Please do not attempt character assassination by equating my theology with Joseph Smith and Mormonism.
Wouldn't dream of it, bro', but you DO need to understand that it is the same MENTALITY that helped Joseph Smith to validate his belief-system. I'm not calling you a "Mormon" or anything close. But, I DO wish you'd be able to see the similarities between how you handle the Scriptures and how he got his start! That's the danger I see in what you promote!
It is not me but you that sees only according to the eyes and mind of the flesh while the Spirit you cannot see.
Well, I say that it's not me but you who cannot see anything in the Scriptures BUT analogy! You're OBSESSED with it!
The Father is Spirit and they that worship him must worship him in Spirit and in Truth. (John 4:23-24) Likewise Yeshua says: "It is the Spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit, and they are life." (John 6:63) And again the Word states clearly: "the Testimony of Yeshua is the Spirit of prophecy!" (Rev. 19:10) So who then are you to decide for others how God works? Only by the Scripture can we know his ways and in the Spirit we do not eat with our mouths for the Testimony of Yeshua is that "Whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught. But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man." (Matthew 15:16-20) So likewise to you also, since you quoted from this conversation with someone else; how do you know that you also are not eating things sacrificed to idols? (Acts 15:20-29) Do you even know what this truly means and how critically important it is according to the Scripture?
"Worshipping the Father in Spirit" does NOT mean to "spiritualize" or "allegorize" everything in the Scriptures! By the way, the word "spiritualize" is a really awful word and a bastardization of "spiritual" (Greek: pneumatikos) as it is used in the Scriptures! Not saying that you used the word; just letting you know what I think of it.
Now, regarding "eating things sacrificed to idols," do YOU even know what it means? I'm judging from your implied interpretation of the following verses that you DON'T! I mean, just look at the HODGE-PODGE of Scripture verses that you have meshed together in your last paragraph! Really?! Are you serious?!
Acts 15:20-29 KJV
20. But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions [GSN#234 alisgema] of idols, [GSN#1497 eidolon] and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
22. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23. And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24. Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
25. It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26. Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27. We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28. For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29. That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, [GSN#1494 eidolothuton] and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Original Strong's Ref. #234
Romanized alisgema
Pronounced al-is'-ghem-ah
from alisgeo (to soil); (ceremonially) defilement:
KJV--pollution.
Original Strong's Ref. #1497
Romanized eidolon
Pronounced i'-do-lon
from GSN1491; an image (i.e. for worship); by implication, a heathen god, or (plural) the worship of such:
KJV--idol.
Original Strong's Ref. #1494
Romanized eidolothuton
Pronounced i-do-loth'-oo-ton
neuter of a compound of GSN1497 and a presumed derivative of GSN2380; an image-sacrifice, i.e. part of an idolatrous offering:
KJV--(meat, thing that is) offered (in sacrifice, sacrificed) to (unto) idols.
It has nothing to do with physical meats Retrobyter. So how are you doing with abstaining from things having been sacrificed to idols? Are you even in compliance with the epistle of Acts 15? This has everything to do with Revelation 2:20 which I quoted, then you quoted, and likewise have responded with this post suggesting that it is not allegorical. In the Spirit we do not eat with our mouths but rather with our eyes and ears, (part of the ongoing discussion of the previous several pages). Whatsoever you allow into your ears and in front of your eyes goes into your heart.
CONTEXT! CONTEXT! CONTEXT! Here's the background information of the small portion you've quoted. Just sit back and relax and read the text for enjoyment and understanding:
Paul and Barnabas had last sailed to Antioch in Acts 14:26 and were teaching there when this story picks up:
Acts 15:1-35
1 And certain men which came down (literally for Judaea was in the mountains and Antioch was on the plain near the coast) from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice (Phoenicia) and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren.
4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, "That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses."
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, "Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace (i.e. when they were finished), James answered, saying, "Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon (Peter) hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
16 'After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.'
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain (1) from pollutions of idols, and (2) from fornication, and (3) from things strangled, and (4) from blood.
21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."
22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; "The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, 'Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law': to whom we gave no such commandment:
25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,
26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain (1) from meats offered to idols, and (4) from blood, and (3) from things strangled, and (2) from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well."
30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle:
31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation.
32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.
33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles.
34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still.
35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
KJV
So, the real questions are (1) what is the difference between the Greek phrase "toon alisgeematoon toon eidooloon" and the more succinct "eidoolothutoon" written in the letter? (2) what are the other three things? and (3) how do they relate to the first? If you want to look up a Scripture passage that is relevant to this passage, try the letters to the Romans and first one to the Corinthians:
Romans 14:11-23
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.
16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
KJV
1 Corinthians 6:7-18
7 Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
KJV
1 Corinthians 8:4-13
4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
8 But meat commendeth us not to God: for neither, if we eat, are we the better; neither, if we eat not, are we the worse.
9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
11 And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
12 But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
13 Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend.
KJV
You're trying to stretch the meaning of "eidoolon" into something that can be applicable today. That's okay, but don't butcher other Scriptures to do it! The word "eidoolon" is exactly the word from which our word "idol" comes, and a person today may not make a statue of a god out of wood or stone or silver or gold and worship it as they used to (although some still do that in other less-developed countries), but we set up houses and vehicles and popular people in sports, music, television, and movies as our "idols." For some it may be special, coveted clothing; for others, it may be in the making of money - anything that may take our attention away from the true God who deserves our worship!
However, in the times that these letters and the history of the Acts of the Apostles were written, the idols were LITERALLY physical idols, some small but many were HUGE and had large shrines and pavilions dedicated to these idols. Restaurants were there within the auspices of those pavilions which served meats that had been sacrificed to those idols. Any of the people could come and eat there, and many did. It was where many people were used to "hanging out" with their friends and relatives. Many of the new converts to the Way may have been familiar with going there to eat back when they believed in their gods. Jews knew that there was only one true God and Jewish converts to the Way would have no problem going there to get their food, but the ones who used to worship the gods there, may have a problem "letting go" of their past and seeing that these idols were not real gods!
The letter to the people in Antioch mentioned in Acts 15 was for them and was about this matter! Within the pavilions of these gods were private rooms or tents set up where one could go in to a temple priestess, who was just a temple prostitute, since sex was often a part of their rituals. It may even be encouraged by the believer's own unbelieving family or friends with the superstition that such activity would produce that god's or godess's favor and provide good crops that year or some other such blessing. So, why should a believer go to such a place that could trip up such a new convert?
That may carry over in spirit (in attitude) to a believer today not going to a particular bar or pub or casino to eat because of what it could do to a new convert who was susceptible to hanging out in such bars or pubs or casinos, etc. or to participating in some event that others participating in the same event might remember that the event led to other activities afterward. It's like a person shouldn't take another person who is newly recovering from alcoholism into a place that serves alcohol!
Matthew 6:19-20 KJV
19. Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20. But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
How is it that the greatest "treasure" for which you speak the most often, in these forum boards, appears to be a future physical earthly empire ruling the known physical world? How is it that your treasure is laid up in heaven when you say it is not even "heaven" but rather an "ouranos-sky kingdom"?
You need to get your eyes checked. I've never said that "heaven" is an "ouranos-sky kingdom." I said that "heaven" MEANS "ouranos-sky" and that "kingdom of heaven" MEANS a "Kingdom that comes FROM the sky," because the King, when He returns, will likewise "come FROM the sky!" There IS NO KINGDOM without the presence of the KING! And, that's a literal, physical, bodily presence of the King, btw! And, if you knew anything about me at all, you'd know that I value very little the things of this physical world that others value. My valuables ARE laid up in a very literal, physical, and concrete place called the New Jerusalem that will be arriving all in good time, and my greatest Valuable is the One whom I recognize as my King Apparent, Yeshua` HaMashiach.
If you want to call that city "heaven," that's fine, but I know that when the term "Heaven" is used, they frequently mean something OTHER than the New Jerusalem of which the New Jerusalem may just be a constituent part! I've heard it's the "Spiritual Realm," "another dimension," "another planet," and many other descriptions! I also find it ironic that the descriptions they give about "Heaven" are EXACTLY the descriptions that are given about the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22, with the "pearly gates" and the "streets of gold," etc!
Continuing the Matthew passage:
Matthew 6:21-22 KJV
21. For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22. The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
The luchnos-lamp of the body is the eye. This means that whatsoever you put in front of your eyes is like oil for your lamps, (eyes) and the oil then goes into your lamps and lightens the INSIDE of your body! If your eye be singularly focused upon the Word, (as interpreted through Messiah) then the whole inside of you will be full of light.
Matthew 6:23-25 KJV
23. But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24. No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25. Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
But if you have a "nomad wandering eye" that is always going astray towards the mammon of the world then your whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you be darkness, how great is that darkness! Therefore be careful what you allow into your ears and put before your eyes because it is spiritual food whether for the good or whether for the evil: and most of what is offered to believers of today is food having been sacrificed to the idols of the authors. Hal Lindsey, Tim Lahaye, Jack Van Impy, just to name a few, or anyone else who charges twenty to fifty Illuminati green-back eye of horus dollar bills for his or her paperback prophecy manuals, is engaged in selling you food sacrificed to his own idols of mammon:
James 2:1-4 KJV
1. My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3. And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4. Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?
1 Peter 5:1-3 KJV
1. The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
2. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
3. Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Revelation 2:12-14 KJV
12. And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges;
13. I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14. But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, [GSN#1494 eidolothuton] and to commit fornication.
Think that these things have nothing to do with the overall conversation at hand?
1 Corinthians 10:14-21 KJV
14. Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
15. I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.
16. The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?
17. For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.
18. Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? [but we are of the Spirit]
19. What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?
20. But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
21. Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.
This has not to do with what enters your mouth and goes to your belly but rather what enters your eyes, ears, and heart! :)
Regarding all the rest, you're "preaching to the choir," bro', but I can get all this directly from these verses without the faux connection to John 4 or John 6 or Revelation 19 or Matthew 15 or Acts 15!
