods, which Christendom embraced with the influence of Roman Catholicism, creating three gods in one “head”.
Belief in an immortal soul that departs from the body at death.
Belief in places for those souls to go.....a heaven of bliss or a hell of eternal torment in flames.

Some beliefs are copied from Biblical ones and distorted so as to give the appearance of genuineness....like...that they all have their priests or holy men who can sometimes perform miracles.
They have priestly garments and paraphernalia and rituals that take place in temples...always holy places where prayers are offered to their gods along with offerings.

Can you not see that the devil’s empire is vast because he want mankind to follow him into destruction.....he is in “rule or ruin” mode, capturing as many as he can in his webs of deceit because that is the only way he can win.....to take down as many as he can with him. The most deluded are in Judaism and Christendom....all claiming to worship the same God as Jesus did, but deviating horribly from everything that he taught. Delusion is a powerful weapon.

See the post above....#263...

 

[Davy]

No lies whatsoever, as previously stated you deny the future "Bodily" resurrection of the believer

No, belief in a resurrection of the FLESH is a tradition of MEN, not per God's Word.

The following is what makes you a liar against God's Holy Writ...

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

That was Apostle Paul who said that, not me. So you are calling Apostle Paul a liar too!

 

[Davy]

Yes the Christian that died 100 years ago and was buried in the church graveyard, the body is still there

Yes this body in the graveyard will actually be raised and glorified at the second coming, just as Jesus Christ was raised and glorified in a body that maintained his scars from the cross of Calvary

Luke 24:36-43KJV
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

And then we have the following by Apostle Paul, whom Lord Jesus said was His "chosen vessel" to preach The Gospel...

1 Cor 15:44-50
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

That is FIVE obvious and simple examples that Paul gave above that the resurrection is to a "spiritual body", and NOT a flesh body. And with that "quickening spirit" idea, it is about Lord Jesus' transfigured body!

If one doesn't like Apostle Paul, there's always the evidence of what type body the resurrection is by Lord Jesus...

Matt 22:29-30
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
KJV

So you can keep believing your little 'dead in the ground' idea from the orthodox Jews. They don't study The New Testament, they don't believe on Jesus of Nazareth as God's Promised Saviour, so The New Testament is not given for them to know during this world while they reject Jesus. And their ilk does not belong here on a Christian forum!

 

[Oseas]

Revelation talks of two reapings. The first sounds pleasant and the second sounds awful.

Yes, there will be the reaping and Judgment of the Gentile peoples, and the reaping and Judgment of the Jewish people.
Romans 2:v.11-16 and 8-10
11 There is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law(the Gentiles-New Testament) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jewish people) shall be Judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
and
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

These righteous Judgment of GOD according His two witnesses to Judge the Jew and the Gentiles, I mean the OT and the NT respectivelly, yeah, this righteous Judgments will fulfill LITERALLY from now on, and the punishment is authomatic according Scriptures, indignation and wrath upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, both peoples will be TORMENTED with ETERNAL torment, the chastisments already started and will never end, it is for ever. Among us Christians will be saved only he who has the name written in the book of life, he who has not, get ready, because the Word - the Word is GOD - will cast him out of this heavenly place in Christ.

14 Then I saw a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was someone like the Son of Man.He had a gold crown on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand.

15 Then another angel came from the Temple and shouted to the one sitting on the cloud, “Swing the sickle, for the time of harvest has come; the crop on earth is ripe.” 16 So the one sitting on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the whole earth was harvested.

17 After that, another angel came from the Temple in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, who had power to destroy with fire, came from the altar. He shouted to the angel with the sharp sickle, “Swing your sickle now to gather the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth, for they are ripe for judgment.” 19 So the angel swung his sickle over the earth and loaded the grapes into the great winepress of God’s wrath. 20 The grapes were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress in a stream about 180 miles long and as high as a horse’s bridle.

GOD has seven Spirits. The seven Spirits of GOD are sent forth into all the earth, and He maketh His angels, Spirits, and His ministers, a flame of fire. Actually, angels symbolizes voices / mensages according the seven Spirits of GOD, and the voices / messages are already written in the book of the LORD.
Isaiah prophesied: Isaiah 5
v.7 - The vineyard of the Lord of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant.
v.3 - And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
v.4 - What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?
v.- 5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; and break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down.
v.6- And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
Surely the clusters of grapes from the vines of the earth are riped , they are ripe for Judgment, the grapes will be loaded into the great winepress of God’s wrath, they will be trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress.

Jesus gave us a great clue about this, that it can’t be all mashed together, when He stood up and read from Isaiah but stopped mid sentence. We have no idea if, in time, both reapings happen one right after the other.

JESUS said: João 4:v.35-37
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.
36 And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 And herein is that saying true, One soweth (JESUS), and another reapeth.

And we can see what appears to be a strange repeat of Him coming, once again, from three different places, or TO 3 different places. Does He come from Bozrah with robes stained red, on a cloud to gather together, or to the mount of olives with His feet splitting the mount?

I see that who comes "Bozrah with robes stained red", is not JESUS, but another.

Habakkuk 3:v.2 to 6
2 - O Lord, I have heard thy speech, and was afraid: O Lord, revive thy work in the midst of the years, in the midst of the years make known; in wrath remember mercy.

3 GOD came from Teman, and the Holy One from mount Paran. Selah. His glory covered the heavens, and the earth was full of his praise.

4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand: and there was the hiding of his power.

5 Before Him went the pestilence (this is already fulfilling literally-He is at the door), and burning coals went forth at his feet.

6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow: his ways are everlasting.

 

[Oseas]

Romans 2:v.11-16 and 8-10

11 There is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law(the Gentiles-New Testament) shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law (the Jewish people) shall be Judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the Day (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day, or seventh and last millennium) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
and
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

These righteous Judgment of GOD according His two witnesses to Judge the Jew and the Gentiles, I mean the OT and the NT respectivelly, yeah, this righteous Judgment will fulfill LITERALLY from now on, and the punishment is authomatic according Scriptures, indignation and wrath upon every soul of man that does evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile, both peoples will be TORMENTED with ETERNAL torment, the chastisments already started and will never end, it is for ever.
Among us Christians will be saved only he who has the name written in the book of life, he who has not, get ready, because the Word - the Word is GOD - will cast him out of this heavenly place in Christ.

 

[quietthinker]

The Ones Who Are Left… on second thoughts, I think I'll say nothing.

 

[farouk]

I’m not quite sure I’m with you on this. Consider:

Romans 10:9-10
[9] because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [10] For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

It seems very much to me, that Paul, while perhaps quoting the OT, he is, like often happens in the NT, applying it directly to Christ. Paul calls Christ ‘Lord’. He says justification is contingent upon belief and confession of said belief, in Christ.

Now…one concedes that a proper theology of God is important. The idea of the Trinity being one Godhead, and therefore allowing Paul to also call Christ “Lord”…applying Joel to him, does not negate the notion that they are separate persons within the Godhead.
But…when we read scripture carefully and thoroughly, while Jesus does indeed point us to the Father, and what he does is to glorify the Father, he in no way rejects or forbids worship of himself as God. This is because as the second member of the Trinity, he too is God, and thus for us not to worship him would be blasphemy. No…a correct theology of God, and the members of the Trinity, show us that we glorify God by worshiping his Son through the power of the Spirit.

John 13:31-32
[31] When he had gone out, Jesus said, “Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in him. [32] If God is glorified in him, God will also glorify him in himself, and glorify him at once.

John 14:13
[13] Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 14:26
[26] But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

So…all in all, by worshiping Christ as the Son, we ARE glorifying the Father, who we acknowledge and thank for sending the Son. We cannot be having ‘another God’ above ‘the Father’, because they are One. One God. But, as I said, proper theology would separate the persons.


So…are you suggesting the doctrine of the Trinity is in error?
I think, just very briefly, based upon the chapters I’ve quoted from above, that I see that as unlikely. We see direct references to all three members of the Trinity, all given ‘personhood’…”he” (even the ‘Helper’). We are clearly given a structure; the Helper reminds and ‘teaches’ us the things Jesus has said…he points us to Jesus; Jesus’ work on the cross and his gospel message. In our accepting and worshipping of Jesus, Jesus then glorifies the Father. But, Jesus tells us, while there is this structure, Christ is ‘in’ the Father, just as the Father is ‘in him’. In fact, we can also say the same about the Spirit, making up the Trinity.

John 14:16-17
[16] And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever, [17] even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

John 14:20
[20] In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you.

John 14:23
[23] Jesus answered him, “If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

So, we see that both God the Father and Christ himself are “in us” by the Spirit dwelling in us.
Basically, in this short chapter, we see that each member of the Trinity has separate roles. We see them given personhood. And we see them linked in divinity. We know that there is but one God, but scripture does seem to, overwhelmingly, when you’re aware of it, point towards 3 persons.

Hi @Naomi25 God in Three Persons working together in redemption is a wondrous subject!

 

[ScottA]

Okay, here’s a thought. And I preface it with the warning that it IS just a thought, I’m not trying to claim it’s true or inspired by God, and I’m not hoping to stir a great deal of angst among folks who think I’m nuts…I could be, I’m just noodling through something…but I thought it was an interesting thought, and one that sort of hit me as I was reading my bible, so…

Matt 13 gives us the parable of the weeds, and the explanation of it:


Matthew 13:24-30
The Parable of the Weeds
[24] He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, [25] but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. [26] So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. [27] And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ [28] He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ [29] But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, “Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.”’”

Matthew 13:37-43
[37] He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. [38] The field is the world, and the good seed is the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, [39] and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are angels. [40] Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. [41] The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, [42] and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. [43] Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

While I acknowledge that this will be argued against by Dispensationalists, who would claim a two stage ‘return’ of Christ…which would put, in their mind, this ‘end of the age’ event at his last coming, I argue it doesn’t actually give us permission to insert or assume that. And yes, we could go elsewhere and continue the argument, but that is not my current goal. Here, in the text, we are told rather clearly that BOTH people groups are being allowed to ‘grow’ until the end of the age. At which point, the angels are sent out to gather…to reap the law-breakers and sinners, and throw them into the furnace. It’s then that the ‘righteous’ will inherit the Kingdom of their Father.
My interest, in specific, was caught when I was reading this passage:


1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
[16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This passage is, without a doubt, talking about the ‘Rapture’. The event where Christians are ‘caught up’…gathered to be with Christ. Regardless of how or when you understand this event, it’s clearly there. But…huh. The dead in Christ go first. And then we who are alive. WHO ARE LEFT. After reading the parable of the weeds, I’m suddenly wondering if Paul is being at all literal here. If the parable can be taken at all seriously, then we might be able to say that at that future time, living Christians will witness the ‘harvesting’, or ‘reaping’ of sinners from the face of the earth. And once that has happened, then they will be gathered to meet the Lord.
It could, even understanding what is happening, be quite a daunting prospect.
Of course, it all could happen within seconds of one another, who truly knows.
But, like I said, it was interesting to me.

You have touched on many things, but the issue is perspective.

Looking at the words from the perspective of we who are in the world reading of it, we are naturally going to perceive the events on a timeline...because that is the world we live in, and it is all we know.

However, the things that are being revealed about the end, only make up half of what is being said. The other half is not on a timeline, not occurring incrementally over time--that other half, is rather God's perspective. Remember, God is spirit, and the words are spirit--not of this world. That means, no timeline of events, no shadow of turning, etc.. Sooo...you are looking from the wrong perspective to get the right answers to your questions.

Thus, you/we can remove time from the named list of things that occur, snap our fingers and know that in the kingdom of God, it all happens just as it is written...except not over the course of time, as time is only of this world. Or you/we can hear it all as it was incrementally broken down for us over time, and know that what is written and how it is written, is the best we are going to get from this [worldly] perspective.

Now...let's say you have the mind and imagination to honestly consider it all from God's timeless perspective. But let's start with something not so complex. Let's look at how and when we all come into this world (from our perspective of time): It would be correct to say that we all come in our own time. You come in your time and I came in my time and our parents and their parents all came in their own time. Easy right?

But since you are not discussing our arrival into the world, but rather our departure, or our arrive into the kingdom...let's look at that from God's timeless perspective. So, no shadow of turning right? No days, no weeks or months or years, right? Therefore, no arrival into the timeless realm of God at each of our own different times possible right? What then? Well...yes, just as we all came in our own times, it makes sense that we all leave in our own order--Paul said that, go figure. But, what he didn't really elaborate on...except to say that we would then forever be with the Lord...is--are you ready for this? In order to align with that timeless perspective and realm of God in heaven-- We would all have to arrive...together.

But now I've said too much.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Did you miss the part where this was wild speculation on my part…like “what if unicorns were real?”
Nice you took the time to really address it tho.
Yes, I believe in a ‘last day’ resurrection for all. And, while I enjoy a bit of speculation here and there, and also enjoy conversation with those who see it differently, I believe there will only be one.

Except that verse which states: And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The restof the dead did not come back to life untilthe thousand years were complete. This isthe first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!

This verse seems to clearly state two resurrections.

 

[Naomi25]

Hi @Naomi25 God in Three Persons working together in redemption is a wondrous subject!

Hi Farouk! Yes, wondrous indeed, and somewhat mysterious. I confess that I don’t…or maybe it’s can’t…fully understand the wonder of the Trinity…and I’m ok with that. A God that can be fully comprehended by the ones he made is not much of a God.
I enjoy knowing that in the next age things will be made known to me, that now I only ‘see dimly’…but even then, I expect I’ll lack the capacity to fully know him. The joy of it is, we’ll have eternity seeing more and more…a seemingly unending well to drink from.

 

[Naomi25]

You have touched on many things, but the issue is perspective.

Looking at the words from the perspective of we who are in the world reading of it, we are naturally going to perceive the events on a timeline...because that is the world we live in, and it is all we know.

However, the things that are being revealed about the end, only make up half of what is being said. The other half is not on a timeline, not occurring incrementally over time--that other half, is rather God's perspective. Remember, God is spirit, and the words are spirit--not of this world. That means, no timeline of events, no shadow of turning, etc.. Sooo...you are looking from the wrong perspective to get the right answers to your questions.

Thus, you/we can remove time from the named list of things that occur, snap our fingers and know that in the kingdom of God, it all happens just as it is written...except not over the course of time, as time is only of this world. Or you/we can hear it all as it was incrementally broken down for us over time, and know that what is written and how it is written, is the best we are going to get from this [worldly] perspective.

Now...let's say you have the mind and imagination to honestly consider it all from God's timeless perspective. But let's start with something not so complex. Let's look at how and when we all come into this world (from our perspective of time): It would be correct to say that we all come in our own time. You come in your time and I came in my time and our parents and their parents all came in their own time. Easy right?

But since you are not discussing our arrival into the world, but rather our departure, or our arrive into the kingdom...let's look at that from God's timeless perspective. So, no shadow of turning right? No days, no weeks or months or years, right? Therefore, no arrival into the timeless realm of God at each of our own different times possible right? What then? Well...yes, just as we all came in our own times, it makes sense that we all leave in our own order--Paul said that, go figure. But, what he didn't really elaborate on...except to say that we would then forever be with the Lord...is--are you ready for this? In order to align with that timeless perspective and realm of God in heaven-- We would all have to arrive...together.

But now I've said too much.

I…sort of see what you’re saying. I understand (and have pondered on previously) the idea that, since we expect that God lives outside of time, it could very well be possible that at ‘that end of the stick’ (by which I mean…death, for us all) we are all, in fact, waking in the Lords presence at the same time. A step out of this world (in time) is to step into one where time is no more. Of course, I don’t truly have the capacity to grab hold of all the implications of this. And…well…I think as far as it goes, this can be…even for the smartest of us…speculation at best…we are not truly told in scripture any of these things.
But…even pondering on these things and the perspective of them from the ‘No time’ side….should we not also consider them from our side? After all, we live in time…Christ came into time, and the word was given to us in time. In point of fact, as we read through scripture, while we get the clear picture that time means something else entirely to God, his plan is still presented to us IN time.
Thus…while I think it is an extremely interesting thought experiment to weigh many of these ‘next life’ promises against the idea of stepping outside of time, I do think that we ought not dismiss the time that God has set us within. I do not believe I see in scripture anything that calls us to thinking above and beyond it to understand God’s truths.
That’s my take. But…if I’ve totally missed your point (which is entirely possible) please correct me!

 

[Naomi25]

Except that verse which states: And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The restof the dead did not come back to life untilthe thousand years were complete. This isthe first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection!

This verse seems to clearly state two resurrections.

There are several different takes on this passage in Revelation. Some, yes, do see it as meaning there must be two resurrections…by which they mean 2 separate physical resurrections.
However, there are those, and I am more persuaded by this argument, who believe that the ‘first resurrection’ being spoken about is not a physical one at all, but a spiritual one. Which would mean that the resurrection we experience at Christ’s coming…the physical resurrection…while, perhaps, would technically be the 2nd resurrection…it means that there is only 1 physical resurrection spoken of and taught.

Here is how that idea is believed and biblically backed up:

Revelation 20 says this about the 1st Resurrection:
“Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.”

What do we know about “the second death”? Revelation tells us:
“Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”

Those who experience the 1st resurrection do not fear the second death: the lake of fire: the hell of eternal punishment.
And who are those who are “Priests of God and Christ”? Who are these?

Revelation 1:5-6
“ and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

In short: it’s Christians. Christians do not fear hell, and we have been made a kingdom of priests.
But how is any of this a resurrection, you may ask?

John 5:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Romans 6:4
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12-13
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

There is a reason Christians call it ‘being born again’ or having ‘new life’. The NT is replete with verses that speak of what happens when we believe in Christ for salvation. The old dies and the new is born in him.

When we put together all these references of what happens to a person at regeneration…plus the Revelation references to that 1 resurrection (not needing to fear hell and becoming Priests of God)…a good biblical case is made for the 1st resurrection being a spiritual one. Especially when no other passage in the NT seems to point to multiple physical resurrections (in my opinion).

 

[Enoch111]

a good biblical case is made for the 1st resurrection being a spiritual one. Especially when no other passage in the NT seems to point to multiple physical resurrections

The New Birth is in one sense a resurrection (actually a quickening) of the dead spirit, but you are confusing that with actual physical resurrection (which is the only meaning it has in Scripture). What most people fail to grasp is that the first resurrection (the resurrection of the just or the righteous) is actually in three phases, similar to a Hebrew harvest: (1) Christ the first fruits, (2) the Resurrection/Rapture the main harvest, and (3) the resurrection of the Tribulation saints the gleanings. See 1 Corinthians 15.

 

[ScottA]

I…sort of see what you’re saying. I understand (and have pondered on previously) the idea that, since we expect that God lives outside of time, it could very well be possible that at ‘that end of the stick’ (by which I mean…death, for us all) we are all, in fact, waking in the Lords presence at the same time. A step out of this world (in time) is to step into one where time is no more. Of course, I don’t truly have the capacity to grab hold of all the implications of this. And…well…I think as far as it goes, this can be…even for the smartest of us…speculation at best…we are not truly told in scripture any of these things.
But…even pondering on these things and the perspective of them from the ‘No time’ side….should we not also consider them from our side? After all, we live in time…Christ came into time, and the word was given to us in time. In point of fact, as we read through scripture, while we get the clear picture that time means something else entirely to God, his plan is still presented to us IN time.
Thus…while I think it is an extremely interesting thought experiment to weigh many of these ‘next life’ promises against the idea of stepping outside of time, I do think that we ought not dismiss the time that God has set us within. I do not believe I see in scripture anything that calls us to thinking above and beyond it to understand God’s truths.
That’s my take. But…if I’ve totally missed your point (which is entirely possible) please correct me!

Well, you mentioned God's "plan", and you are correct, it is in time: His plan to prosper us, and his plans to work all things together for good for those who love Him, etc.. However, the plan to "prosper" and give us a "hope and a future" (as it is written) are not speaking of the plan played out in time, so much as they are about the end being "good", "hopeful" and "future." So, that puts us back at considering the end or the means.

But I get your point...meanwhile, it would be nice to have some idea of just how it all plays out. I recommend considering each of the passages of scripture by first [rightly] dividing each thought presented into two groups: time items, and timeless items. It should reveal a lot that you might not have considered.

 

[quietthinker]

Well, you mentioned God's "plan", and you are correct, it is in time: His plan to proper us, and his plans to work all things together for good for those who love Him, etc.. However, the plan to "prosper" and give us a "hope and a future" (as it is written) are not speaking of the plan played out in time, so much as they are about the end being "good", "hopeful" and "future." So, that puts us back at considering the end or the means.

But I get your point...meanwhile, it would be nice to have some idea of just how it all plays out. I recommend considering each of the passages of scripture by first [rightly] dividing each thought presented into two groups: time items, and timeless items. It should reveal a lot that you might not have considered.

one could spin off in all sorts of directions imagining what is not revealed. I think there is sufficient revealed to make us speechless without needing to wonder about what is not revealed.

 

[Naomi25]

The New Birth is in one sense a resurrection (actually a quickening) of the dead spirit, but you are confusing that with actual physical resurrection (which is the only meaning it has in Scripture). What most people fail to grasp is that the first resurrection (the resurrection of the just or the righteous) is actually in three phases, similar to a Hebrew harvest: (1) Christ the first fruits, (2) the Resurrection/Rapture the main harvest, and (3) the resurrection of the Tribulation saints the gleanings. See 1 Corinthians 15.

With all due respect, you yourself have just allowed that my post has legitimacy.
I said that ‘a biblical case can be made’. And you agreed that new birth is, ‘in one sense a resurrection’.
I am not being dogmatic on this point…it is not a hill I wish to die upon. But, as I laid out above, I see enough scriptural evidence joining together to paint a picture to claim a view on the issue.
You disagree, which is absolutely your right. However, I would wish to ask you a question or two about the claims you’ve made.
You say that “physical resurrection is the ONLY meaning ‘resurrection’ has in scripture”. Really? How do you know? What particular passage/s do you plumb to be able to make that unassailable assertion?
You claim that the ‘first resurrection’, which is ‘of the just’ happens in ‘3 phases’. Again…how do you determine that? I see nothing in 1 Cor 15 or any other passage in scripture that gives leave to assume a break in either second coming or in resurrection. Indeed…it would seem to me that the passages that speak outright of resurrection speak of the just and unjust as being resurrected together. How do you find ‘3 phrases’ of just the ‘just’?
Clearly we see 1 Cor 15 differently. I simply cannot see how you can read a separation of Rapture/Trib Saints in there. Possibly because its not.

 

[Brakelite]

I…sort of see what you’re saying. I understand (and have pondered on previously) the idea that, since we expect that God lives outside of time, it could very well be possible that at ‘that end of the stick’ (by which I mean…death, for us all) we are all, in fact, waking in the Lords presence at the same time. A step out of this world (in time) is to step into one where time is no more. Of course, I don’t truly have the capacity to grab hold of all the implications of this. And…well…I think as far as it goes, this can be…even for the smartest of us…speculation at best…we are not truly told in scripture any of these things.
But…even pondering on these things and the perspective of them from the ‘No time’ side….should we not also consider them from our side? After all, we live in time…Christ came into time, and the word was given to us in time. In point of fact, as we read through scripture, while we get the clear picture that time means something else entirely to God, his plan is still presented to us IN time.
Thus…while I think it is an extremely interesting thought experiment to weigh many of these ‘next life’ promises against the idea of stepping outside of time, I do think that we ought not dismiss the time that God has set us within. I do not believe I see in scripture anything that calls us to thinking above and beyond it to understand God’s truths.
That’s my take. But…if I’ve totally missed your point (which is entirely possible) please correct me!

And the meek inherit the earth...in which is time. I'm not even sure there isn't time in heaven. I mean, will we never consider what we did previously, and what we will do next?