The thief on the cross !?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Mormons, JW's, 7th Day Adventist, preach and teach another Jesus than what is found in the Holy Bible.

The gospel according to Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, And Ellen G. White

There are many that are leaning upon their own understanding, I don't believe the outcome will be fruitful.

I don't believe in remaining silent for the sake of false harmony, this I believe will be the future religion of the "Antichrist"

I don't believe in remaining silent either, I believe people have the right to disagree, but to judge as you do as though you are some infallible person and can judge like that.

 

[Truth7t7]

I don't believe in remaining silent either, I believe people have the right to disagree, but to judge as you do as though you are some infallible person and can judge like that.

Judge what?

Your claims are false Barney, God's word judges.

I post the truth of God's word, and you claim I'm the judge?

Are you unaware of what the Holy Bible is intended to be used for, read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 below.

An individual comes along and teaches man "Ceases To Exist" upon death?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism, And Jehovah's Witnesses.

Barney you know well this statement is untrue, as Luke 16:21-30, Matthew 10:28 teaches so, also many other scripture references.​

God's Word's Judge!

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[bbyrd009]

Mormons, JW's, 7th Day Adventist, preach and teach another Jesus than what is found in the Holy Bible.

so you say, but that is strictly a pov, not a truth; same as "Holy Bible." See, wadr you can say that all you like, but it is not truth. It is strictly an uninformed belief that you have, given to you by someone else, just like your definition of Jesus.

which is fine ok, that is your belief. Just understand that they are not truths, much less Absolute Truths
they are strictly you judging them
and you cannot back any of this up with Scripture i don't think

 

[bbyrd009]

I post the truth of God's word, and you claim I'm the judge?

and he is correct imo, with all due respect
disregarding that the Book is not the Word anyway

 

[Truth7t7]

and he is correct imo, with all due respect
disregarding that the Book is not the Word anyway

The Holy Bible Is Not God's Words Anyway?

Let God Be True, His Word Will Judge!

John 12:48KJV
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:21KJV
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Holy Bible Is Not God's Words Anyway?

the Bible is not Holy, and It is not God's Word, correct
these would all describe the Book of Truth, which we cannot access
generally speaking anyway

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God

not just the Bible iow, but i certainly agree to this
the Bible was God~Breathed, and is and does what It advertises, sure

In the Beginning was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God

 

[Truth7t7]

the Bible is not Holy, and It is not God's Word, correct

God's Bible Is Holy And True, It Contains God's Eternal Words!

I Will Refrain From Further Response With You In This Thread.

Romans 16:17KJV
Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.

John 12:48KJV
He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Peter 1:21KJV
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

 

[amadeus]

Mormons, JW's, 7th Day Adventist, preach and teach another Jesus than what is found in the Holy Bible.

The gospel according to Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, And Ellen G. White

There are many that are leaning upon their own understanding, I don't believe the outcome will be fruitful.

I don't believe in remaining silent for the sake of false harmony, this I believe will be the future religion of the "Antichrist"

Do we not live by faith rather than by knowledge?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

Do you know that you are right in every point of your doctrines or do you only believe that you?

"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." Prov 16:2

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Are we who believe in the Lord Jesus and in the sacrifices that he made not still growing? Are we not growing because in some places we are still immature or still only partaking of milk or even wrong in some places? Why is that which is applicable to us not applicable to the individual Mormons or JWs or SDA believers? You may be able to tear apart the doctrines held by the leadership or the organization of each of those groups, but is your own assessment of what truth is completely flawless? Have you already seen God face to face? If you have not, how can you be certain that each and every person in those groups is seeing God less clearer than you are?

When the Apostle Paul wrote the following words did he not include himself in the "we"?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Are you seeing the truth more completely and correctly than did the apostle Paul at the time he wrote those words?

 

[Stranger]

First of all no one said they did not appreciate the work translators did in attempting to divide the scriptures into the various chapters, verses and etc. nor their work at adding proper grammar, punctuation and such, why you jumped to this conclusion so fast I don’t know.

I agree that many modern translations are bad, too much effort has been made to make the scriptures easy to read (such as the NIV version) at the expense of accuracy.

As for the King James Version of the bible, or the Authorized Version, this was published in 1611. In the year 1604, forty-seven persons learned in the languages were appointed to revise the translation then in use. They were ordered to use the Bishop’s Bible as the basis of the new version, and to alter it as little as the original would allow; but if the prior translations of Tyndale, Coverdale, Matthew, Cranmer or Whitechurch, and the Geneva editors agreed better with the text, to adopt the same.

This translation was perhaps the best that could be made at the time, and if it had not been published by kingly authority, it would not now be venerated by English and American Protestants, as though it had come direct from God.

It has been convicted of containing over 20,000 errors. Nearly 700 Greek MSS. are now known, and some of them very ancient; whereas the translators of the common version had only the advantage of some 8 MSS. none of which was earlier than the tenth century. Since 1611, many translations of both Old and New Testaments, and portions of the same, have been published.

There are no manuscripts earlier than the fourth century, none whatever. The two oldest manuscripts known to the world containing the Greek Testament to which dates from the age of Eusebius and Constantine are the Sinaitic (first discovered by Tischendorf in 1859, and published in 1862), containing all the twenty-seven books and the Vatican, which at one time was probably likewise complete, although the last chapters of Hebrews (from Heb.11:14), the Pastoral Epistles, Philemon, and Revelation are lost. These two oldest manuscripts are recognized by all scholars throughout the world as the most authentic and most reliable of manuscripts of the New Testament extant.

Neither of which were used in the making up of the Common Version, the King James translation.

There is wisdom in the Proverb which says, that dead flies cause precious ointment to stink. This is particularly true in respect to the Bible. It is a precious ointment of sweet odor, but certain “flies” have gotten into it whose corruptions have destroyed the perfume of the Divine records in the estimation of many—an intelligent and growing number. Some of these “dead flies” were mistranslations; some of them misinterpretations, and some of them were interpolations—unauthorized additions to the Scriptures as originally written.

I actually use the NKJ version for most of my studies, however when I want to double check a questionable text I refer to Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible (1872-1902) and or the Emphatic Diaglott which is based on the Vatican No.1209 MSS one of the oldest and most reliable MSS.

You brought it up. Don't blame me.

Trust whatever translation you like. But, remove the vowels, and punctuation first, along with the chapters and verses, etc. etc. Since you say they should not be there.

Stranger

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Judge what?

Your claims are false Barney, God's word judges.

I post the truth of God's word, and you claim I'm the judge?

Are you unaware of what the Holy Bible is intended to be used for, read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 below.

An individual comes along and teaches man "Ceases To Exist" upon death?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism, And Jehovah's Witnesses.

Barney you know well this statement is untrue, as Luke 16:21-30, Matthew 10:28 teaches so, also many other scripture references.​

God's Word's Judge!

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

2 Tim.3:16-17 isn't to be used in a way that is persecutive or judgemental as your trying to do. Like I said you can disagree without being persecutive or judgemental. Nothing wrong with you exercising your right to disagree.

Matthew 10:28 here again the scriptures tell you to stand your ground on what God word has convinced you to believe is the truth about God and his kingdom, but you can do that without being persecutive or judgemental.

The statement: "a man comes along and teaches a man ceases to exist at death" the people who believe this are simply believing that this is the definition of death. You don't have to believe this definition of death,you can express your belief your definition of death but there again you can do that without being persecutive or judgemental.

I understand that you truly believe that you are posting the truth of God word, and you have every right to post what you believe to be the truth of God word, but everyone else truly believes that too. Now I understand that everyone can't be right, that somebody is wrong,but should we say that someone is wrong in a persecutive or judgemental way.

 

[bbyrd009]

God's Bible Is Holy

so Quote it then, i mean you are the literalist after all right

I Will Refrain From Further Response With You In This Thread.

ok well that's up to you; the truth does not care what either one of us thinks i guess. No hard feelings i hope

 

[bbyrd009]

God's Word's Judge!

in that case you will not prevail here wadr.

Quote "the Bible is the Word" for us too if you don't mind, just so we can get this all cleared up

 

[bbyrd009]

Christ is Word, God is Word, Spirit and Gospel are Word, and there might be another if you go look, but it won't be Bible, or Scripture, or even Writ or writings. Weird but true. The diff in Holy and Inspired maybe
Law is holy though

 

[Harvest 1874]

Mormons, JW's, 7th Day Adventist, preach and teach another Jesus than what is found in the Holy Bible.

The gospel according to Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russel, And Ellen G. White

There are many that are leaning upon their own understanding, I don't believe the outcome will be fruitful.

I don't believe in remaining silent for the sake of false harmony, this I believe will be the future religion of the "Antichrist"

I love it when people talk about things which it is evident they know nothing about it's a quick gauge in determining just how knowledgeable they truly are.

First of all Charles Taze Russell was not the founder of the JW's nor do they follow his teachings. Pastor Russel died in 1916 and shortly thereafter Judge Rutherford took over the organization and preceded to throw out all of Pastor Russell's writings replacing them with his own. As for the Jehovah's Witnesses they didn't even exist as an organization until 1931.

Bible Students today still hold to the original teachings of the Pastor, JW's do not, yes its true they still retain some of the basic teachings, but for the most part they are completely different.

Regardless of this I've had opportunity to examine some of the teachings of the JW's and I don't see any evidence of them teaching another Jesus, another gospel perhaps, but not much different from how the rest of the various sects have distorted the truth.

If you believe they teach another Jesus please explain it to the rest of us, being how your so knowledgeable concerning their teachings.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Judge what?

Your claims are false Barney, God's word judges.

I post the truth of God's word, and you claim I'm the judge?

Are you unaware of what the Holy Bible is intended to be used for, read 2 Timothy 3:16-17 below.

An individual comes along and teaches man "Ceases To Exist" upon death?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism, And Jehovah's Witnesses.

Barney you know well this statement is untrue, as Luke 16:21-30, Matthew 10:28 teaches so, also many other scripture references.​

God's Word's Judge!

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

You my friend have fallen for Satan first lie, that "thou shall not surely die", you're under the erroneous impression that when a man dies it is only his body that dies, that the soul somehow keeps on existing that it is some separate entity inhabiting the body.

A soul is a combination of organism and the breath of life, the two together make a soul, remove either one and the soul ceases to be.

God did not say "the body that sins it shall die", he said "the soul that sins it shall die". To die is to cease to live, that is unless you believe Satan's lie.

 

[bbyrd009]

God's Bible Is Holy And True, It Contains God's Eternal Words!

I Will Refrain From Further Response With You In This Thread.

i know this seems weird to you, after learning it that way, but that is manufactured information, and is not supported by the text. The Bible even reveals why what you deem "the Bible" is not "Holy" writ; bc scribes translate to aid and abet our understanding, and next thing you know "Easter" is "Holy Writ" see

and even read in the original--a much better choice, granted--you were not there to hear the Word spoken, and God's Word works just like your word; the air has to move. You could not give me your "word" here in forum w/o me qualifying it as such--say, to a cop--right? Bc you did not actually hear it come from my mouth
We trust the orig account to be genuine--even if one must see and not see to read It--but there is now an intermediary between you and Word

so to say that the Book is the Word is to misunderstand Word, and where to find it, etc. By def if you feel you have properly IDed Word as the Bible, then you are just saying that you are not hearing Word

 

[Truth7t7]

Do we not live by faith rather than by knowledge?

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith." Rom 1:17

Do you know that you are right in every point of your doctrines or do you only believe that you?

"All the ways of a man are clean in his own eyes; but the LORD weigheth the spirits." Prov 16:2

"Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." Prov 21:2

Are we who believe in the Lord Jesus and in the sacrifices that he made not still growing? Are we not growing because in some places we are still immature or still only partaking of milk or even wrong in some places? Why is that which is applicable to us not applicable to the individual Mormons or JWs or SDA believers? You may be able to tear apart the doctrines held by the leadership or the organization of each of those groups, but is your own assessment of what truth is completely flawless? Have you already seen God face to face? If you have not, how can you be certain that each and every person in those groups is seeing God less clearer than you are?

When the Apostle Paul wrote the following words did he not include himself in the "we"?

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

Are you seeing the truth more completely and correctly than did the apostle Paul at the time he wrote those words?

Yes an Individual made a claim and man "Ceases To Exist" at death, a false statement, yes God's word is true below.

Don't shift away from the topic at hand to a mushy diversion of the truth, deal with the topic of the claim.

Are you unaware of what the Holy Bible is intended to be used for, read 2 Timothy 3:16-17below.

An individual comes along and teaches man "Ceases To Exist" upon death?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism, And Jehovah's Witnesses.

Barney you know well this statement is untrue, as Luke 16:21-30, Matthew 10:28teaches so, also many other scripture references.

God's Word's Judge!

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Truth7t7]

2 Tim.3:16-17 isn't to be used in a way that is persecutive or judgemental as your trying to do. Like I said you can disagree without being persecutive or judgemental. Nothing wrong with you exercising your right to disagree.

Matthew 10:28 here again the scriptures tell you to stand your ground on what God word has convinced you to believe is the truth about God and his kingdom, but you can do that without being persecutive or judgemental.

The statement: "a man comes along and teaches a man ceases to exist at death" the people who believe this are simply believing that this is the definition of death. You don't have to believe this definition of death,you can express your belief your definition of death but there again you can do that without being persecutive or judgemental.

I understand that you truly believe that you are posting the truth of God word, and you have every right to post what you believe to be the truth of God word, but everyone else truly believes that too. Now I understand that everyone can't be right, that somebody is wrong,but should we say that someone is wrong in a persecutive or judgemental way.

God's word isn't used to decide and judge doctrine, Big Smiles!

The statement was made "Man Ceases To Exist At Death" a 100% False claim, read the scripture below that judges and determines the validity of this doctrine.

"Man Lives After Death" to teach otherwise is a false doctrine of Annihilation, taught in 7th Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your claims against me are false, and God's word in Matthew 10:28 below is true, Man's soul is eternal, and you know it.

Stick to the topic, of the false claim made that "Man Ceases To Exist" at death.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

 

[Harvest 1874]

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].” Matt 10:28

This text in no way is meant to imply that man is a combination of body and soul, that man HAS a soul, to the contrary man IS a soul.

“And the Lord God formed man (the organism) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [ruach: Strong’s # 7307]; and man became a living being (soul).” Gen2:7

“And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” 1 Cor 15:45

This scripture clearly states that the first man WAS MADE or BECAME a living soul; there is no mention of a soul being placed into the man.

As for our text, Matt 10:28:

Men are only are able to kill our bodies (the organism), but nothing that they can do will affect our future being (soul), in the resurrection our revived soul will have a new body as the Lord is pleased to give, however God can do both, he can not only deprive you (the being, the soul) of the present life or existence, but likewise completely destroy you in Gehenna, the second death [utter destruction] thus depriving you of any future existence which you might have had.

So then fear not them which take away the present life, which is under sentence of death; but remember that you have been redeemed, and that a future life is a possibility to you, and that no man can rob you of that which has been provided through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

God told Adam and Eve (two living souls) that they would surely die if they disobeyed Him. (Gen 2:17) It is the soul, the sentient being, the will or mind of a man which is responsible for sin and it is the soul which is to bear the penalty of sin. That penalty is distinctly stated to be death. “The wages of sin is death.” (Rom 6:23) “The soul that sins it shall die.” Ezek 18:4

What is the death state?

King David said of death: “His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psa 146:4) If immortal, the thoughts of a man would not perish, but would go on to another state of being. Solomon said: “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goes.”

The dead are not conscious, for BOTH the body and the mind of a man cease to exist at death. “For the living know that they will die; but the dead know not anything...” Eccl 9:10, 5

The Apostle Paul describes death as sleep. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope… For the Lord himself shall descend [at his second coming] from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” (1 Thess 4:13, 16) If the dead were conscious, then they would have no need to be raised.

Although the Scriptures do not support the thought that the soul is immortal, they do abound with the hope of a resurrection from death in due time. “God will redeem my soul [that sentient being which had been alive] from the grave [sheol—the condition of death].” Psa 49:15

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

God's word isn't used to decide and judge doctrine, Big Smiles!

The statement was made "Man Ceases To Exist At Death" a 100% False claim, read the scripture below that judges and determines the validity of this doctrine.

"Man Lives After Death" to teach otherwise is a false doctrine of Annihilation, taught in 7th Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your claims against me are false, and God's word in Matthew 10:28 below is true, Man's soul is eternal, and you know it.

Stick to the topic, of the false claim made that "Man Ceases To Exist" at death.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in h

God's word isn't used to decide and judge doctrine, Big Smiles!

The statement was made "Man Ceases To Exist At Death" a 100% False claim, read the scripture below that judges and determines the validity of this doctrine.

"Man Lives After Death" to teach otherwise is a false doctrine of Annihilation, taught in 7th Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your claims against me are false, and God's word in Matthew 10:28 below is true, Man's soul is eternal, and you know it.

Stick to the topic, of the false claim made that "Man Ceases To Exist" at death.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

ell.

2 Timothy 3:16-17KJV
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

(Matt. 10:28) These words of Jesus the Roman Catholic priesthood and Protestant clergy of Christendom have used to argue that the human soul is unkillable and that it is, as the ancient Babylonians and the pagan Greeks claimed, an “immortal soul.” The Holy Bible, in both its Hebrew Scriptures and its Greek Scriptures, teaches that the human soul is mortal, not immortal, destructible, not indestructible. Eighty-eight or more Bible texts can be quoted to show that the human soul dies; no texts show that it is immortal.

What, then, did Jesus Christ mean when he said: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul”? He meant that such opposers and suppressors of the preaching of God’s kingdom cannot keep the faithful Kingdom preachers from having a resurrection of their souls from Haʹdes, the common grave of dead mankind.


Many have been told that the early Church Fathers, medieval theologians, and Reformers argued that the torments experienced in hell are everlasting? It may surprise you to know that some highly regarded Bible scholars are now challenging that view. In Britain, one of them, John R. W. Stott, writes that “Scripture points in the direction of annihilation, and that ‘eternal conscious torment’ is a tradition which has to yield to the supreme authority of Scripture.”

His first argument involves language. He explains that when the Bible refers to the final state of damnation (“Gehenna”), it often uses the vocabulary of “destruction,” the Greek “verb apollumi (to destroy) and the noun apòleia (destruction).” Do these words refer to torment? Stott points out that when the verb is active and transitive, “apollumi” means “kill.” (Matthew 2:13;12:14; 21:41) Thus, at Matthew 10:28, where the King James Version mentions God’s destroying “both soul and body in hell,” the inherent idea is destroying in death, not in eternal suffering.

At Matthew 7:13, 14, Jesus contrasts the “narrow . . . road leading off into life” with the “broad . . . road leading off into destruction.” Comments Stott: “It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed.” With good reason he reaches the conclusion: “If to kill is to deprive the body of life, hell would seem to be the deprivation of both physical and spiritual life, that is, an extinction of being.”

Regarding those cast into Gehenna, Jesus said that “their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:47, 48)

Isaiah 66:24, the scripture that Jesus evidently alluded to, says that the fire and the maggot are destroying the dead bodies (“the carcasses,” says Isaiah) of God’s enemies. There is no hint of everlasting conscious torment in either Isaiah’s words or those of Jesus. The imagery of fire symbolizes complete destruction.

Revelation 14:9-11 speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.”* Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke —the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction— that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

Revelation 20:10-15 says that in “the lake of fire and sulphur, . . . they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” At first reading, this might sound like proof of eternal conscious torment by fire, but it definitely is not. Why? Among other reasons, “the wild beast and the false prophet” and “death and Hades” will end up in what is here called “the lake of fire.” As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Instead, writes G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, “the lake of fire” means “extinction and total oblivion.” This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.” —Revelation 20:14.

In spite of these arguments, many believers insist that “destruction” does not mean what the word says but means eternal torment. Why? Their thinking is influenced by hellfire’s religious twin —the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul. And since their church may have mothered these twins for centuries, they may feel that texts that speak of destruction actually mean eternal torture. After all, the immortal human soul cannot go out of existence —or so it is reasoned by many.

But note the point made by Anglican clergyman Philip E. Hughes: “To contend that only the human soul is innately immortal is to maintain a position which is nowhere approved in the teaching of Scripture, for in the biblical purview human nature is always seen as integrally compounded of both the spiritual and the bodily. . . . God’s warning at the beginning, regarding the forbidden tree, ‘In the day that you eat of it you shall die,’ was addressed to man as a corporeal-spiritual creature —should he eat of it, it was as such that he would die. There is no suggestion that a part of him was undying and therefore that his death would be in part only.”

Similarly, theologian Clark Pinnock remarks: “This concept [that the human soul is immortal] has influenced theology for a long, long time but it is not biblical. The Bible does not teach the natural immortality of the soul.” Ezekiel 18:4, 20 and Matthew 10:28 confirm this. Moreover, Jesus himself spoke of his dead friend Lazarus as having “gone to rest,” or sleep. Jesus said that he was “to awaken him from sleep.” (John 11:11-14) So the human being, or human soul, Lazarus had died, but even after some time passed, he could be resurrected, brought back to life again. The facts prove that. Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead. —John 11:17-44.