Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He obviously was just making it up that there were ECFs who believed in a pre-trib rapture. I can't believe how dishonest these pre-tribs are.
The Rapture and the Tribulation - Short
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Truth7t7
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Pseudo-Ephraem was translated into English at Tyndale Seminary In Texas by Cameron Rhoades, it was done at the request of David Cloud and the late Grant Jeffrey for his book, the three mentioned are all biased pre-trib advocates being big names in this community
Tyndale Seminary is the size of a house in (Hurst Texas) and unaccredited in theological studies, Cameron Rhoades English that you quote is a biased "Farce"
When Was the Pre-Tribulation Rapture First Taught?
January 31, 2024 (first published November 6, 2014)
David Cloud, Way of Life Literature, P.O. Box 610368, Port Huron, MI 48061
In the 1990s some of Ephraem’s writings were translated into English for the first time, one of these being On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, A.D. 373.
The translation was done by Professor Cameron Rhoades of Tyndale Theological Seminary at the bequest of Grant R. Jeffrey. It was subsequently published in Jeffrey’s 1995 book Final Warning.
Tyndall Seminary Hurst Texas Below
701 W Pipeline Rd, Hurst, TX 76053
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Truth7t7
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Not one word you provide teaches of Darby's pre-trib rapture, you use the word "Escape" and try desperately to turn this into your pre-trib rapture, keep looking its found no place in scripture
Truth7t7
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Yes I also believe dishonesty is in play, humans will go to great lengths trying to be right, man's pride in stubborn rebellion
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. There was nothing in any of that text that said anything about anyone being taken off of the earth to avoid tribulation, but instead it talked about being protected while still on the earth. Pre-tribs apparently think we need to be escorted off of the earth whenever trouble comes and that God isn't capable of protecting us any other way.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Right. That quote talks about escaping tribulation and then after that spending "the rest of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly". So, he clearly was talking about being protected and enduring tribulation while on the earth and, once getting through it and enduring it, then serving the Lord the rest of your life after that. Nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture whatsoever.
Davy
Well-Known Member
It is amazing... how those fooled by men's false pre-trib rapture theory try to cite all kinds of early historical proof of it being preached in the Church when Lord Jesus Christ Himself showed that His coming to gather His saints will be AFTER... the tribulation, as written in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27.
Even the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Scripture which those on man's pre-trib rapture theory try to interpret means Christ rapturing the Church prior to the tribulation actually instead reveals the time of Christ's coming is timed with when the future resurrection happens...
1 Thess 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
That phrase in red is a direct reference to the future resurrection. And in John 6:40, Jesus proclaimed that He will raise up His saints on the LAST DAY. That means AFTER the "great tribulation", not prior to it.
Thus the pre-trib rapture theory doctors even depend on their congregations NOT studying their Bible to grasp that above, but just believe those doctor's LIES, because I can about guarantee, not all of those pre-trib rapture doctors are deceived about the LIE they are pushing. God makes this point too, because in Ezekiel 13 He is rebuking those pre-trib preachers.
Even the 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 Scripture which those on man's pre-trib rapture theory try to interpret means Christ rapturing the Church prior to the tribulation actually instead reveals the time of Christ's coming is timed with when the future resurrection happens...
1 Thess 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV
That phrase in red is a direct reference to the future resurrection. And in John 6:40, Jesus proclaimed that He will raise up His saints on the LAST DAY. That means AFTER the "great tribulation", not prior to it.
Thus the pre-trib rapture theory doctors even depend on their congregations NOT studying their Bible to grasp that above, but just believe those doctor's LIES, because I can about guarantee, not all of those pre-trib rapture doctors are deceived about the LIE they are pushing. God makes this point too, because in Ezekiel 13 He is rebuking those pre-trib preachers.
Yes, the last Day of this world is the resurrection
Spoken of many times
John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
As is the judgment day.
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
2 Timothy 4
I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
Spoken of many times
John 11:24
Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
As is the judgment day.
John 12:48
He who rejects Me, and does not receive My words, has that which judges him— the word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.
2 Timothy 4
I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
And if you can receive it, that judgment day is of the living and the dead after the resurrection and includes the great white throne judgment
And after the Day of judgment, we get the new earth and new heavens.
And after the Day of judgment, we get the new earth and new heavens.
Rev 20
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
Now you and all the anti Darby obsessed followers can learn your deal is a lie, and has been for years.
It is you that invokes Darby and imagines you are actually addressing anything.
You are indirectly saying you base your erroneous doctrine on dead ancients.
You are basing YOUR ENTIRE ERRONEOUS doctrine on dead men.
It is even worse than that as you AUTHENTICATE your error, via dead men ,while unbelievably ascribing error to other dead men that you know nothing of.
I just laugh at that irony of ironies.
" My dead men , are superior to your dead me"
What a crock.
Your deal is debunked big time.
I also debunked the Margaret Mcdonald silly "smoking gun"
How? I read her writings.
Facts are your enemy
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
....your deal has always been omission and change of God's word.
Just keep believing lies.
Keep not studying your Bible.
Jesus is rebuking those posrtrib false teachers when he invokes Daniel.
You should consider verses that ruin your doctrine.
The AC kills all refusing the mark.
You really think Jesus is coming for you postrib with that 666 on your forehead?
What on Earth do you do with that verse in Rev 7, With the innumerable number of martyrs before the throne?
We see A. Literal sea of martyrs before the throne of God,in heaven,during the tribulation
It is amazing... how those fooled by men's false post-trib rapture theory try to cite all kinds of early historical proof of it being preached in the Church.
They cite those ancient of lesser illumination
as dirtiest and infallible.
...as does the catholic church.
Kills them all?
Maybe if he can catch and hold them. And they refuse the mark, but he has to catch them first.
Rev 14, after the mention of the mark of the beast, tells us of the patience of the remaining saints on the earth at that time
3 angels with 3 messages, why? well maybe there is no open evangelism at this time, I don't know. Work while it is day, night comes when no man can work.
But we do see some have survived and not been marked
Revelation 14
The Proclamations of Three Angels
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon[f] is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
12 Here is the [g]patience of the saints; here[h] are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying [i]to me, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ”
“Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”
So many people have been murdered by governments and their armies over many centuries. Numbers could approach a billion people over millennia of time. They have killed people actively and passively like through starvation. The English did that to the Irish during the great potato famine in the 1800's and 1 million died of starvation, while the English had food.
Truth7t7
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God's "Two Witnesses" Rule The World During The Future Great Tribulation
Many put the future (Man Of Sin) (The Beast) as the ruler of earth during the 3.5 year tribulation "wrong"!
It will be God's (Two Witnesses) that rule in bringing all plagues in torturing the evil world, a literal remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, God's in control!
Revelation 11:3-6 & 10KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
The Future (Two Witnesses) "All Plagues" As Often As They Will Representing "God"
Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
rev 20
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
3 angels with 3 messages, why? well maybe there is no open evangelism at this time, I don't know. Work while it is day, night comes when no man can work.
But we do see some have survived and not been marked
Revelation 14
rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
could Be some fall through the cracks.
however,Jesus is not having 1% of the church as the main harvest or bride
Again ,a few are saved during the tribulation, however if you keep reading you will see in verse 14, that there is the main harvest of the Jewish people
That Jewish gathering of revelation 14; 14 is the gathering of the Jews, which is after
the gathering of the gentile bride, that is depicted in matthew 25
And we don't know when the mark policies begin
Immediately?
the last year before his overthrow by God?
The last month?
Maybe the beast uses show trials. So they are held in custody for some time.
A huge number which no man can number, of all nations, are saved during the great tribulation, meaning a lot of people.
A Multitude from the Great Tribulation
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands, 10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!” 11 All the angels stood around the throne and the elders and the four living creatures, and fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying:“Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom,
Thanksgiving and honor and power and might,
Be to our God forever and ever.
Amen.”
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, [b]“Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
In other words we who remained alive.. See it ?
Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
In other words we who remained alive.. See it ?
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rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
no
the antichrist arrives as the white horse rider at the start of the tribulation period of seven years
he begins the mark in the forehead right away, of everyone on the face of the earth.
rev
6 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
the AC is in power at the same time
rev 11
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
that is not the 2 witnesses
rebuilder 454
Well-Known Member
rev 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
he makes war with the saints right away.
The mark IDENTIFIES them, ( by not having it)
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