The thief on the cross !?

[Harvest 1874]

Barney I believe you are not properly posting your replies following the (quote) so your post tend to run into the comments of the one with whom you are responding thus making it a bit difficult to distinguish between what the individual said and what you said. I had to go back and add your comment to my previous reply because no one would have known who or what I was responding to without going back and looking for it.

Just a heads up in case you weren't aware. Make your reply after this, [/QUOTE]

 

[Truth7t7]

Barney it appears you believe "man ceases to exist" after death?

God's word clearly teaches man lives consiously after death, in many passages.

The dead righteous are alive in the spiritual, and concious of their previous life on earth.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Nor was I accusing you of such, I was simply stating that we disagree with what the clergyman said about man being a “corporeal-spiritual creature”.

Ok my bad.

 

[Helen]

hmm, maybe font 1 is the way to go then...


oh ya, i'm likin it

Hey, did you say something?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney it appears you believe "man ceases to exist" after death?

God's word clearly teaches man lives consiously after death, in many passages.

The dead righteous are alive in the spiritual, and concious of their previous life on earth.

I understand what you believe and I understand that you believe it to be scriptural. When it comes to my belief I also believe the scriptures support what I believe, I know one of us is wrong, but you and those who believe like you have not convinced me you're right about what you say, you have not convinced me that what you believe is what the scriptures say. For example Genesis 2:17; 3:17-19 God uses the word "You" when speaking to Adam, you and others like you want me to believe God was only talking to only part of Adam, that God wasn't talking to the whole person when God used the word "you" regarding Adam. I know God was talking to the whole person when God used the word "you". There is no way you will convince me differently. There is nothing in these scriptures that say Adam would live on somewhere else after he died.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

The scriptures in Revelation themselves show that John was
Shown what was to happen shortly in signs, so a great deal of Revelation is
symbolic.

 

[Heb 13:8]

My point is that that neither the thief nor Jesus went anyplace of comfort on Friday

That's true, place the comma after "today," there were no commas in the original text

 

[Truth7t7]

Thanks for the response.

You have validated your belief that

"Man Ceases To Exist After Death"

I see that your belief is in error, as the scripture below, saw the dead righteous with the Lord, conscious of their life on earth.

It's not symbolic as you suggest, as John was seeing into the spiritual,

"They Were Physically Killed On Earth"

I will have no further question or response.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Harvest 1874]

Thanks for the response.

You have validated your belief that

"Man Ceases To Exist After Death"

I see that your belief is in error, as the scripture below, saw the dead righteous with the Lord, conscious of their life on earth.

It's not symbolic as you suggest, as John was seeing into the spiritual, I will have no further question or response.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

And we see that your belief is in error, the scriptures are quite adamant,

“His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psa 146:4)

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know not anything...” (Eccl 9:5)

“There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge , nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goes.” (Eccl 9:10)

The dead are not conscious, for BOTH the body and the mind of a man cease to exist at death.

The dead are really dead, extinct, except as God has provided for them a resurrection from the dead, a reawakening to sentient being. The very moment of their awakening will seem to each individual to be the next moment from the one in which he died; for there is no consciousness, no awareness in the grave, in Sheol, in hell.

The suggestion that we deceive ourselves and imagine without reason that the moment of death is the moment of greater life, is of the Adversary, who contradicted the Lord's statement in Eden to our first parents, and when the Lord had declared, "Ye shall surely die" for your sin, declared in contradiction, "Ye shall not surely die."--Gen. 3:2-4.

As for the text which you believe supports your theory, this is a symbolic picture of Justice, long deferred, crying out for vengeance in the same sense as Abel's blood is said to have cried out.

 

[Heb 13:8]

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Soul sleep is truth 7t7, so many would rather follow tradition and Hollywood films than to understand that the body cannot exist without the spirit and soul, Gen 2:7. 7t7, does blood talk???....

Rev 6:10 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Gen 4:10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

God bless

 

[Truth7t7]

And we see that your belief is in error, the scriptures are quite adamant,

“His breath goes forth, he returns to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.” (Psa 146:4)

“For the living know that they will die; but the dead know not anything...” (Eccl 9:5)

“There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge , nor wisdom in the grave whither thou goes.” (Eccl 9:10)

The dead are not conscious, for BOTH the body and the mind of a man cease to exist at death.

The dead are really dead, extinct, except as God has provided for them a resurrection from the dead, a reawakening to sentient being. The very moment of their awakening will seem to each individual to be the next moment from the one in which he died; for there is no consciousness, no awareness in the grave, in Sheol, in hell.

The suggestion that we deceive ourselves and imagine without reason that the moment of death is the moment of greater life, is of the Adversary, who contradicted the Lord's statement in Eden to our first parents, and when the Lord had declared, "Ye shall surely die" for your sin, declared in contradiction, "Ye shall not surely die."--Gen. 3:2-4.

As for the text which you believe supports your theory, this is a symbolic picture of Justice, long deferred, crying out for vengeance in the same sense as Abel's blood is said to have cried out.

No consciousness, awareness, in the grave?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses!

Of course there is as the verses below show the souls of the dead saints with the Lord, and they remembered their life on earth.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Truth7t7]

Soul sleep is truth 7t7, so many would rather follow tradition and Hollywood films than to understand that the body cannot exist without the spirit and soul, Gen 2:7. 7t7, does blood talk???....

Rev 6:10 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Gen 4:10 The Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me from the ground. 11Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother’s blood from your hand. 12When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth.”

God bless

Soul sleep is a false doctrine propagated by not a Prophetess (Ellen G. White) and 7th Day Adventism, And Charles Taze Russel And The Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does it look like the "Souls" below are sleeping, they are in the Lord's presence and remembering their life on earth.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

[Heb 13:8]

Soul sleep is a false doctrine propagated by not a Prophetess (Ellen G. White) and 7th Day Adventism, And Charles Taze Russel And The Jehovah's Witnesses.

Does it look like the "Souls" below are sleeping, they are in the Lord's presence and remembering their life on earth.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

It's symbolic 7t7, what other scripture besides this proves soul sleep is false?

 

[Harvest 1874]

No consciousness, awareness, in the grave?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses!

Of course there is as the verses below show the souls of the dead saints with the Lord, and they remembered their life on earth.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Keep telling yourself that maybe you'll believe it, because no one else with the "spirit of a sound mind" would.

 

[Truth7t7]

Keep telling yourself that maybe you'll believe it, because no one else with the "spirit of a sound mind" would.

No consciousness, awareness, in the grave?

A false teaching found in 7th Day Adventism and the Jehovah's Witnesses!

 

[Heb 13:8]

No consciousness, awareness, in the grave?

7t7, the Hebrew/Greek translation for spirit is actually "wind and breath".

So according to you, people are living in heaven right now as wind and breath. That is false. If only people would take the time to study...

I do believe Paul is using figurative language for the first resurrection (mortality/immortality) in 2 Cor 5:8. He is saying he would rather skip the naked grave part and go straight to first resurrection. It's helpful to read chapters in full to understand the context.

Job 1:21 and said: “Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; may the name of the LORD be praised.”

Ecc 5:15 Everyone comes naked from their mother's womb, and as everyone comes, so they depart. They take nothing from their toil that they can carry in their hands.

1 Cor 15:50-54 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

2 Cor 5:1-5 For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come

God bless

 

[Phoneman777]

The ability for angelic beings to manifest themselves into fleshly bodies is proven throughout the scriptures.

You do realize that demons can play with our minds, emotions, even our reality, don't you? That loved one that perhaps appears to us at night and whose embrace feels so authentically human is not a manifestation of flesh and bone, for there is not one verse that suggests any demon is capable of that which you say is throughout Scripture, as far as I can tell.

 

[brakelite]

I will repeat this here from another thread, seeing it deals with the very same topic....
I think we as Christians need to accept revelation on this matter, because with the current escalation in interest in spiritualism, the occult, NDEs, apparitions and visions of the dead, channeling etc, most of which are forbidden as abomination, if we accept false ideas on this topic, we may be, as many Christians are, deceived along with the world.

Psalm 146:1 ¶ Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul.
2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Eccl. 9:
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun....
10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psalm 6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies’ sake.
5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Ps 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

Ps 88:10 ¶ Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Ps 88:11 Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

Ps 88:12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Ps 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth.

Call me a cynic if you wish. I do not expect many to believe the above word of God. Far too many Christians read these with the preconception that man is naturally immortal, and lives automatically beyond the grave. They prefer to believe the words of Satan from the garden of Eden, "ye shall not die", rather than the words of God's prophets above.

 

[Phoneman777]

Thanks for the response.

You have validated your belief that

"Man Ceases To Exist After Death"

I see that your belief is in error, as the scripture below, saw the dead righteous with the Lord, conscious of their life on earth.

It's not symbolic as you suggest, as John was seeing into the spiritual,

"They Were Physically Killed On Earth"

I will have no further question or response.

Revelation 6:9-11KJV
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

So, a passage of John in vision where he sees "souls under the altar" in a book that begins with the words "...and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John" is meant to be taken literal, though "signified" , or "sign - ified" denotes unequivocally the use of symbolism, just as your "signature", or "sign - ature" is a symbol for your person?

 

[Harvest 1874]

You do realize that demons can play with our minds, emotions, even our reality, don't you? That loved one that perhaps appears to us at night and whose embrace feels so authentically human is not a manifestation of flesh and bone, for there is not one verse that suggests any demon is capable of that which you say is throughout Scripture, as far as I can tell.

If you had actually taken the time to read my post you would have noted that I said “The fallen spirits have (had) the ability to manifest themselves in fleshly bodies”, but that this ability was taken from them when they were locked in chains of darkness. As for the Holy Angels they still retain this ability even now, this was whom I was referring to when I said that “The ability for angelic beings to manifest themselves into fleshly bodies is proven throughout the scriptures.”

Now the scriptures suggest that very soon now most likely during the great time of trouble the fallen spirits will regain this ability once again to manifest themselves in flesh, as they state that they were only locked in these chains of darkness until the judgement of the great day.

As for demons playing with your mind, emotions and etc. they cannot do this unless you allow them, they aren’t even allowed to enter the minds of the brute creation without permission as was made evident when the legion of demons inhabiting the man asked the Lord if they could inhabit the minds of a heard of swine near by, this only resulted in the swine going mad and leaping from the cliff.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

[QUOTE="Harvest 1874, said

Now the scriptures suggest that very soon now most likely during the great time of trouble the fallen spirits will regain this ability once again to manifest themselves in flesh, as they state that they were only locked in these chains of darkness until the judgement of the great day.

I disagree that these fallen spirits will regain this ability. Jude 1:6 says these are eternal bonds. It seems you are using the word "until" to say that these bonds will be lifted before these fallen spirits are destroyed, but the word "until" means "up to" for example, they are man and wife until death you do part. Therefore I believe these eternal bonds will remain up to the point in time they are being destroyed.

These fallen spirits are in eternal darkness too because of what happened in the days of Noah. That means these fallen spirits are in perpetual darkness because they no longer will receive any true light from God, you think God is going to start letting the fallen spirits receive his true light again, I don't think so.