The Smoke of their Torment Ascends Forever

[Taken]

see, this being the case -- that God's intention and will for man is that he be an eternal being -- it is hard to make the argument that He utterly annihilates any of them. that would be God defeated.

I would warn you to not confuse Gods Desire with Gods Will.
Gods Desire is ALL men will Freely Choose to believe IN Him.

Bottom line is...Few men will Freely Choose to believe IN Him.

The Confusion is....
WILL all men Believe...............answer.....Yes.
WILL all men Confess Belief.....answer......Yes.
WILL all men Be saved............answer......No.
WHY NOT?.............................answer......BECAUSE
Few men will CONFESS belief BEFORE THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.
...(by hearing, by believing, without seeing, by confession heartful belief)
Many men will CONFESS belief AFTER THEIR PHYSICAL DEATH.
...(by not seeing, by not believing, by being raised up bodily & soul, on judgement day, Seeing the Judge, then believing, then the evidence book of life is opened, their name blotted out for not believing while in their alive flesh, and their body and soul destroyed.)

is this a paradigm in which God annihilates anyone?

Annihilate means....utterly destroy.
Destroy means.......put an end to something.

God DOES destroy things.
God DOES destroy SIN.
God DOES destroy things that are infused with SIN.
The Earth was infused with SIN. God destroyed the Earth & its inhabitants with the Great Tribulation of Water.
God SHALL destroy the Earth & its inhabitants AGAIN with Great Tribulation of earthquakes, famine, wars, diseases, fire.

Physical things are MATTER.
Physical things are NOT created and made, and then become uncreated and unmade.
Physical things that ARE CHANGED, (by Gods power), become UNRECOGNIZABLE, from which they once appeared.

The Dust on the surface of the Earth, is Dry land, and was MADE into a SHAPE, a Form, by the Hand of God that God called a ManKIND of thing.
Form of (some) men, SHALL be return to it original Form of dust. Such is the dust that men will no longer recognize AS a formed thing, called a man.

 

[Taken]

it's because of that that i spend the energy trying to convince @Taken ...

Be blunt. Exactly what are you trying to convince me to believe?

 

[marks]

No it does not.

Mine does.

Much love!

 

[doxley]

I see plenty of evidence in the bible to call death death and life life, and resurrection Resurrection, and I'm not a JW or ever have been, I sometimes wonder what qualities of God those people are worshiping who believe he would keep his creatures alive only to suffer unspeakable torment for eternity. That isn't the God I worship, thank goodness.

 

[marks]

If in fact the dead continue in their death, separation from God, it may be that suffering remains the only remedy for sin, to cause it to cease. And failure to warn of hazard ahead is negligence. If God made men's souls to endure, then endure they shall, even in the state of separation/death, be it separation from the body, or separation from God. Being separated from God, they are dead in this world, even while connected to the body. Being separated from the body, they nonetheless stand before God to be judged, dead, I saw the dead, small and great . . .

And cast into the lake of fire is the Second Death, also called eternal torment, and we are warned.

Much love!

 

[kcnalp]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[amigo de christo]

Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.

Revelation 20:10 (NKJV)
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire will be filled with many who added too and took from that prophecy .
yes indeed . My advice is we simply read it and beleive it . AND instead of doing as many do and trying
to make GOD into something they see as evil , PREACH JESUS and those who do beleive will not go to this very real place of torment .
The problem again is many folks have learned a sensual love and they try and conform GOD to the image of the worlds love .
THUS they holler no hell , no lake of fire , GOD wont do that , say they . I SAY HE WILL DO AS HE SAID HE WILL DO .
THUS we must preach JESUS . CAUSE HE ALONE is the only way out of the wrath of GOD . YEP .
LET US PREACH JESUS . Yes indeed let us point to the glorious KING and not be as many who try and change the image of GOD
to make themselves feel better . ITS REAL EASY . IF ONE WANTS ETERNAL LIFE , RUN TO JESUS
AND YOU SHALL HAVE IT . OH let the KING be praised .

 

[amigo de christo]

LET the GLORIOUS LORD BE PRAISED . May everyone read revelation . THEN remember DONT ADD TO nor TAKE FROM IT .
JUST preach JESUS . Those who beleive will have eternal LIFE . Those who dont , well they are condmened already
for they have not believed the very testimony that GOD gave of HIS SON .
THERE IS GREAT HOPE IN CHRIST , SALVATION in the GLORIOUS LORD . THUS preach HIM and add not to nor take from THE ETERNAL TRUTH OF GOD .

 

[amigo de christo]

If in fact the dead continue in their death, separation from God, it may be that suffering remains the only remedy for sin, to cause it to cease. And failure to warn of hazard ahead is negligence. If God made men's souls to endure, then endure they shall, even in the state of separation/death, be it separation from the body, or separation from God. Being separated from God, they are dead in this world, even while connected to the body. Being separated from the body, they nonetheless stand before God to be judged, dead, I saw the dead, small and great . . .

And cast into the lake of fire is the Second Death, also called eternal torment, and we are warned.

Much love!

The problem is , and i am sure you will agree , is that too many people are trying to change the image o GOD
INSTEAD OF PREACHING JESUS . They give false hope .
Telling folks things that clearly add to and take from revelation and the words of GOD .
I say instead of trying to AC the lake of fire , PREACH JESUS because all who DO BELEIVE , well they wont ever see that place .
THE SOLUTION OF IT ALL , PREACH JESUS the ORIGINAL GOSPEL , FOR THAT ALONE , HE ALONE IS THE ONLY HOPE
the ONLY NAME given under heaven whereby one may have salvation , ETERNAL LIFE .
AND WE are running out of time . SO again i say , PREACH JESUS , PREACH THE GLORIOUS LORD
Teach and believe all things HE did command . FOR IN JESUS IS OUR HOPE . AND In no other name or religion is there any hope .
See how simple it is . THE early church knew this , ITS WHY THEY ACTUALLY got up and persauded men to BELIEVE IN JESUS .
THEY KNEW ALL HOPE was IN HIM and they knew if one rejected HIM it was the lake of fire .
SO they preached HOPE unto the peoples . THEY DId not try and downplay the wrath of GOD , they did not try to air condition the lake of fire
INSTEAD they knew it was real , and thus they preached unto the people , JESUS CHRIST . FOR IF WE DO BELEIVE
WE DONT END UP THERE , but WITH HIM FOREVER . NOW ISNT THAT TRUE HOPE . POINT TO JESUS . TO HE ALONE .
It even gives my soul JOY TO POINT TO HIM . YEAH . THE LORD IS FULL of mercy and desires not the death of the wicked
but rathe they repent and beleive in CHRIST so as they would have eternal life . JESUS IS THE ANSWER . HE is who we must tell the peoples about ,.

 

[n2thelight]

Mine does.

Much love!

That means something ain't right, so do show where

 

[n2thelight]

I see plenty of evidence in the bible to call death death and life life, and resurrection Resurrection, and I'm not a JW or ever have been, I sometimes wonder what qualities of God those people are worshiping who believe he would keep his creatures alive only to suffer unspeakable torment for eternity. That isn't the God I worship, thank goodness.

Thank you ,as even the lake of fire itself will be gone...I don't know what God they serve either

 

[n2thelight]

If in fact the dead continue in their death, separation from God, it may be that suffering remains the only remedy for sin, to cause it to cease. And failure to warn of hazard ahead is negligence. If God made men's souls to endure, then endure they shall, even in the state of separation/death, be it separation from the body, or separation from God. Being separated from God, they are dead in this world, even while connected to the body. Being separated from the body, they nonetheless stand before God to be judged, dead, I saw the dead, small and great . . .

And cast into the lake of fire is the Second Death, also called eternal torment, and we are warned.

Much love!

The 2nd death is just what it says death .Does the flesh die or is it in eternal torment ?

 

[Phoneman777]

these diverse options give two immediately divergent implications:

1. the Bible is true
2. the Bible lies

Saul went there in disguise.
does the scripture still call him Saul?

i don't care if you cite 100 verses with the implication that they make the Bible untrue.
the fact will be that you have misinterpreted all 100 of them.


it is a common, running theme with you that, for the sake of your private interpretations, you claim the Author of scripture to be a liar.

Job told the truth when he said the dead "return no more to his house". Therefore, the spirit which appeared to Saul could never have been Samuel.

 

[Phoneman777]

עֶשְׁתֹּנָה is dialogismos in Greek, per LXX. it only appears in the OT once.
it doesn't pertain to basic existence of thought but to specific reasoning, intentions, plans, judgements, disputation, deliberation etc.
if i said 'i don't have any dialogismos' i wouldn't be saying that my consciousness does not exist; i would be saying that i don't have any plans; i don't have an opinion on the matter, i don't have a thought-out, logical strategy in mind.

Psalm 146 is not teaching us that God annihilates all souls. it is telling us do not put our trust in men ((like phone-person)); when phone-person's spirit departs from his body then all his plans and intentions come to naught. he is no longer on earth in order to carry any of them out.
this is borne out in Luke 16 -- the rich man certainly continues to exist and have consciousness ((unless you think Jesus teaches lying doctrines of demons? hmm?)), but he cannot act among the living, does not have any influence on them, and cannot interact with them. so he asks Abraham that Lazarus be sent back -- to be resurrected. the rich man still has dialogismos, but they are ruined and impotent and brought to nothing - in fact he comes up with a whole new dialogismos he never had on earth: that of sending Lazarus back to his brothers. from the point of view of the living brothers of the rich fool, in particular, all that wicked man's dialogismos are as much as vanished.


but let's follow his dialogismos through to its logical end as an illustrative example:
he believes Jesus was annihilated when He died. therefore, according to his private interpretation, he also believes that all of Jesus's dialogismos were annihilated at the cross.
so if Psalm 146 is telling us not to put our trust in the dialogismos of men because when their spirit departs, their dialogismos perishes, then phone-person's implication is that we should neither put our trust in Jesus because Jesus, being a man, no longer exists but is annihilated, and all of the plans of Jesus are destroyed.
clearly rubbish, right?

but what is different? why can we trust Jesus, but not trust phone-person? ((as an example))
straightforward: Christ is God. Jesus is the physical manifestation of God, in the flesh. He does not cease to exist, even if He dies, He raises Himself again. no one takes His life - He lays it down, and He picks it up again. His will stands forever; His dialogismos will never pass away, even when heaven and earth pass away.
this is the difference. this is why our Lord is worthy of our trust but phone-person, or the wicked rich man in Luke 16 ((just as a random example)) is not.

Well, look here: the HEBREW word for "thoughts":

עֶשְׁתֹּנָה ʻeshtônâh, esh-to-naw'; from H6245; thinking:—thought.

Well, look at that! The word means "thoughts".

His "thoughts" perish...he CEASES TO THINK. When a person dies, he ceases to think, feel, know, plan, praise God, return to his house, or have anything to do under this sun.

That's why it couldn't have been "Samuel" that appeared to Saul - Samuel, being dead, will never have anything else to do with anything under this sun.

 

[Phoneman777]

The Body SHALL Die, know nothing.
The Living soul SHALL depart the dying body.
The Saved Living soul, rises up to Heaven to wait Judgement.
The UnSaved Living soul, is sent to Hell to wait Judgement.
The Born Again spirit SHALL depart the dying body.
The Born Again spirit Shall rise up to Heaven to wait Judgement.
The natural spirit of man (NOT born again) shall die with it’s body, know nothing.

All bodily flesh sins. All souls in men sins. All natural spirit of men sins.
Sin is AGAINST GOD.
The Body of Flesh is Born AGAINST God...because a newborn IS NOT WITH God.
The soul in the Flesh is Born AGAINST God....because a newborn IS NOT WITH God.
The natural spirit of man, in a man, IS that individuals Truth in his Heart...And IS AGAINST God....because a newborn IS NOT WITH God.

Scripture IS CLEAR....ANYONE NOT WITH GOD...IS AGAINST God.
Matt 12:
[30] He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Luke.11
[23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

* As the infant grows, begins hearing, learning, following along what their adult care taker says, believes, does.
* As they become adults, THEY become accountable for what they hear, learn, Freely choose, believe, and do.

God has Offered a Precise WAY to BECOME:
Forgiven their SINS AGAINST God, Willing LAY DOWN their own Life for their Belief IN the Lord God Almighty, (crucified WITH Christ), their soul Saved (ie restored), their spirit Quickened (born again), the Spirit of God enter “IN” them and KEEP them, “in belief, soul saved, spirit alive and Forever “WITH” God; Kept BY His Power....Never Again possible to Sin AGAINST God.

If all those verses which say the dead know not, feel not, praise not, plan not, remember not, and don't have anything to do with anything under the sun...refer to the body alone, then God must think we're braindead stupid. What person who looks at a dead body doesn't immediately know there's nothing going on in the head of it? Yes, He must think we're pretty stupid.

OR..........MAYBE THE SERPENT'S LIE WHICH HAS FORMED THE FOUNDATION OF EVERY HEATHEN RELIGION - "YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE" - PROMPTED GOD TO REVEAL THE TRUTH ABOUT DEATH TO US IN THE BIBLE BY EMPHASIZING WHAT HE MEANT WHEN HE SAID WE WOULD SURELY DIE - WHICH EMPHASIS IS MADE BY ALL THOSE VERSES ABOUT NOT KNOWING, NOT REMEMBERING, NOT PLANNING, ETC.

Now, which seems the more reasonable motive? Humanity is totally stupid, or humanity was satanically deceived?

 

[Phoneman777]

Did you ever really answer me, Did they in FACT die on that very day?

Much love!

Sure, they died spiritually, but what else happened that day which prevented the immediate physical death sentence of Adam and Eve?

Can you think of anything? Hint: IT'S THE FOUNDATION OF THE GOSPEL

 

[Phoneman777]

For one thing, you are defining a level of ignorance, and arguing that we should just go with whatever we conclude. And Hypotheticals aren't real, and are like the water from a spigot, you can turn it and change it,

What? No, what I'm doing is establishing a Biblical basis for interpretation which the entire Christian world almost seems to want to ignore...GENESIS 2:7 KJV.

The fact is, wouldn't you, having read the account of the witch of Endor, and nothing else in the Bible, wouldn't you conclude that physical death is not the end of the man?

Of course...which is precisely why we read the ALL the verses that have impact on a subject. Doing so leads to only one conclusion: death is the opposite of life, not the continuation thereof.

You've said, "This verse teaches the Soul comes into existence as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life." The fact is, it does not. You may infer that so from the verse. You may even claim the verse implies it. But no, it does not actually teach that.

You're denying Scripture by this. Please read Genesis 2:7 KLV and tell me if the living Soul does not begin to exist as a consequence of the union of the Body and the Breath of Life.

What this historical narrative verse does is it tells us how Jesus made the first man, how He breathed into him, making him a living creature, imbued with the Image of God.

It reminds me of so much later, Jesus breathed into them, "Receive ye the Holy Spirit!" And they were embued with new life. But does that teach how it is for everyone who comes to new life in Christ?

Much love!

And how did He create that first living Soul? By combining the Breath of Life with the Body of Adam, and "dust of the ground became a living soul".

 

[Phoneman777]

Option 1, the Bible is accurate and true.
Option 2, the Bible is inaccurate, and not true.

I'm going with option one, regardless of you argument of why this passage is not to be believed. It's historical narrative, the same type of writing that tells us Jesus died and rose again.

Just like Jesus telling the Saducees, God is the God of Abraham, the God of the living, therefore Abraham lives.

True harmony is when you can put ALL the passages together and let them stand in what they are truly saying.

Much love!

By you choosing to make "Samuel" the Samuel of Scripture, you are calling Job and Solomon liars. Both said dead Samuel cannot return to the living, nor have anything to do with anything under the sun.

 

[Phoneman777]

Appeal to authority, and simply maligning the doctrine you oppose.

So there ya go. I think we've concluded our arguments.

Much love!

Good, and I think I've shown you full well that by making "God of the living" teach that the dead go to heaven before the resurrection, Christ's argument with which He proves the resurrection is stolen from Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

from the narrative of people like @Aunty Jane and @Phoneman777 and @quietthinker and all the nutso JW's creeping around this place.


theorems are proven or disproven at their extrema.

The nutjobs are the ones who take the strongest words the Greek tongue possesses which indicate "destroy" and "destruction" and turn them into "maintain an everlasting but wretched existence".

"Destroy both body and soul in hell" means "still there and conscious and writhing in agony"? Preposterous.

Even scholars who agree with your "eternal torment" bulldookey but refuse to be dishonest admit that "leave them neither root nor branch" is a proverbial expression for "total and complete destruction". Nothing left. All gone. In other words, ANNIHILATION.