THE TRUTH OF DANIEL'S SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY

[Randy Kluth]

Dear Randy Kluth,
I learned that the Doctrines of Hell and Free Will were false, and to some degree about the apostasy of church, from Ray Smith.

I also have a less common view of "Hell" than many other Christians, but that is not the focus of this particular exchange. Hell is thrown into the Lake of Fire, where it perishes forever. What it is replaced with, as a depository of the Lost, is "Outer Darkness." When people reject the Lord, the Lord has to remove them far from His presence, where things are gloomy and sad. People still have a purpose, but not in the Kingdom of God on earth.

Ray Smith came out of the orthodox churches just as my wife and I did. We had a brief fellowship with Ray but he died a short time later. I do believe his website "bible-truths.com" is still up for viewing. I strongly recommend reading his open letter to Pastor John Hagee.

I don't support everything Hagee teaches either, but I refuse to overly criticize ministers of the Lord, in order to support the good that the Lord has commissioned them to do, albeit imperfectly. I certainly don't support everything that Ray Smith taught either.

We should be promoting Christ, and ministers in a very guarded, critical way. I don't even support the apostles in an unbridled way--they also were imperfect. What I support is what Christ commissioned them to do, which was to teach the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

The Church Fathers did this also, though I don't regard their writings as "Scripture." We shouldn't view Ray Smith as author of "Scripture" either.

This verse is speaking to converted Elect believers ("my son"). Even with "eyes that can see" it is only with great effort and prayer that the Lord will reveal His treasure to them. The milk of the Word is learned quickly at conversion but "strong meat" takes years of dedicated study.

Yea, my wife and I call the "milk of the word" "baby gifts." When we're young Christians, God gives an outpouring of His Spirit to help us center our lives on Him. But the purpose is not for us to show the world how "charismatic" or "special" we are. Eventually, the gifts of the Spirit are designed to minister to others, and not to make us feel "elitist."

Though I am not sure, this prophecy quoted below may have been the last one she received.

"I am with you. I hear your prayers. You will know my Word when you are able to receive it. I am preparing you for my work. You have much to learn about yourself. You will show others my way. I will prepare you for the work I give you. I am doing my work in you. I am the Lord."

God may have used the pathway you took to help you get established. But the gift of prophecy is certainly not designed to promote an exclusive ministry. It is designed to exalt Christ alone.

My wife was brought to the Lord out of paganism by a most unworthy minister of the Lord, a fallen young man who believed he should share the Gospel with my wife outside of a bar. He was corrupt and compromised, and yet he was able to bring a real word of Christian Salvation to my wife. Later, she had to get away from him, but kept the Lord in her life ever since.

Since the church will follow the "type" the Nation of Israel presented, the church must likewise fall away and become children of the Devil. Because the Elect must travel that pathway, too, they must likewise fall away and be made 'worse than the first (Mat 12:43-45). And like with the Nation of Israel, the Lord will send a person to them in the spirit of Elijah to make the call of repentance.

I do believe there is a parallel between what happened to Israel in the Bible and what happens to the international Church. Truth in God's word is universal. The people of God in each nation follow the same path. Some remain, and some depart. Some stay true, and some compromise.

An Elect believer must keep the "sayings" of the book of Revelation. The book teaches the Pathway to Salvation and it has applied in the lives of each of Christ's Elect since that time. It is not a book about outward world events which come at the end of this literal age. The book teaches about the spiritual events which occur to the Elect as they travel the Pathway to Salvation.

I can't agree with this. The book of Revelation is very much about "outward world events at the end of this age." Christ is coming to establish a spiritual Christian reign on earth so that the Devil is bound and the Gospel can fulfill its mission unfettered. The promises God made to Abraham must be completed.

If Christ does not "come again" to called out believer before they die, they are not going to be a First Fruit of His harvest. It is for this reason that Christ comes "quickly" to each of His the Elect. Their days as a Man of Sin are shortened so that the ends of the ages come upon them now (1Cor 10:11).

This sounds like a form of elitism? And I certainly don't see anything in the Scriptures indicating Christ comes many times and to each individual? Certainly with our Salvation, Christ "comes" to us spiritually when he sends his gift of the Spirit! Perhaps that is what you mean?

Let's let the Lord refine both our doctrine and our moral lives, and not become intransigent and fixed upon what we think is our call and ministry. Each day we simply need to respond to the love of God by being loving ourselves. And that calls for our being attentive to *everything* He wishes to say to us. It is His will and not ours that must be done.

 

[Davy]

Of course His Righteousness is ONLY for those who believe on Him. Why would you think that those who disbelieve and reject Him should experience His Righteousness? Those who disbelieve and reject Him do not want His Righteousness.

But no one is prevented or excluded from believing on Him. Whosoever WILL may come.

Just making sure, because those on men's false doctrine of UNIVERSALISM think that everyone is going to be saved, that none will perish.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dear Randy Kluth,
Being baptized in the name of Jesus is the scripturally correct method.

I don't believe Water Baptism was given in the format of a particular "method." To use a certain word configuration is either a doctrinal orthodoxy or a "magical incantation." To say Baptism was given as a "method" seems to infer "magical incantation?"

Words do not have special powers to convey reality upon Baptism. They simply ensure that the Baptism being engaged in involves a true commitment to the true God.

Trinitarian or non-Trinitarian formulation or methodology was not the purpose at all. Baptism in Jesus' name was used indiscriminately with Baptism in the name of the Trinity. They both referred to the one God, who baptizes us with His Spirit for both Salvation and Ministry to others.

Baptism in Jesus' name was used synonymously with baptism in the name of the Spirit or in the name of the Father. Christ is emphasized only because he provided for our Salvation at the cross, which is necessary if our baptism is to have any meaning at all. Without redemption, our baptism means nothing.

And as you say, that baptism is "hardly necessary for God to move in someone's life". Water baptism is a symbol for what Christ will do spiritually to the believer.

Also, I was spiritually blind and unconverted when I went to be baptized in the name of Jesus.

Has it occurred to you that God could've been using whatever was available and nearby, and not because the instrument of your Salvation was completely pure? The message is Christ, and not the messenger! If you cannot maintain your walk with God apart from a "baptismal formula," then you are not just walking with the Lord--you are walking with the Lord and an idol. People are idols. God is the one God.

Also, you keep referring to "history" and the teachings of the church fathers. You have to understand that the church fathers (other than the NT writers and converted Elect of that time) are "wolves" who entered the church after Paul departed. The spirit of anti-Christ and the apostasy came and did not spare any of the flock. The church quickly fell away from the truth that the Apostles taught them. Nothing has changed in the church since that time.

What incredible ignorance has been deposited into your life through your imperfect ministers! Accept their pointing to the true Light. But don't take with it their bad attitude and critical spirit. Elitism will do damage to your love in Christ.

Christ called brothers and sisters into unity--not division! Particular doctrinal formulations were only given to ensure we are following the one true God--not to separate believers into camps with particular "incantations!"

As for discussing the Trinity Doctrine, I believe it is against forum policy. Correct me if I am wrong.

I know we're supposed to read forum rules, and I have. But I've been back and forth to a number of forums, and get them mixed up. It is likely there is a prohibition against anti-Trinitarianism, since Christian orthodoxy from the beginning has been Trinitarian.

That doesn't mean it's correct, but I believe it is. I see no difference between the quality of your Christianity and the quality of believers who are Trinitarian except that your belief causes a kind of sectarian spirit and elitism. Or, would you disagree?

Mat 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Here is what these two verses spiritually teach (my comments are in blue):

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (one Elect believer) be in the field (the world, place of "works"); the one shall be taken (the Man of Sin), and the other left (the child of God). 41 Two women (the spiritual nature of the believer) shall be grinding at the mill (place where the woman makes the leavened loaf); the one shall be taken (the Great Harlot, worsen carnal nature), and the other left (the new nature of the Holy Spirit).

I think you are misapplying this verse. I think it is a statement of judgment against both the "taken" and the "left behind." The Romans came in and took away into exile some Jews, and left others behind to till the fields for them. Both parties were judged.

The pattern in history is that a nation is called and begins with an outpouring of God's Spirit. Ultimately, people learn that this gift is not to serve themselves, but to serve God, and has a cost with suffering and lost popularity. The nation is enticed by false gods and bad lifestyles, and ultimately, the nation has to be judged.

But God always has a few who remain faithful. And at a time of national decline we must certainly come out from among the society in its evil practices. This is not elitism, but rather, being faithful and pure in a fallen society.

But the principle is true, that Israel was called to be a righteous nation, and fell away, making it imperative that an "elite" continue to walk in righteousness and to depart from the ways of the nation. That kind of "elitism" is acceptable to me. But an elitism between good Christians is cultism, and I would abandon that as fast as I can, if someone instilled that spirit in me!

 

[Randy Kluth]

.For most people, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, all of His teachings, either by word or deed, are also spiritual messages to those who have been blessed and have had their spiritual blindness healed (Mat 20:34).



Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In short, to “fall away” means to leave Grace through Faith and attempt to be acceptable to Christ by “works”. When a believer makes this attempt, they cannot be renewed by repentance. It is at that point that they have committed the sin that leads to death and have lost their salvation (1John 5:16). Losing one’s salvation is the same as to “fall backward and be broken”.

The truth of Christ is also presented to us “here a little, and there a little”. Because of such, we must assemble the pieces of truth before the whole truth of a matter can be understood. Once assembled, each piece of truth must then be added to the other pieces “line upon line and precept upon precept” so that the knowledge of God can be found. When found, it is like finding hidden treasure:

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Summary: To understand God’s Word, Christ must first give us a love for the truth, so much so that we are willing to give up all our carnal beliefs so that we can obtain the truth of Christ. We also need to realize that scripture is written in Christ’s spiritual language. His language utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages, however, many of those words carry meanings which are different from what “man’s wisdom teaches”. Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We are NOT to look out into the world for their meanings as so many people do. We are to also keep in mind that the truth of Christ in scripture is given “here a little and there a little”. Each piece must be assembled and stacked “line upon line” and “precept upon precept”. Then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the hidden treasure of Christ will be revealed.

For those who have been given eyes that can see and ears that can hear, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

I will now make a post which shows how Christ teaches us his truth with through an actual event of scripture.
Joe

Joe, Special Revelation is not equal to Kabbalism. When we focus upon Christ's word to our hearts, which is love, and upon his nature, which causes us to be Born Again, we are easily able to understand how Jesus applied the parables to the Righteous and to the Wicked. They aren't so cryptic that one needs a college course in cryptology.

None of this is meant to make us elitist, but to rather, set an example of love, humility, and purity. To look for "hidden messages" in the Scriptures is an exercise in futility, if our object is to set ourselves apart as one having special access to "hidden knowledge." I feel confident that the Spirit in you is not seeking special attention for you or for your particular sect?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dear Randy Kluth,

Here is the true meaning of the story of the woman taken in adultery:

All of the Christian cults, Mormonism, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to base their "restoration of the Church" on "special revelation," interpreting parables as applying to themselves. Please don't do that.

If you're a true Christian, and I believe you are, then pursue unity among Christians who are at all stages of Christian growth. Division confuses young Christians who are then apt to leave the entire Christian religion for some Pied Piper who claims to be "different" or "better."

Yes, we should depart from compromised or weak Christianity, and leave churches that fail to have standards sufficient to promote a life of spiritual service to the Lord. But there are churches in many different denominations who have good standards and good practices. We shouldn't use some doctrinal deviation to promote division among them.

I left the Lutheran church as a teen because I found it was too weak to help me grow. However, a friend in the same church became a Charismatic Lutheran minister, and is still going strong. I would listen to him preach any day of the week. You really have to be discerning wherever you go, and avoid divisiveness and elitism. Love is the rule.

 

[FaithWillDo]

All of the Christian cults, Mormonism, Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses claim to base their "restoration of the Church" on "special revelation," interpreting parables as applying to themselves. Please don't do that.

If you're a true Christian, and I believe you are, then pursue unity among Christians who are at all stages of Christian growth. Division confuses young Christians who are then apt to leave the entire Christian religion for some Pied Piper who claims to be "different" or "better."

Yes, we should depart from compromised or weak Christianity, and leave churches that fail to have standards sufficient to promote a life of spiritual service to the Lord. But there are churches in many different denominations who have good standards and good practices. We shouldn't use some doctrinal deviation to promote division among them.

I left the Lutheran church as a teen because I found it was too weak to help me grow. However, a friend in the same church became a Charismatic Lutheran minister, and is still going strong. I would listen to him preach any day of the week. You really have to be discerning wherever you go, and avoid divisiveness and elitism. Love is the rule.

Dear Randy Kluth,
I read all your replies. It doesn't look like I am going to be able to help you. You are still understanding God's Word in a carnal way (physically and outwardly) rather than in a spiritual way.

Just a couple of comments though. The church during the 1st century was taken over by Satan. The leaders of the church since that time are "ministers of Satan". John Hagee is one of those ministers as is all the church fathers which you still esteem.

Also, the Lake of Fire is merely a symbol for the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire. The Doctrine of Hell (along with the Doctrine of Free Will) is completely untrue and is the most blasphemous lie that Satan has taught the church. Christ could never do anything like it to anyone. Christ is loving and merciful and his entire work in this creation is to save all mankind. If you believe He is going to fail, then you do not understand the power of Christ nor His love for us. Mankind is merely clay in His hand and He will make us into the new vessel that He promised.

It's probably a good time to end our discussion.

I have only one recommendation for you and that is prayer.

This verse applies:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) to them that ask him?

One thing is certain though, Christ has you and I in exactly the place He wants us to be. Nothing happens within His creation that He does not plan and cause to happen. In the end, we will all be made into His children, either now or in the final age. What a glorious future we all have waiting for us!

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear Randy Kluth,
As you are probably aware, Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the physical Word of God which was written on tablets of stone and scrolls of paper. Since Christ is the spiritual fulfillment of the Word of God, He is the Word of God. As such, Christ not only teaches us through what He said but also by the events which are recorded in scripture.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

1Cor 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

For most people, it is easy to understand that the parables contain hidden spiritual messages. But since Christ is the Word of God, all of His teachings, either by word or deed, are also spiritual messages to those who have been blessed and have had their spiritual blindness healed (Mat 20:34).

Because Christ’s words are spirit, we must learn the spiritual language of Christ in order to understand God’s Word. I can’t stress this point enough.

I’ll demonstrate how to understand Christ’s spiritual language with this simple example:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. However, if we understand this verse literally, that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying.

Is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

The spiritual language of the Word of God utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages. However, Christ assigns meanings to the Hebrew and Greek words which are different from how they are commonly defined:

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using the word SWORD to teach us a spiritual message. To understand what this spiritual symbol represents, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture. In other words, we must compare spiritual things with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

From the verse presented above, it is easy to understand that the spiritual word SWORD represents the Word of God who is Christ.

Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who take up the Sword (those who are “called out”), must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Sword. This death is a necessary part of the conversion process which happens when the Word of God (Christ, the Sword) comes to a person and gives them the Baptism of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of Fire (judgment of the carnal nature):

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with Fire.

This conversion event is what the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost:

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of FIRE, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the HOLY SPIRIT, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the spiritual language of Christ, the Apostles took up the Sword and then died by the SWORD.

Spiritual understanding of scripture is further explained and expanded by Isa 28:10-12:

Isa 28: 9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Before a believer has their spiritual blindness healed, they will not be able to understand the spiritual teachings of the Word of God. This lack of understanding will cause them to “fall backward and be broken”.

This is the same message Christ presented in Mat 12-43-45.

Paul also discusses this same subject below:

Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and age-enduring judgment. 3 And this will we do, if God permit. 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come 6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance: seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

In short, to “fall away” means to leave Grace through Faith and attempt to be acceptable to Christ by “works”. When a believer makes this attempt, they cannot be renewed by repentance. It is at that point that they have committed the sin that leads to death and have lost their salvation (1John 5:16). Losing one’s salvation is the same as to “fall backward and be broken”.

The truth of Christ is also presented to us “here a little, and there a little”. Because of such, we must assemble the pieces of truth before the whole truth of a matter can be understood. Once assembled, each piece of truth must then be added to the other pieces “line upon line and precept upon precept” so that the knowledge of God can be found. When found, it is like finding hidden treasure:

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

Summary: To understand God’s Word, Christ must first give us a love for the truth, so much so that we are willing to give up all our carnal beliefs so that we can obtain the truth of Christ. We also need to realize that scripture is written in Christ’s spiritual language. His language utilizes the Hebrew and Greek languages, however, many of those words carry meanings which are different from what “man’s wisdom teaches”. Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We are NOT to look out into the world for their meanings as so many people do. We are to also keep in mind that the truth of Christ in scripture is given “here a little and there a little”. Each piece must be assembled and stacked “line upon line” and “precept upon precept”. Then, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the hidden treasure of Christ will be revealed.

For those who have been given eyes that can see and ears that can hear, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

I will now make a post which shows how Christ teaches us his truth with through an actual event of scripture.
Joe

Indeed, it is all parables.

 

[ScottA]

Dear Randy Kluth,
I read all your replies. It doesn't look like I am going to be able to help you. You are still understanding God's Word in a carnal way (physically and outwardly) rather than in a spiritual way.

Just a couple of comments though. The church during the 1st century was taken over by Satan. The leaders of the church since that time are "ministers of Satan". John Hagee is one of those ministers as is all the church fathers which you still esteem.

Also, the Lake of Fire is merely a symbol for the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire. The Doctrine of Hell (along with the Doctrine of Free Will) is completely untrue and is the most blasphemous lie that Satan has taught the church. Christ could never do anything like it to anyone. Christ is loving and merciful and his entire work in this creation is to save all mankind. If you believe He is going to fail, then you do not understand the power of Christ nor His love for us. Mankind is merely clay in His hand and He will make us into the new vessel that He promised.

It's probably a good time to end our discussion.

I have only one recommendation for you and that is prayer.

This verse applies:

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) to them that ask him?

One thing is certain though, Christ has you and I in exactly the place He wants us to be. Nothing happens within His creation that He does not plan and cause to happen. In the end, we will all be made into His children, either now or in the final age. What a glorious future we all have waiting for us!

Joe

Joe,

It should be understood by the servants of God, that these many generations and delusions of men and their times in the flesh, have not been for naught, but have been according to plan that the days be prolonged until the fulness of the gentiles has come. Now that the times are coming to a close, the message and promise of all truth, is best coupled with grace--which you do well. But having carried the water of the gospel unto the ends of the earth, many who have been wrong, even many victims, are to be carried across the finish. If that is what you are preaching for--turn over tables, rebuke, and correct, but do so as unto brothers, even as if you are the least of them...as that is the calling.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

It should be understood by the servants of God, that these many generations and delusions of men and their times in the flesh, have not been for naught, but have been according to plan that the days be prolonged until the fulness of the gentiles has come.

Dear ScottA,
The "times of the Gentiles" will not be fulfilled until the end of the final age. Then all Israel will be saved.

Salvation is not limited to this age as most people believe.

This age is only for bringing in the First Fruits of the harvest. The Elect are only the early portion of the harvest. They are not the full harvest. The main harvest comes at the end of the growing season which occurs the end of the final age. This is why Paul said the Elect have the "ends of the ages" come upon them now.

I am curious, what is your definition of the Gospel of Christ?

The church teaches a Gospel that basically says: Jesus Christ is mankind's Savior who died for our sins. If you accept Him as Lord, you will be covered by His blood and be saved. It is your "free will" choice to accept or reject His "offer". If you accept it, you will go to a place called heaven when you die. If you don't accept it, you will go to the Lake of Fire where you will suffer torment in literal fire for all eternity.

Here is my understanding:

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Christ came to give mankind "life" and He accomplished that goal at the cross. This was necessary because all mankind has sinned and the penalty of sin is death. But Christ came to give mankind more than just the same sinful life we have now. He came to give us a more abundant life, too. That life is a life free from sin along with a restored relationship with the Father.

To give mankind a more abundant life, Christ will come to each person who has ever lived and give them the gift of the Holy Spirit. He will then destroy (through judgment) the carnality of the person which will convert them into a new creation; a child of God who will never sin again.

When Christ's work is finished, this verse will be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I know some people want to translate the phrase "will have" (thelo) as "desires", BUT that makes no sense. The verse needs to say "will have" to support the event that will later be "testified" to have happened. The word "desires" does not require anything to be accomplished. It is an emotion. And if Christ only desires to save us, why would it need to be proven to be true at some future date? An emotion can be proven in the present. The translation of "desires" (or any other word) in verse 4 makes no sense in light of the phrase "to be testified in due time". The only reasonable conclusion is that the verse says that Christ will save all mankind and have all mankind come unto the knowledge of the truth. When that day arrives, mankind's salvation will be testified to be true.

Even if a person translates "thelo" as "desires", it doesn't change the meaning of the verse since God ALWAYS gets His desires. Since God desires to save all mankind, it will happen.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

If a person thinks that mankind's "will" is too strong for God to overcome, then they would be wrong:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Christ's work of saving mankind is now spiritual work which means it is done within mankind. Christ accomplishes His "will" by changing man's heart to match His "will". After Christ does His work in our hearts, we all "willingly" accept Him as Lord.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

A person's salvation ONLY happens in response to the work which Christ does within them. When Christ comes to a person, He gives them the gifts of the Holy Spirit and Faith. Until that happens, NO ONE can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him out.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In this lost spiritual condition we all have from birth, the ONLY WAY for a person to be saved is for Christ to come to us first and change us from within. Once Christ gives us the Holy Spirit (unknowingly to us), we ALWAYS confess Him as Lord. We will no longer reject Him or call Him accursed.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Also, Paul is the pattern for how Christ saves His Elect in this age:

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul “typed” the conversion process for the Elect. As He travelled the Damascus Road, he "typed" being called out from the world. Upon receiving the earnest of the Spirit, Paul immediately fell to the earth and called Jesus "Lord".

This event of receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit is how an unbeliever becomes a believer. It is not by their "free will" choice that it happens.

Paul hated Christ and was on his way to persecute Christians. Paul had no intention of becoming a Christian himself. But Paul did become a called out Christian because it was God's "will" for it to happen.

Christ came to Paul uninvited and without Paul's permission to give him the Early Rain. Paul wasn't even aware that Christ did this work within him because it was spiritual work which cannot be detected by human senses. But we do know that it happened because of the evidence of Paul's confession and his willingness to obey Christ.

Then after Paul typed being spiritually blind and having to be lead by the hand into Damascus (types Sodom/Egypt), Paul could not eat or drink for three days. This represents a believer's time in the wilderness where they cannot consume (eat) the truth of Christ or be covered by His blood (drink) of the New Covenant. In this spiritual condition, Paul fell away and lost his salvation. For this reason, it is necessary for Christ to "come again" with the Latter Rain of the Spirit. After Paul received the Latter Rain, he was "born again" and was then told to "eat meat".

Paul's conversion "typed" the pathway an Elect unbeliever must travel to become a child of God. This pathway is necessary because mankind's spiritual condition from birth is marred. This marred spiritual condition causes us all to become carnally minded. This is why mankind sins. Even Adam and Eve were carnally minded before they sinned and in fact, it was the reason why they sinned. And as God's Word says, the carnal mind hates the ways of God and cannot understand Him. Nor does the carnal mind seek God out from its own choice to do so. Mankind is utterly lost and cannot do anything to save themselves. Because of this lost and helpless spiritual condition, Christ MUST come to us and do all the work of saving us and He will do so without our invitation or permission.

God created mankind subject to vanity without our permission and He will make us righteous without our permission:

Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

This verse below restates this truth:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, AS SEEMED GOOD TO THE POTTER to make it.

God made mankind into a spiritually marred vessel without our permission and He will make again into a new vessel without our permission:

Our God truly loves us all and will do all that is necessary to save us all. He has a plan to accomplish it and He will not rest until the last person is saved.

This is the true Gospel of Christ.

Joe

 

[Randy Kluth]

Dear Randy Kluth,
I read all your replies. It doesn't look like I am going to be able to help you. You are still understanding God's Word in a carnal way (physically and outwardly) rather than in a spiritual way.

Apparently you've chosen divisiveness and elitism? There isn't a single carnal thing about what I wrote. Love is the rule. Unity among true Christians is the rule. Getting puffed up on your own spiritual revelations, to make your church somehow "superior," is what is carnal!

Just a couple of comments though. The church during the 1st century was taken over by Satan. The leaders of the church since that time are "ministers of Satan". John Hagee is one of those ministers as is all the church fathers which you still esteem.

Okay, I've tried, and now you've exposed yourself as a hater of the Church. Bye.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Because Israel will make an end of her sin of unbelief.

thats what it is all about

she will not longer play the harlot. And no longer reject God,

its not about sinless perfection.

Seems like you're changing your view as you go along. What you're saying here doesn't match up with what you were saying before.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Seems like you're changing your view as you go along. What you're saying here doesn't match up with what you were saying before.

Please explain how

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Jesus did not... fulfill that automatically, His Righteousness is ONLY for those who believe on Him.

Of course. We all know this.

So that omits how many peoples today that reject Him?

And? What is your point?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

what a joke man.

We are not discussing scripture.

Well, you're definitely not discussing scripture, man. That's for sure. You are giving all kinds of opinions in this thread and doing NOTHING to back them up with scripture. It's quite noticeable.

We are discussing your false claim that no one here believes God is done with Israel.

Give me the names of any posters posting in this thread who believe that. He is not done with any nation because he desires for all of the people of all nations to be saved.

or that they will nto be restored after the return of Christ when they repent.

Repentance is an individual thing, not corporate. Each individual must repent and put their faith in Christ in order to be saved. You have the wrong focus entirely.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Please explain how

You were indicating before that it's about putting a literal end to sin in Israel and in the world. Now you're changing your tune.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You were indicating before that it's about putting a literal end to sin in Israel and in the world. Now you're changing your tune.

nope, You need to learn how to read

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, you're definitely not discussing scripture, man. That's for sure. You are giving all kinds of opinions in this thread and doing NOTHING to back them up with scripture. It's quite noticeable.


Give me the names of any posters posting in this thread who believe that. He is not done with any nation because he desires for all of the people of all nations to be saved.


Repentance is an individual thing, not corporate. Each individual must repent and put their faith in Christ in order to be saved. You have the wrong focus entirely.

Anyone who says isreal will not be restored.. there are many

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

nope, You need to learn how to read

You need to learn how to communicate.

You had said this:

make an end of sin, is make an end of Israels sin against God.. this is not accomplished until Israel repent.. which is at the end of the 70th week.

This comes across as you saying that making an end of sin is making the literal end of Israel sinning against God. Yet, in your Premil view, sin does not come to an end at that point. So, your view makes no sense whatsoever.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Anyone who says isreal will not be restored.. there are many

Saying that Israel will not be restored as a nation in the way you think they will be and saying that God has given up on the people of Israel are two different things. The way that God restores people is by way of forgiving their sins and giving them the hope of eternal life by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. You read a verse like Acts 1:6 and completely ignore Acts 1:8 which talks about the way in which God restores people - spiritually. Giving them land is meaningless.

 

[Earburner]

Of course. But it did not extinguish God's True Church, which He has always preserved, and will always preserve.

Ever hear of the 7,000 who had not bowed to Baal? 1 Kings 19:18

That is precisely how history unfolded. God raised up His Reformers to liberate His True Church from the spiritual darkness and oppression of apostate Romanism.

You wouldn't be here without them.

It could be that the Reformation was God's "latter rain". The "former rain", which started out with great power and authority by God's Holy Spirit, had become severly hindered by the wisdom of men in the RCC, with their doctrines of men, exercising vain and foolish traditions. 1 Cor. 2
[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God [His Holy Spirit].