The Study and Interpret the Bible

[Enoch111]

Nothing wrong in using secondary sources Enoch, and I am not being argumentative with you.

Legitimate Bible study tools are fine, provided that they are secondary.

 

[Johann]

Legitimate Bible study tools are fine, provided that they are secondary.

Let me illustrate, if you are in a debate, or conversation with a Jew, or a Muslim, how are you going to show them, from the Bereeshit, and Bereeshit only, that Jesus is the Christ?
J.

 

[Enoch111]

Let me illustrate, if you are in a debate, or conversation with a Jew, or a Muslim, how are you going to show them, from the Bereeshit, and Bereeshit only, that Jesus is the Christ?

Who says that we are to limit our response to just one book of the Bible?

 

[Johann]

Okay - I will also review this second video. Perhaps it will provide additional information to what I am currently gathering.

Mr. Bowman all you have to do is peruse Outreach for Judaism on Youtube or Category: Adding Or Subtracting From Torah

I just converse with a member by using secondary sources and said to him if he was in a conversation with a Jewish brother or a Muslim, how is he going to show them, from the Old Covenant, that Jesus is the Christ?
But, Mr. Bowman, you need to be prayed up, asking our Lord for guidance and there is a warfare going on and should you wish, I will assist in any way I can.
Thank you for the time in listening and probably making notes.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

 

[Johann]

Who says that we are to limit our response to just one book of the Bible?

Our Orthodox Rabbi's and Immams brother, not only one book, how are you going to show them that Jesus is the Christ in the Old Testament, and Old Testament only?
But I don't expect you to share a burning desire that I have since this is a monumental task and have personally watched hundreds of discussions and heated debates against anything Christian or Christianity.
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

Our Orthodox Rabbi's and Immams brother, not only one book, how are you going to show them that Jesus is the Christ in the Old Testament, and Old Testament only?
But I don't expect you to share a burning desire that I have since this is a monumental task and have personally watched hundreds of discussions and heated debates against anything Christian or Christianity.
J.

Everyone has their area of influence and circle of ministry they are in with sharing the gospel . Ours is different. It’s like Paul primary was to the Gentiles no so with the other disciples. This seems to be a burden God has placed on your heart . Others it might be the homeless , some counter cult ministries , some atheists , some with those in the church , etc

 

[Johann]

Everyone has their area of influence and circle of ministry they are in with sharing the gospel . Ours is different. It’s like Paul primary was to the Gentiles no so with the other disciples. This seems to be a burden God has placed on your heart . Others it might be the homeless , some counter cult ministries , some atheists , some with those in the church , etc

I understand Christophany.
J.

 

[ChristisGod]

I understand Christophany.
J.

BTW I apologize for coming across with you yesterday in attack mode. Please forgive me for being unkind to you .

 

[AW Bowman]

My time over the next few days is rather commuted, but I will attempt to post a response by tomorrow evening. Great videos, however. Yet, not convinced that I should turn away from being a disciple of Yeshua HaMashiah (Jesus the Christ).

 

[Jay Ross]

A Follow up -
Do you have some Bible package software?

I have found these "free" packages helpful: www.Theword.net, www.BibleAnalyzer.com, and www.blueletterbible.org to be excellent study resources. Some additional modules are available, both free and some with a charge. Hope these help.

The general problem with some of the available bible study packages is that often the user uses the packages outside of their limitations.

For example, one package gives the Root word and not also the actual word in either the Hebrew or Greek texts. What this lead to with this particular person was that he assumed that every occurrence of the Root word within the text had the same meaning because he was not shown the variation in the Hebrew or Greek text words which were derived from the Hebrew or Greek Root word.

When I was designing the data transmission of utility data, a unique form of language transmission, I quickly came to the understanding that for the successful transmission of the data, the recipient of the data had to come to the same understanding, from the data provided for their use, as the first person who had recorded the data in his field notes. The information of what was being transmitted in the digital data was the story of how the utility was actually laid, where it was actually laid with respect to the available features that were available at the time from which the utility was referenced. The context of the person's understanding of the transmitted utility data had to come to the same contextual understanding as the person who was recording the data.

It can get very complicated to establish the contextual data that is needed to establish where the utility may have been laid as the references that the utility was laid in reference with may no longer exist many years down the track.

The other issue is that the Metadata for both the producer of the utility data and the recipient of the utility data has to be the same.

When mapping the utility data, draftsmen's licence is often required to exaggerate the graphical representation of where the utility has been laid so that the correct understanding can be perceived within the graphic.

Scripture is also the same. The representation of the record of God's interactions with mankind can become lost in the story telling with the wrong references and understanding clouding the actual reality.

There is so much overburden or unreliable commentary available that the story gets lost in the forced commentary that the original message gets lost in the flowery eloquence of the later writers such that we cannot distinguish/see the tree because of the uncontrolled forest that has flourished around that particular tree that has become lost, so to speak, within the created forest of ideas.

The trick is to be able to construct the same contextual understanding within our present language as was embedded originally within the original language used.

Shalom

 

[Johann]

BTW I apologize for coming across with you yesterday in attack mode. Please forgive for for being unkind to you .

It was my fault, all forgiven brother.
J.

 

[Enoch111]

Our Orthodox Rabbi's and Immams brother, not only one book, how are you going to show them that Jesus is the Christ in the Old Testament, and Old Testament only?

I already gave you a string of references from the book of Isaiah. And Isaiah by itself will reveal Christ to any sincere person. Think of that Ethiopian reading Isaiah and getting saved. Isaiah will also reveal the deity of Christ and the Holy Trinity.

 

[Bob Estey]

Here is a quick outline of the requirements for effectively studying and interpreting the Bible:

First, the Scriptures, as inspired by the Ru’ach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), were NOT written to the spiritual elite, the Doctors of the Law, seminary graduates or to some selected religious group(s). No, what is recorded in the scriptures were given according to the will of God for His people – all of His people, both the chosen, the adopted, and grafted in. The scriptures are also made available (even in the ancient days) to the Goyim (nations, the “strangers” among the people, the “God Fearers), for those willing to accept them. That is, God’s word was given into the world for the world and everyone in it. It is God’s personal commentary concerning Himself, His nature and His purpose in creation. The Hebrew people were finally chosen by the sovereign God to be the vehicle by which He would again become known to the world, the chosen people.

The result being that if one desires to learn of the “God of the Jews”, the knowledge is freely available, even in poorly written translations. Any serious translation of the holy language into any known human language contains sufficient information to provide the path to reconciliation between the seeker of God’s face and God Himself. Anyone with a working understanding of their own native language can achieve sufficient knowledge to secure their salvation by a simple reading of the scriptures – and in their own language

Now, this is where things start to get a little sticky.

Second: In order to mature in one’s walk with the creator of the universe, one must also study the scriptures to show themselves approved before God. This means that one must come to an understanding of what God expects, even demands, of His children. Then comes the really hard part: The voluntary surrendering all of one’s self to the Master of Creation, just like a small child who surrenders to the authority of their parents.

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, since you know that we will be judged more severely. Ya’akov (James) 3:1 [CJB]

But the aim of our instruction is love that comes from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith. Some have strayed from these and turned away to empty discussion. They want to be teachers of the law (Torah), but they do not understand what they are saying or the things they insist on so confidently. But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately 1Timothy 5-8 [NET]

These two passages, taken in their original context, should be enough to give pause to anyone who would seek to elevate themselves above their brethren and receive the admiration of men.

While everyone should become teachers at some level (Heb 5:12-14), we are admonished not to remain as infants but to grow, mature, and to bear fruit in the kingdom. But to become “teachers of the Tanakh (Bible)”, we move into another realm of responsibility and accountability.

When a teacher proclaims that their knowledge, understanding and interpretation (application) of scripture is right before God, then those of lesser knowledge and understanding will accept the words of their “teacher”. If the teacher is in error, and his/her students act upon his teaching, then the student is in as much error as his teacher. Should a student fall into sin, or worse, as the result of the teaching he has received, then the blood/soul of that student is on the teacher’s hands. What if there is a generation of students? The teacher shall surely answer for his folly.

So, what is to done? Who is to teach, what is he to teach, and to whom?

Third: For those who have not come into a mature knowledge of God’s word, they may still teach others. One can, and should, share their testimony, what the Spirit of God has accomplished in their life. They can share the scripture that has impacted their life and how that was accomplished. As one matures in their knowledge and understanding they are to continue to share that which they have become confident. When placed in a position of “teacher” (children’s ministry, adult classes, etc.), one of the common answers to questions that one might expect you to give is, “I don’t know.” Or, “I am not sure, but I think …” Or some other acknowledgement that no, you do not have all of the answers, but you are willing to go study, find the answers, and will share what you learn. Also, to encourage the students to go and study for themselves and to share what it is they have learned!

Most of us are completely enmeshed in our Western, Greek centered worldview which results in a very serious limitation on our ability to understand the fullness of what our Lord is revealing to His children. It can be likened to a parent instructing their child not to go into the street. The child learns, usually with some pain, not to disobey the parent. As the child matures, they begin to learn that playing in the street can result in being injured by the traffic. Eventually the concept of nonexistence, death, as a real and present danger of being in the street is understood. The result is usually as one matures the dangerous nature of traffic is understood and what one must be aware of and what steps are necessary for “safe” travel on the streets. While this is the limit of our Greek thinking application, it still works enough for the majority of the population; it satisfies most of their perceived wants and needs.

However, there is a great deal further one can go in understanding and applying the concepts and precepts of ground transportation systems to one’s life.

To gain a greater appreciation of transportation system, their purpose, hazards and benefits, one must manifestly alter their view of traffic and transportation systems. To move from being a user of streets and the manner and modes of transportation one may choose from, to one who designs, engineer and construct streets, over and under passes, railroad crossings, etc. Streets and traffic become interlocking and interdependent systems. One must by necessity encounter physics, chemistry, mathematics, human psychology and physical limitations, design constraints, etc. etc. One’s view becomes more complex as it takes in the greater view of how one part of our society interacts with all of the other parts of our civilization. The street in front of my house is no longer a single focus, stand-a-lone object, but part of a whole that I do not fully understand. We have metaphorically moved from our Greek mindset to the Hebrew mindset.

Third: There are a few things to keep in the back of one’s mind as they peruse the scriptures.

- The Bible is a collection of Hebrew books, written by and for Israelites, not the Goyim (gentiles), with a few notable exceptions, for example the books of Luke and Acts, which were written to Theophilus, who, like Cornelius, may have been a “God Fearer” (Greek thinking God Fearer).

- There is no such thing as a perfect translation of the Holy Scriptures into English, or into any other language.

- A commentary is just one person’s interpretation of scripture. When you preach or teach the word of God you are adding your own personal commentary to the ever-growing collection.

- Your understanding of scripture will never be complete (Tamam, perfect), so be open to correction and instruction.

- If you ever get to the point where you actually understand what it is you think you know, you will be a spiritual giant.

- Do not fall into the trap of reading the scriptures as though they were written to you. They’re not! Even so, they were written with you in mind (for you).

- Do not search the scriptures to support your doctrines, rather, search the scriptures for doctrines to support.

I will be posting my approach to studying and interpreting scripture. Not for acceptance, rather as points of debarkation into discussions concerning the various subjects that may arise.

May all of our studies be fruitful.

It would seem to me the purpose of the Bible is to introduce us to God. Some will read the Bible once and catch on. Some can spend a lifetime reading it and not catch on.

 

[Johann]

I would say that he wrote to both Jewish and Gentile Christians, but the epistle to the Hebrews was primarily for Hebrew Christians who were vacillating between Moses and Christ. Many of the churches began through Paul's preaching in the Jewish synagogues of the Roman empire. However, ultimately, the bulk of the Jews rejected Christ and the Church is now primarily a Gentile Church.

Correct Enoch.
J.

 

[AW Bowman]

Mr. Bowman all you have to do is peruse Outreach for Judaism on Youtube or Category: Adding Or Subtracting From Torah

I just converse with a member by using secondary sources and said to him if he was in a conversation with a Jewish brother or a Muslim, how is he going to show them, from the Old Covenant, that Jesus is the Christ?
But, Mr. Bowman, you need to be prayed up, asking our Lord for guidance and there is a warfare going on and should you wish, I will assist in any way I can.
Thank you for the time in listening and probably making notes.
Shalom to you and family.
Johann.

Thank you. I never turn down offers for assistance!

 

[AW Bowman]

The general problem with some of the available bible study packages is that often the user uses the packages outside of their limitations.

For example, one package gives the Root word and not also the actual word in either the Hebrew or Greek texts. What this lead to with this particular person was that he assumed that every occurrence of the Root word within the text had the same meaning because he was not shown the variation in the Hebrew or Greek text words which were derived from the Hebrew or Greek Root word.

When I was designing the data transmission of utility data, a unique form of language transmission, I quickly came to the understanding that for the successful transmission of the data, the recipient of the data had to come to the same understanding, from the data provided for their use, as the first person who had recorded the data in his field notes. The information of what was being transmitted in the digital data was the story of how the utility was actually laid, where it was actually laid with respect to the available features that were available at the time from which the utility was referenced. The context of the person's understanding of the transmitted utility data had to come to the same contextual understanding as the person who was recording the data.

It can get very complicated to establish the contextual data that is needed to establish where the utility may have been laid as the references that the utility was laid in reference with may no longer exist many years down the track.

The other issue is that the Metadata for both the producer of the utility data and the recipient of the utility data has to be the same.

When mapping the utility data, draftsmen's licence is often required to exaggerate the graphical representation of where the utility has been laid so that the correct understanding can be perceived within the graphic.

Scripture is also the same. The representation of the record of God's interactions with mankind can become lost in the story telling with the wrong references and understanding clouding the actual reality.

There is so much overburden or unreliable commentary available that the story gets lost in the forced commentary that the original message gets lost in the flowery eloquence of the later writers such that we cannot distinguish/see the tree because of the uncontrolled forest that has flourished around that particular tree that has become lost, so to speak, within the created forest of ideas.

The trick is to be able to construct the same contextual understanding within our present language as was embedded originally within the original language used.

Shalom

A most excellent analyses.

 

[AW Bowman]

The bane of time! /sigh/

I still have to go through the Q&A section of the second video. I have completed my review of the first video.

I will work on getting my evaluation posted by this evening.

 

[Johann]

The bane of time! /sigh/

I still have to go through the Q&A section of the second video. I have completed my review of the first video.

I will work on getting my evaluation posted by this evening.

Mr. Bowman, at the moment I am going through the Messianic prophecies using the OJB version in conjunction with my KJV, RV...word for word in Hebrew, especially the morphology, a wealth of information.
I have gone online to see if there are any negative reviews on the Orthodox Jewish Bible, not the JPS by Mr. Stern.


Zec 4:12 And I asked again, and said unto him, What are these two branches of the zeytim which through the two golden sprouts pour the gold-colored oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, Lo (no), adoni.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two bnei hayitzhar (sons of oil), that stand by Adon Kol HaA'retz [T.N. See Malachi 3:1 where Moshiach is referred to similarly].
OJB
I also used the Drash, Pardes, Sod and Remez hermeneutical approach.

I have seen only one negative review on this bible from Phillip Goble, just nitpicking.

Your review on this particular Bible would be most appreciated.
Johann.

 

[AW Bowman]

Mr. Bowman, at the moment I am going through the Messianic prophecies using the OJB version in conjunction with my KJV, RV...word for word in Hebrew, especially the morphology, a wealth of information.
I have gone online to see if there are any negative reviews on the Orthodox Jewish Bible, not the JPS by Mr. Stern.


Zec 4:12 And I asked again, and said unto him, What are these two branches of the zeytim which through the two golden sprouts pour the gold-colored oil out of themselves?
Zec 4:13 And he answered me and said, Knowest thou not what these be? And I said, Lo (no), adoni.
Zec 4:14 Then said he, These are the two bnei hayitzhar (sons of oil), that stand by Adon Kol HaA'retz [T.N. See Malachi 3:1 where Moshiach is referred to similarly].
OJB
I also used the Drash, Pardes, Sod and Remez hermeneutical approach.

I have seen only one negative review on this bible from Phillip Goble, just nitpicking.

Your review on this particular Bible would be most appreciated.
Johann.

LOL not problem, nitpicking is acceptable! One thing, the I think you mis-identified the JPS. The JPS Bible is by the Jewish Publication Society, a translation of the Tanakh only. Stern's translation is the CJB. I wish all my "mistkes" were so minor.

 

[Johann]

LOL o problem, nitpicking is acceptable! One thing, the I think you mis-identified the JPS. The JPS Bible is by the Jewish Publication Society, a translation of the Tanakh only. Stern's translation is the CJB. I wish all my "mistkes" were so minor.

A reminder, Mr. Bowman, English is not my first language and still awaiting a reply on the OJB by Phillip
Personally, I don't like the CJB.
J.