Revelation chapter 9:5. Time was shortened to 5 month period. Mark chapter 13, time was shortened for the elect sakes. Daniel chapter 12, the wicked wont understand. Listening to traditions of men and false doctrine will lead them right into satan's camp near future. Satan is coming in his role as antichrist near future. Some people dont want to bother studying the bible and putting on the gospel armour of ephesians chapter 6. Many people will worship antichrist and have spot in sheol, called hell. Sheol is holding place for the spirtualty dead or wicked. Read psalm chapter 9 and Luke chapter 16, Richman and Lazarus.
THE TRUTH OF DANIEL'S SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
"And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."
Where in this verse is 7 years shortened to 5 months, or even 3.5 years shortened to 5 months?
All this verse says is they torment people for 5 months. Satan may have 42 months after the 7th Trumpet sounds. There is nothing that states those 5 months cannot continue into the 42 months. There is also nothing that states they have to last for 5 months. God could shorten those 5 months down into 5 days. Remember John is seeing the worst of it, not the shortened version that also could happen.
One could also say 5 months was the maximum, not the minimum.
This period of Tribulation called Jacob's trouble could have already started years ago, but we would never have known, because how much this period is shortened is not determined after the Second Coming. The longer the Second Coming does not happen, the shorter the GT gets. Many state the GT gets shorter because the Second Coming happens after the GT making it shorter or cutting it off, but that is not logical nor possible. Satan's 42 months is a fixed period or not at all. That 42 months ends at the time of the battle of Armageddon. Certainly Armageddon does not happen earlier to shorten Satan's 42 months.
The 5th Trumpet is the first woe, it cannot happen after Satan's 42 months because that is the third woe. The second woe happens after the 6th Trumpet sounds.
Earburner
Well-Known Member
It's NOT A PRIVATE interpretation that these comments oppose "orthodox views", but rather are interpretations by the Lord's Spirit, and not by "the wisdom of men", and/or the traditions of men. 1 Cor. 2:5.
I also have received similar, to almost identical interpretations from His Holy Spirit, without the knowledge of anyone here, or by anything that is specifically professed by others, such as "FaithWillDo" and "Randy Kluth".
Much of what the Lord is professing in me and through me, can be found in my post: "No More Death".
Since there are many of us having similar revelations by the Lord's Holy Spirit, it is apparent that it is not a PRIVATE interpretation of one.
And for that, you might even call it to be "of that spirit of antichrist", but I can assure you, that none of such deny that Jesus, our only Lord and Savior, has come in the flesh, nor do we profess that the resurrection is past. In fact, we profess just the opposite is true.
On a global scale, threatening the very existence of all life on this planet, we are now in very serious and critical times. Therefore it's time that we ALL start to listen through "the mind of Christ" that is within us, who are born again, what it is EXACTLY that His Spirit is saying to the churches, and NOT what "the wisdom of men" is teaching through the churches.
Thanks, Earburner
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David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Very Good Post
Especially this which you said: "God may have used the pathway you took to help you get established. But the gift of prophecy is certainly not designed to promote an exclusive ministry. It is designed to exalt Christ alone."
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
Seems like satan is seeking to take advantage of you and may already have!
You said: "Much of what the Lord is professing in me and through me...."
Correction - the LORD is not professing a single word through you unless it is what HE has already/previously spoken.
the LORD is not giving out any new 'revelation' to you and there is no new unfolding prophecy coming thru you.
You either agree with "It is written" by the Holy Spirit in Scripture or you are puffing yourself up and easy bait for satan's deception.
"God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become so much better than the angels, as He has by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they." - Hebrews ch1
Every Born-Again, Holy Spirit Sealed Believer in Christ is built upon Christ and the Apostles and OT Prophets.
the Gospels, the Apostles Letters and our Lord's Revelation completed the Scriptures for us = no new prophecy or revelation.
Ronald David Bruno
Well-Known Member
Christ came after the 69 weeks and in the 70th week as you stated. The prophecy was about His First Coming and it was fulfilled, He came, that was Grabriel's announcement and a very important one. But you think the message was about His second coming as well. No, there are plenty others that are detailed and specific to reference.
The last week of years was cut. It didn't have to finish, it was inclusive, just as from Friday at 3pm to Sunday morning is not 3 full days. It is inclusive, not 72 hours. Even if we started the count the night before when Jesus was captured in Gethsemane, arrested and beaten ( which would be Friday night), then He was crucified Friday day, died at 3PM and was buried before the Sabbath, then Saturday night and day passed, Sunday night passed and morning came and He rose; it still would not be 72 hours. Likewise the 70 weeks was not fully completely- didn't have to be.
The Gap theory is wrong!
There will be a 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation no doubt, but Revelation and other many prophecies expand our knowledge of these end times with vastly more details. Having to resort to include Daniel 9, misinterpreting a message about Christ's First Coming only and instead thinking certain verses describe the Antichrist 2000 years later, is not the message in the prophecy that Gabriel gave Daniel. GOD DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND. Daniel 12 however is an end times prophecy.
The Holy Spirit does not deny the accomplishments of Christ at Calvary.
Instead He affirms and extols them, which He did through Daniel.
And which the historical orthodox Christian Church also unanimously affirmed and extolled for seventeen centuries.
If the spirit from whom you are receiving your interpretations does not affirm and extol Christ and His accomplishments at Calvary...
...Consistent with Scripture, and affirmed and extolled by the historical orthodox Christian Church...
...Then that spirit is not the Holy Spirit.
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Dear Mr. Bruno,
You said:
But you think the message was about His second coming as well. No, there are plenty others that are detailed and specific to reference.
To believe that the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled when Christ was crucified would require Dan 9:24 to be fulfilled at that time. It was not and it is not fulfilled even to this day.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The transgression is still ongoing and mankind is still sinning. When Dan 9:24 is fulfilled, all mankind will be saved and sin will come to an end.
You said:
Likewise the 70 weeks was not fully completely- didn't have to be.
The Gap theory is wrong!
The 70 weeks of years prophecy is very specific. When Christ was "cut off" at the cross, 3 1/2 years remained for Him to fulfill Dan 9:24. Christ is fulfilling Dan 9:24 under the New Covenant. The New Covenant is an individually fulfilled covenant and is not like the Old Covenant which was made with the whole Nation of Israel.
Christ fulfilled the work He needed to do under the Old Covenant at the cross. At that time, Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant and ceased the daily temple sacrifices and oblations. Christ has no additional work left to be performed under the Old Covenant.
This verse applies:
John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
Under the Old Covenant, Christ's death satisfied the Law which required a perfect blood sacrifice. With Christ's death, He earned the keys to death and hell. With these keys, Christ earned the legal authority to resurrect all mankind from the grave. Christ's work at the cross gave all mankind "life".
But Christ came to give us more than just the same sinful life we have always had. He also came to give us a more abundant life. This more abundant life is a life free from sin and one that has a restored relationship with the Father. Christ is presently doing His spiritual work of the New Covenant within the Elect in this age. Christ is not saving anyone else at this time.
The Old Covenant was physical and outward. It was based on the "works" of man. The New Covenant is completely different. The New Covenant is spiritual and inward. It is based on the "works" of Christ.
Since the New Covenant is spiritual, so are the "works" of Christ. His "works" occur within mankind so as to convert us from being carnal, sinful creatures into children of God who will no longer sin. To accomplish this spiritual work within each person, Christ created a pathway that He will cause all mankind to travel. In this age, Christ is only doing His spiritual work within those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect; the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind.
Christ begins His work within a person when He comes to them and gives them the Early Rain. The Early Rain will give them the down payment of the Spirit (earnest amount) and a measure of faith. This is when an unbeliever is 'called out from the world" and when they enter the church. This event within the life of a person will commence the last 3 1/2 years remaining of Daniel's prophecy for them. If the person is "chosen", Christ will later "come again" to the called out believer and pour out the Latter Rain. This is the moment of conversion and when the individual is "born again" as a child of God. Judgment will then fall on the carnality of the person and destroy it. After they are fully converted, the individual will no longer sin and Dan 9:24 will be fulfilled within them.
Christ will repeat this spiritual process of salvation within every person who has ever lived. The Elect are saved in this age and the balance of mankind will be saved at the end of the next and final age. After the last person is converted and saved, Dan 9:24 will be completely fulfilled and Christ's work will come to an end. He will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will be "all in all" (1Cor 15:20-28).
What I have explained above is NOT the gap theory. Christ's work under the New Covenant was first completed 50 days later within the Jewish Elect on the Day of Pentecost. Christ has been completing it over and over again within the lives of each of His Elect since that time.
Because Christ's spiritual work begins when Christ gives an unbeliever the Early Rain and it ends when He gives them the Latter Rain, the time in between is given the spiritual symbol of 3 1/2 years, 42 months, 1260 days or time, times and a half. All those symbols represent the last 3 1/2 years remaining of Daniel's prophecy.
All "end-time" prophecy is teaching on the spiritual events which will occur within the life of each Elect believer. Those prophecies are not one-time future world events. The New Covenant is spiritual and the events of the New Covenant are likewise spiritual. If the Old Covenant was still in effect, then the prophecies would be physically fulfilled and would take place out in the world. But the New Covenant is not a physical covenant.
You said:
There will be a 3 1/2 year Great Tribulation no doubt, but Revelation and other many prophecies expand our knowledge of these end times with vastly more details. Having to resort to include Daniel 9, misinterpreting a message about Christ's First Coming only and instead thinking certain verses describe the Antichrist 2000 years later, is not the message in the prophecy that Gabriel gave Daniel. GOD DOESN'T CHANGE HIS MIND. Daniel 12 however is an end times prophecy.
The term "great tribulation" refers to the portion of the 3 1/2 years when the called out believer is made spiritually "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is the time when a called out believer will "fall away" and will experience the Abomination of Desolation within themselves. This happens because Satan comes to them and plants his spirit of anti-Christ within them. This spirit will utterly deceive the believer, and when it has run its full course, the believer will become a Man of Sin.
If the fallen away believer is "chosen", they will then be ready for the second coming of Christ when He will individually come to them and pour out the Latter Rain. This event is when the ends of the ages come upon the Elect:
1Cor 10:11 Now all these things happened to them as types, and have been written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come.
The "ends of the ages" is a reoccurring spiritual event within the life of each Elect person.
There is no single person who will appear at the end of this age and be called the anti-Christ (Man of Sin). There simply are no prophecies which are left to be fulfilled physically under the Old Covenant. There is no 7 years or 3 1/2 years of tribulation coming at the end of the literal age.
The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event within the lives of all the Elect.
Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
For the Elect, Christ is coming "quickly" because He will come to them before they physically die. They are the only ones who will be "blessed" and who will "keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book". Those prophecies are spiritually fulfilled within the Elect believer.
If Christ doesn't come to a person before they die, then they are not one of the Elect. They will have to wait until the end of the final age for Christ will appear to them. After Christ appears to the last person who has ever lived, then "every eye" will have seen Him and be saved. Dan 9:24 will then be fulfilled.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
There are no prophesied events left to be fulfilled in this age which have not already been happening spiritually within the Elect. This age will end with the resurrections from the grave and that will commence the final age when Christ will begin His work of saving the balance of mankind.
The "church" is still understanding scripture "carnally" as if the Old Covenant is still in effect. It is not. We must rightly divide the Word by the Old and New Covenants.
2Tim 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
To understand scripture, we must apply scripture accordingly between the Old and New Covenants. One is physical and one is spiritual.
Joe
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Daniel 9:24
“Seventy weeks are determined
For your people and for your holy city,
- To finish the transgression, (fulfilled by Christ)
- To make an end of sins, (fulfilled by Christ)
- To make reconciliation for iniquity, (fulfilled by Christ)
- To bring in everlasting righteousness, (fulfilled by Christ)
- To seal up vision and prophecy, (fulfilled by Christ)
- And to anoint the Most Holy. (fulfilled by the Father)
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
It's really in the way you interpret it. I've seen the 6 things interpreted to be fulfilled in Christ's time, and I've seen them interpreted to be fulfilled in the endtimes. I happen to believe they were fulfilled in Christ's time.
The transgression committed in the time of Christ, which brought final judgment to the Jewish People, was their rejection of Christ and insistence on remaining in their sins. This act of apostasy and idolatry had been done time and again in Israel's history, and had even led to a broken covenant in the time before the Babylonian Captivity. Daniel appears to just be saying that history will repeat itself in the time of Messiah.
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
1) Transgression was completed in the rejection of Christ.
2) Sin in Israel was terminated when Christ rejected their right to retain the Kingdom of God. They were cast out of their land.
3) Sin was atoned for by Christ's death for sin. God's wrath was epitomized by Christ's death, the death of the Son of God. And yet, Christ forgave his murderers.
4) Christ, after his resurrection, gave to his followers rights to his spotless record of righteousness, assuming they pick up his mantle and start to walk in that righteousness. Those who choose to live in his righteousness have Eternal Life.
5) The death and resurrection of Christ, and the salvation of the Church, fulfilled the Abrahamic Covenant and the promises made by the Prophets.
6) The anointing of the Most Holy Place was actually the recognition of Christ as a new High Priest, belonging to a whole different order. The temple was destroyed, but Jesus was anointed a priest forever. He entered into the Holy of Holies in heaven so that we could all approach God through his mercy.
Please don't pretend this can't be interpreted this way. The early Church Fathers did! Christians throughout the ages have! But you're certainly entitled to view things according to your own conscience. Just let others decide for their own conscience?
Dear ScottA,
When Christ said "it is finished", He did not mean that all His work was done. He only meant that His physical work under the Old Covenant was finished. His work under the New Covenant had yet to even begin.
You must rightly divide the Word by the two covenants.
Only after the last 3 1/2 years of the 70 weeks is complete, which is performed under the New Covenant, will Dan 9:24 will be fulfilled.
As for your statement that both the past and the future were fulfilled in Christ at the cross is not true. There are no scriptures which teach this understanding. Do you have any?
Only after the last person is saved at the end of the final age will all things be fulfilled by Christ. At that time, Christ will have "made all things new". He does this by His work under the New Covenant.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Christ is far from finished.
Joe
Dear Randy,
Your statements about the completion of Daniel's prophecy are mostly untrue.
There is only ONE WAY to understand scripture and that is by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Any other way is wrong. There is only one truth and it is only revealed to the converted Elect believers who have been given "eyes that can see". All other believers are spiritually blind and don't have a true knowledge of the truth of God.
Why do you think there are around 2,000 denominations/sects of Christianity in the world? It's not because they are all understand the truth the same way. They absolutely don't. Those 2,000 denominations/sects are all apostate and are following Satan instead of Christ who teaches a doctrine of "works" rather than faith.
As for the early church fathers interpreting it "this way", you are wrong if you are talking about the Apostles. They did not understand or teach it as you do. Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy is not fulfilled yet and that is what they taught. The prophecy won't be fulfilled until the last person who has ever lived is saved. Only then will sin come to an end.
If you are talking about early church fathers who lived after the 1st century, then you are probably right - maybe they did interpret it that way but their way was full of leaven. Those early fathers were the wolves (ministers of Satan) who devoured the true church that Paul warned would be coming. They were all spiritually blind leaders who were under the influence of the spirit of anti-Christ. Their doctrines came from "another gospel".
Nothing has changed in the apostate church since that time.
Joe
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Joe,
I understand your skepticism and things can certainly be viewed from the tail wagging the dog or ship in the bottle perspective. But the times of this world are not actually the measure of these events -- God is.
So, it depends on whether one wants to consider the smaller context of this world or the larger context of the kingdom of God. As for the scriptures--indeed there are only a few, but they are there and they state the facts from that greater perspective of God in past tense. An example would be that we "were" crucified with Christ. So, again, yes much of the scriptures are written from the perspective of this world and experiencing things according to the illusion of created time and only elude to what is actually true with God. But if we are to decrease in our perspective and increase in His perspective, that "knowledge shall increase"...then "rightly dividing the word of truth" goes well beyond the bounds of the Old and the New Covenants perspective.
Thus, it is in fact true, that not "rightly dividing the word of truth" according to God, but according to the perspective of this world--the teachings of men, that has brought about the "lie" leading to "strong delusion."
"that is what they taught."
Where? What Scripture?
You will not, in seventeen centuries of historical orthodox Christianity, find one instance of the denial of Christ's complete and perfect fulfillment of Daniel 9:24.
Not one.
It is a strictly modernist denial and delusion.
David in NJ
Well-Known Member
The last 3.5 years have been on 'Hold' by the FATHER/HOLY SPIRIT = Acts 1:7 and 2 Thessalonians 2:7
When the FATHER is Satisfied, the HOLY SPIRIT will allow the 'wicked one' to be revealed and at HIS Time, HE will Send HIS SON AGAIN.
Dear ScottA,
The Word of God is written in the spiritual language of Christ. It communicates through spiritual symbols and "types". The teaching of the Old Man is one of the spiritual symbols.
You said:
An example would be that we "were" crucified with Christ.
After a believer is "born again" with the Latter Rain, the Day of the Lord will immediate fall on their Old Man (carnal mind). He is said to be "crucified with Christ" because is death is a slow death and is a consequence of the Law, just as Christ's death was a consequence of the Law. Without the Old Man's death, we cannot be fully converted.
You said:
But if we are to decrease in our perspective and increase in His perspective, that "knowledge shall increase"...then "rightly dividing the word of truth" goes well beyond the bounds of the Old and the New Covenants perspective.
This concept you are quoting came from John the Baptist's statement:
John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.
John the Baptist is a "type" for the Old Man. As judgment falls on him, his influence over us decreases. At the same time, as we consume more and more of the truth of Christ, Christ within us will increase. After the Old Man is completely destruction, the believer will only walk by the Spirit and no longer by the flesh.
This verse you referenced does not support your belief that the past and the future were fulfilled by Christ by His work on the cross. There are no scriptures which teach this belief of yours. It is a teaching of men who have been deceived by Satan.
What scripture does teach is this:
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: 11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
The future is certain because Christ will do all the work necessary to make it happen. He declares the future by the words He speaks and then by His "works", He will make it happen.
You said:
Thus, it is in fact true, that not "rightly dividing the word of truth" according to God, but according to the perspective of this world--the teachings of men, that has brought about the "lie" leading to "strong delusion."
Do you know what the "lie" is? The "lie" occurs when Satan comes to a newly called out believer and masquerades as Christ. The new believer, being spiritually blind, believes that Satan is Christ. From Satan's deception, they will accept "another gospel" all the while believing it is Christ's Gospel. The "strong delusion" comes by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ with the new believer. The strong delusion is so deceptive, that if it were possible, even the very Elect would be deceived by it:
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
But since the "very Elect" lived prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the church, it was not possible for them to be deceived by it. For all the other Elect who lived after the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church, it will deceive them. No one is spared. Their deception will last until Christ "comes again" to them and pours out the Latter Rain. With the Latter Rain, the Elect believer's spiritual blindness is healed and they will then come out from Satan's deception. This is what it is meant when scripture says the Man of Sin is revealed. The Elect believer will see that they were this Man of Sin who was utterly deceived by Satan. Then by the brightness of Christ's appearing (truth from scripture), the Man of Sin will be "taken" from within the believer and cast into the Lake of Fire for his destruction.
Joe
Dear Covenantee,
There are many verses which contradict your statement. Here is one:
1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Christ's death on the cross was the perfect sacrifice but it was not the complete fulfillment of Dan 9:24. The only way sin can end is for all mankind to be converted into children of God. After there is no more sin, there will be no more death (the last enemy). This will occur at the end of the final age (typed by the Feast of Tabernacles). Only then will all of Dan 9:24 be fulfilled and God will be "all in all".
Joe
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Joe, you are missing the point and not rightly dividing the word of truth between the times of this world and the timelessness of God and the kingdom of God.
As I said, there is plenty of scripture to quote to support your worldly time-based logic toward what is written. But the point is, the world is not the measure of the truth of God, but rather only speaks of His truth revealed to men in their times--times of darkness, from which light must be divided, not quoted.
It is better for the Bride to be silent.
So, as long as you are going to rationalize things including the dark things of this world...you are not ready to comment on what I have eluded to just as the scriptures have. If and when you can speak to all things as being the same yesterday, today, and forever, then perhaps we can continue. Until then the truth from God only comes here a little, there a little, while men struggle to piece it all together until the death of the flesh delivers each unto God, whether they have come out of darkness or not, which is evidenced in your own rationale. Unfortunately.
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Dear Covenantee,
No, I believe in Jesus Christ who is the Savior of the world.
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
Universalism is a doctrine of men and has many errors in its teachings.
Joe
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