The thief on the cross !?

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Truth7t7

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I love it when people talk about things which it is evident they know nothing about it's a quick gauge in determining just how knowledgeable they truly are.

First of all Charles Taze Russell was not the founder of the JW's nor do they follow his teachings. Pastor Russel died in 1916 and shortly thereafter Judge Rutherford took over the organization and preceded to throw out all of Pastor Russell's writings replacing them with his own. As for the Jehovah's Witnesses they didn't even exist as an organization until 1931.

Bible Students today still hold to the original teachings of the Pastor, JW's do not, yes its true they still retain some of the basic teachings, but for the most part they are completely different.

Regardless of this I've had opportunity to examine some of the teachings of the JW's and I don't see any evidence of them teaching another Jesus, another gospel perhaps, but not much different from how the rest of the various sects have distorted the truth.

If you believe they teach another Jesus please explain it to the rest of us, being how your so knowledgeable concerning their teachings.
Jehovah's Witnesses Are A False Cult, They Dont Believe Jesus Was God Manifest In The Flesh, Nor Do They Believe In The Triune Godhead.

I Will Not Argue The Cult Of The Jehovah's Witnesses In This Thread, I'm Out.

John 1:1-5KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

They also deny the Tribune Godhead.

1 John 5:7KJV
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
 
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Truth7t7

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Amadeus:

(Size-7) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-6) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-5) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-4) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?
 
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Harvest 1874

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In spite of these arguments, many believers insist that “destruction” does not mean what the word says but means eternal torment. Why? Their thinking is influenced by hellfire’s religious twin —the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul. And since their church may have mothered these twins for centuries, they may feel that texts that speak of destruction actually mean eternal torture. After all, the immortal human soul cannot go out of existence —or so it is reasoned by many.

But note the point made by Anglican clergyman Philip E. Hughes: “To contend that only the human soul is innately immortal is to maintain a position which is nowhere approved in the teaching of Scripture, for in the biblical purview human nature is always seen as integrally compounded of both the spiritual and the bodily. . . . God’s warning at the beginning, regarding the forbidden tree, ‘In the day that you eat of it you shall die,’ was addressed to man as a corporeal-spiritual creature —should he eat of it, it was as such that he would die. There is no suggestion that a part of him was undying and therefore that his death would be in part only.”

Thanks for this my brother; we would just like to add two further thoughts here.

In line with the fact that that which is immortal cannot die, cease to exist, is the statement made by the apostle that the corruptible (mortal) must put on the incorruptible (immortality).

Now this statement of incorruptibleness can be viewed from two points, it implies that that which is incorruptible is immune to corruption, therefore immune to suffering, to pain, disease, and etc., i.e. death proof can neither die nor cease to exist.

Secondly incorruption implies that which is immortal is just that; incorruptible it cannot sin nor do wrong because this is against its very nature.

Mankind when perfected will likewise possess this latter quality or nature, howbeit as perfect mortal beings. Sin will always be a possibility, but it will forever be against their nature to do so having passed the final test and been found approved by God.

Now as to the statement made by the Anglican clergyman Philip E. Hughes we must disagree with his thought that the “human nature is always seen as integrally compounded of both the spiritual and the bodily”, that man is a “corporeal-spiritual creature”.

Adam was created a perfect man a human being there was no hint of any spiritual essence given him. In fact the idea of a dual nature is contrary to the divine will as is evident in the Lord’s destruction of all the mixed children of the fallen angels, the Nephilim.

Adam was never promised any spiritual reward for obedience, but rather perfect life in paradise as a human being. Now if in spirituality one means a reverence and worship for one’s creator that’s different and wholly appropriate.
 

Phoneman777

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Neither Jesus nor the thief made it to Paradise on Friday, the day that everyone claims Jesus said that He and the thief would be in Paradise. They do so because of a misunderstanding of what Jesus said to the thief.
 

Truth7t7

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And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell [Gehenna].” Matt 10:28

This text in no way is meant to imply that man is a combination of body and soul, that man HAS a soul, to the contrary man IS a soul.

“And the Lord God formed man (the organism) of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life [ruach: Strong’s # 7307]; and man became a living being (soul).” Gen2:7

“And so it is written, the first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.” 1 Cor 15:45

This scripture clearly states that the first man WAS MADE or BECAME a living soul; there is no mention of a soul being placed into the man.

As for our text, Matt 10:28:

Men are only are able to kill our bodies (the organism), but nothing that they can do will affect our future being (soul), in the resurrection our revived soul will have a new body as the Lord is pleased to give, however God can do both, he can not only deprive you (the being, the soul) of the present life or existence, but likewise completely destroy you in Gehenna, the second death [utter destruction] thus depriving you of any future existence which you might have had.

So then fear not them which take away the present life, which is under sentence of death; but remember that you have been redeemed, and that a future life is a possibility to you, and that no man can rob you of that which has been provided through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

God told Adam and Eve (two living souls) that they would surely die if they disobeyed Him. (Gen 2:17) It is the soul, the sentient being, the will or mind of a man which is responsible for sin and it is the soul which is to bear the penalty of sin. That penalty is distinctly stated to be death. “The wages of sin is death.” (Rom 6:23) “The soul that sins it shall die.” Ezek 18:4

What is the death state?

King David said of death: “His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psa 146:4) If immortal, the thoughts of a man would not perish, but would go on to another state of being. Solomon said: “There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goes.”

The dead are not conscious, for BOTH the body and the mind of a man cease to exist at death. “For the living know that they will die; but the dead know not anything...” Eccl 9:10, 5

The Apostle Paul describes death as sleep. “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep [dead] that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope… For the Lord himself shall descend [at his second coming] from heaven with a shout... and the dead in Christ shall rise first.” (1 Thess 4:13, 16) If the dead were conscious, then they would have no need to be raised.

Although the Scriptures do not support the thought that the soul is immortal, they do abound with the hope of a resurrection from death in due time. “God will redeem my soul [that sentient being which had been alive] from the grave [sheol—the condition of death].” Psa 49:15
Who are you responding to?
 

Truth7t7

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Neither Jesus nor the thief made it to Paradise on Friday, the day that everyone claims Jesus said that He and the thief would be in Paradise. They do so because of a misunderstanding of what Jesus said to the thief.
Jesus said today you will be with me?

Who cares where Jesus Went behind the veil in the spiritual, the thief was in the comfort of the Lord God almighty.
 

Truth7t7

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(Matt. 10:28) These words of Jesus the Roman Catholic priesthood and Protestant clergy of Christendom have used to argue that the human soul is unkillable and that it is, as the ancient Babylonians and the pagan Greeks claimed, an “immortal soul.” The Holy Bible, in both its Hebrew Scriptures and its Greek Scriptures, teaches that the human soul is mortal, not immortal, destructible, not indestructible. Eighty-eight or more Bible texts can be quoted to show that the human soul dies; no texts show that it is immortal.

What, then, did Jesus Christ mean when he said: “Do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul”? He meant that such opposers and suppressors of the preaching of God’s kingdom cannot keep the faithful Kingdom preachers from having a resurrection of their souls from Haʹdes, the common grave of dead mankind.


Many have been told that the early Church Fathers, medieval theologians, and Reformers argued that the torments experienced in hell are everlasting? It may surprise you to know that some highly regarded Bible scholars are now challenging that view. In Britain, one of them, John R. W. Stott, writes that “Scripture points in the direction of annihilation, and that ‘eternal conscious torment’ is a tradition which has to yield to the supreme authority of Scripture.”

His first argument involves language. He explains that when the Bible refers to the final state of damnation (“Gehenna”), it often uses the vocabulary of “destruction,” the Greek “verb apollumi (to destroy) and the noun apòleia (destruction).” Do these words refer to torment? Stott points out that when the verb is active and transitive, “apollumi” means “kill.” (Matthew 2:13;12:14; 21:41) Thus, at Matthew 10:28, where the King James Version mentions God’s destroying “both soul and body in hell,” the inherent idea is destroying in death, not in eternal suffering.

At Matthew 7:13, 14, Jesus contrasts the “narrow . . . road leading off into life” with the “broad . . . road leading off into destruction.” Comments Stott: “It would seem strange, therefore, if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed.” With good reason he reaches the conclusion: “If to kill is to deprive the body of life, hell would seem to be the deprivation of both physical and spiritual life, that is, an extinction of being.”

Regarding those cast into Gehenna, Jesus said that “their maggot does not die and the fire is not put out.” (Mark 9:47, 48)

Isaiah 66:24, the scripture that Jesus evidently alluded to, says that the fire and the maggot are destroying the dead bodies (“the carcasses,” says Isaiah) of God’s enemies. There is no hint of everlasting conscious torment in either Isaiah’s words or those of Jesus. The imagery of fire symbolizes complete destruction.

Revelation 14:9-11 speaks of some who are “tormented with fire and sulphur . . . And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever.”* Does this prove eternal conscious torment in hellfire? Actually, all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke —the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction— that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

Revelation 20:10-15 says that in “the lake of fire and sulphur, . . . they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.” At first reading, this might sound like proof of eternal conscious torment by fire, but it definitely is not. Why? Among other reasons, “the wild beast and the false prophet” and “death and Hades” will end up in what is here called “the lake of fire.” As you may easily conclude, the beast, the false prophet, death, and Hades are not literal persons; therefore, they cannot experience conscious torment. Instead, writes G. B. Caird in A Commentary on the Revelation of St. John the Divine, “the lake of fire” means “extinction and total oblivion.” This realization should be easily reached, for the Bible itself states about this lake of fire: “This means the second death, the lake of fire.” —Revelation 20:14.

In spite of these arguments, many believers insist that “destruction” does not mean what the word says but means eternal torment. Why? Their thinking is influenced by hellfire’s religious twin —the doctrine of the immortality of the human soul. And since their church may have mothered these twins for centuries, they may feel that texts that speak of destruction actually mean eternal torture. After all, the immortal human soul cannot go out of existence —or so it is reasoned by many.

But note the point made by Anglican clergyman Philip E. Hughes: “To contend that only the human soul is innately immortal is to maintain a position which is nowhere approved in the teaching of Scripture, for in the biblical purview human nature is always seen as integrally compounded of both the spiritual and the bodily. . . . God’s warning at the beginning, regarding the forbidden tree, ‘In the day that you eat of it you shall die,’ was addressed to man as a corporeal-spiritual creature —should he eat of it, it was as such that he would die. There is no suggestion that a part of him was undying and therefore that his death would be in part only.”

Similarly, theologian Clark Pinnock remarks: “This concept [that the human soul is immortal] has influenced theology for a long, long time but it is not biblical. The Bible does not teach the natural immortality of the soul.” Ezekiel 18:4, 20 and Matthew 10:28 confirm this. Moreover, Jesus himself spoke of his dead friend Lazarus as having “gone to rest,” or sleep. Jesus said that he was “to awaken him from sleep.” (John 11:11-14) So the human being, or human soul, Lazarus had died, but even after some time passed, he could be resurrected, brought back to life again. The facts prove that. Jesus resurrected Lazarus from the dead. —John 11:17-44.
Barney you write a Novel and still have not responded to the post.

Truth7t7 said:
God's word isn't used to decide and judge doctrine, Big Smiles!

The statement was made "Man Ceases To Exist At Death" a 100% False claim, read the scripture below that judges and determines the validity of this doctrine.

"Man Lives After Death" to teach otherwise is a false doctrine of Annihilation, taught in 7th Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your claims against me are false, and God's word in Matthew 10:28 below is true, Man's soul is eternal, and you know it.

Stick to the topic, of the false claim made that "Man Ceases To Exist" at death.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
 

amadeus

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Amadeus:

(Size-7) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-6) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-5) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-4) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?
Sorry for this. To answer your question, Yes.

I adjust the size to that which is comfortable for my eyes to read. Many of the lengthy small font posts I skip because it is too hard for me to read them. Unfortunately, I cannot please everyone. Any direction I go someone is likely to be displeased with my choice.
 

Phoneman777

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Adam was created a perfect man a human being there was no hint of any spiritual essence given him. In fact the idea of a dual nature is contrary to the divine will as is evident in the Lord’s destruction of all the mixed children of the fallen angels, the Nephilim.
How can angels and humans produce offspring when angels are a different order of being altogether and are not said to have sex at all, or possess human sex organs, sperm, or DNA?

Of course, this assumption is predicated on the Genesis 6 reference of "Sons of God" pertaining to angels, not humans. But, why would someone choose to forego the idea that it is an account that human "sons of God" believers became unequally yoked with unbelievers - which requires all the equivalent mental energy of stepping over a rain puddle - and embrace the idea that angels and women had sex to produce giant, evil amalgamations, which is the equivalent of having to leap over the Grand Canyon while wearing a backpack full of rocks from Mount Hermon?
 

Truth7t7

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How can angels and humans produce offspring when angels are a different order of being altogether and are not said to have sex at all, or possess human sex organs, sperm, or DNA?

Of course, this assumption is predicated on the Genesis 6 reference of "Sons of God" pertaining to angels, not humans. But, why would someone choose to forego the idea that it is an account that human "sons of God" believers became unequally yoked with unbelievers - which requires all the equivalent mental energy of stepping over a rain puddle - and embrace the idea of angels and women had sex to produce giant, evil amalgamations, which is the equivalent of having to leap over the Grand Canyon while wearing a backpack full of rocks from Mount Hermon?
Your 100% correct, the false teaching of the Nephilim, Chuck Missler

No such thing as humans and angels having sexual relations, only found in mythology and the occult.
 

Phoneman777

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Jesus said today you will be with me?

Who cares where Jesus Went behind the veil in the spiritual, the thief was in the comfort of the Lord God almighty.
My point is that that neither the thief nor Jesus went anyplace of comfort on Friday
 
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Phoneman777

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Your 100% correct, the false teaching of the Nephilim, Chuck Missler

No such thing as humans and angels having sexual relations, only found in mythology and the occult.
Always it seems the separation point from truth toward error always begins with the setting aside of the Hebrew Chiasms
 

Helen

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Amadeus:

(Size-7) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-6) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-5) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


(Size-4) Have you ever been told, your font size makes your post's difficult to read?


Tut tut. Why do you have to be rude and hurtful about it?

Have you never been aware that not all of us are young ...and some of us cannot see as clearly as you can anymore. Count yourself lucky, maybe one day your eyesight and hearing will go too.

And , MANY of us many find size 4 font almost impossible to read.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Now as to the statement made by the Anglican clergyman Philip E. Hughes we must disagree with his thought that the “human nature is always seen as integrally compounded of both the spiritual and the bodily”, that man is a “corporeal-spiritual creature”.

I was not saying that I believe something survives death, or that Man has a Soul. I believe man is a Soul. When I quoted Phillip E. Hughes I wasn't saying I agree that Man is a Corporeal-Spiritual Creature I was simply showing that although Phillip E. Hughes believed Adam to be a Corporeal-Spiritual Creature, he believes that Adam went into nonexistence when he died.
 

BARNEY BRIGHT

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Barney you write a Novel and still have not responded to the post.

Truth7t7 said:
God's word isn't used to decide and judge doctrine, Big Smiles!

The statement was made "Man Ceases To Exist At Death" a 100% False claim, read the scripture below that judges and determines the validity of this doctrine.

"Man Lives After Death" to teach otherwise is a false doctrine of Annihilation, taught in 7th Day Adventism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Your claims against me are false, and God's word in Matthew 10:28 below is true, Man's soul is eternal, and you know it.

You obviously don't either understand what I post or don't really read it. I have been showing by the posts I texted that I don't believe that the seven day Adventist or the Jehovah witness are making a false claim. I believe that you are non-existent at death until the Resurrection, that is if God has judged you worthy of a resurrection. So I don't believe man is a immortal Soul nor do I believe man has a immortal soul.

It is you and those like you, who believe you continue to exist after death I believe are making the false claims.

Matthew 10:28KJV
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The scripture above is simply stating not to fear man who can kill you yes but it will be temporary not forever, God is the only one who can destroy you forever, so fear him instead.
 

Harvest 1874

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How can angels and humans produce offspring when angels are a different order of being altogether and are not said to have sex at all, or possess human sex organs, sperm, or DNA?

Of course, this assumption is predicated on the Genesis 6 reference of "Sons of God" pertaining to angels, not humans. But, why would someone choose to forego the idea that it is an account that human "sons of God" believers became unequally yoked with unbelievers - which requires all the equivalent mental energy of stepping over a rain puddle - and embrace the idea that angels and women had sex to produce giant, evil amalgamations, which is the equivalent of having to leap over the Grand Canyon while wearing a backpack full of rocks from Mount Hermon?

You are free to believe as you chose, not believing that there were once children of the fallen spirits is not essential to one’s salvation, but it may have adverse consequences on the naïve during the great time of trouble.

The fallen spirits have (had) the ability to manifest themselves in fleshly bodies with all the same abilities as natural flesh, perfect in vitality, it was only then that they were able to copulate with the daughters of men. The ability for angelic beings to manifest themselves into fleshly bodies is proven throughout the scriptures.

When the flood came all flesh (both human and Nephilim) save Noah and his family died, the fallen spirits simply dematerialized back to their original estate unfortunately this was not an option for their offspring and as such they perished.

Ever since this time the fallen spirits have been cast down (degraded) to Tartarus (the dark abyss or prison, the atmosphere of the earth) locked in chains of darkness and unable to materialize themselves in the flesh as they previously had (2 Pet 2:4), their only means of communication with mankind now is through witchcraft, séances and possession, but this they cannot do without the cooperation of gullible men.

And the angels which kept not their first estate (as spirit beings), but left their own habitation (to become flesh and blood), he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto (or until) the judgment of the great day.” Jude 6

The scriptures indicate that the time is coming soon, most likely during the great time of trouble that these fallen angels will be loosed from these chains able once again to manifest themselves in flesh once more, this will be the time of their judgement ("krima", Strong’s # 2920: the final decision or conclusion of judgment, the judgment pronounced).
 

Harvest 1874

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I was not saying that I believe something survives death, or that Man has a Soul. I believe man is a Soul. When I quoted Phillip E. Hughes I wasn't saying I agree that Man is a Corporeal-Spiritual Creature I was simply showing that although Phillip E. Hughes believed Adam to be a Corporeal-Spiritual Creature, he believes that Adam went into nonexistence when he died.

Nor was I accusing you of such, I was simply stating that we disagree with what the clergyman said about man being a “corporeal-spiritual creature”.