THE TRUTH OF DANIEL'S SEVENTY WEEKS PROPHECY

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Brakelite

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Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained "Future"?

Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.

If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written

(Four Hundred Ninety Years)

Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.

Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;

Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.

Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.

Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see 70 literal "Future" weeks or 490 days.

When the "Future" call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period in preparing to build.

62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off by the armies surrounding Jerusalem, this stops the building.

The 70th literal week will see (The Antichrist) revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.

The 3.5 year tribulation starts at this time.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The threads on Daniel 9 always bring out the worst in prophetic understanding, and this thread is going from bad to worse.
 

BarneyFife

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The threads on Daniel 9 always bring out the worst in prophetic understanding, and this thread is going from bad to worse.
I have to admit, the wholesale spiritualizing away of the 3 1/2 years between Calvary and the stoning of Stephen and the virtually immediate resulting initiative to take the Gospel to the Gentiles is a new one on me. Every wind of doctrine is truly blowing.

I just wonder where the key text is establishing this hermeneutic. I haven't seen it yet but, to be fair, I came in pretty late and I haven't had (and probably won't find) the time to read all of the OP's posts.

I've been engaged in some abortion debate and I'm probably better off moving on since, while being very important, that isn't the hill for Christians to die on, contrary to wildly popular belief.

How are you and your family doing these days? Well, I hope. I had a late-onset diabetes scare recently so I'm having to go NEWSTART full-tilt (which I should have done long ere this). :)

 
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RLT63

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The prince is Messiah. He is the only Individual identified as a prince in the passage.

Messiah the Prince directed the Romans in the destruction of Jerusalem. They were His people, His agents, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction.
No
 

Ronald David Bruno

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To believe that the 70 weeks prophecy was fulfilled when Christ was crucified would require Dan 9:24 to be fulfilled at that time. It was not and it is not fulfilled even to this day.

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Hi Joe,
Jesus fulfilled all that for those who believe.
70 weeks is the estimate, a rounded off time frame that Grabriel gave. It didn't have to be completed. It was an inclusive time frame, just as Jesus wasn't dead for a full 3 days (72 hours). It was 3 days inclusive. Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Even if you start the clock in Gethsemane the night before ( which would be Friday evening) and go to Sunrise Sunday, it's still not 3 full days. Some theologians will argue that Jesus died on Thursday to make the 3 days work - that's debatable.
"To finish transgression, put an end to sin, reconciliation with God, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up prophesy"... Jesus did that with His death and resurrection, an event that transcends TIME ITSELF. GOD operates outside of our time domain so in the spiritual realm/ heaven, IT'S A DONE DEAL. Jesus said tetelestai ( it is finished).
Jesus died for all sins for all time. Anyone who is saved does not have any sins on their account: past, present or future. The sins that dwell in the members of our flesh _ while we still live in earth _ are taken care of. We are to reckon that our fleshly selves are dead. We are in the "already but not yet" state of redemption. Salvatiin/redemption has not been fully consummated yet. We haven't been resurrected yet, but it is a reality spiritually. The moment we die, we go to God pure and spotless. So Jesus did put an end to sins with His death - for those who believe. And that is why the Bible and specifically the Gospel is sent out to the world, to give people the Good News, that we don't have to pay for our sins with death, Christ did and rose on the third day - as we will someday. All we have to do is believe in Him. "Fear him who can destroy both soul and body in Hell". Do you think that is an empty threat?

The transgression is still ongoing and mankind is still sinning
The lost do not believe and are still in sin.
Jesus s5ands at the door ( of their hearts) if only they open it and invite Him in, He will save them too.
Since the New Covenant is spiritual, so are the "works" of Christ. His "works" occur within mankind so as to convert us from being carnal, sinful creatures into children of God who will no longer sin.
That is all true up to this next passage ...
To accomplish this spiritual work within each person, Christ created a pathway that He will cause all mankind to travel. In this age, Christ is only doing His spiritual work within those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the Elect; the First Fruits of His harvest of mankind.
His First fruits were Israel. Then branches were cut off the vine so that the Gentiles could be grafted in.
The Elect are all inclusive, those written in the Book of Life. Not everyone is in that book.
Christ begins His work within a person when He comes to them and gives them the Early Rain. The Early Rain will give them the down payment of the Spirit (earnest amount) and a measure of faith. This is when an unbeliever is 'called out from the world" and when they enter the church. This event within the life of a person will commence the last 3 1/2 years remaining of Daniel's prophecy for them. If the person is "chosen", Christ will later "come again" to the called out believer and pour out the Latter Rain. This is the moment of conversion and when the individual is "born again" as a child of God. Judgment will then fall on the carnality of the person and destroy it. After they are fully converted, the individual will no longer sin and Dan 9:24 will be fulfilled within them.
"The raindrops keep fallen on my head ..."
Where did you attend church and/or where did you learn this doctrine. I am familiar with Daniel's 70th week Gap theory but this analogy of rain you use, have 't heard that.
The Gospel goes out, we either receive it or not. If we do, we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. He comes upon us. I wouldn't refer to it as rain. He is a person and the Word is truth - don't water it down. This "latter day rain" reminds of a phrase the Mormon's call themselves, Latter Day Saints.
Christ will repeat this spiritual process of salvation within every person who has ever lived. The Elect are saved in this age and the balance of mankind will be saved at the end of the next and final age.
He doesn't force Himself on anyone. He stands at thebdoor and knocks. One must open the door. We respond to the inner call and outer call. Do you understand the Parable of the Sower? Heaven is given to those who bare fruit. The seeds ( word) falls on fertile soil and is nourished, grows and produces fruit. The seed that falls on shallow soil or Rocky soil does not. " By their fruit you will know them".
All "end-time" prophecy is teaching on the spiritual events which will occur within the life of each Elect believer.
No. John was given visions of heaven but also things that will take place on earth. Literal descriptions are given about nations, mountains, oceans, pestilence, wars, famine, earthquakes and much death and destruction, etc.
The term "great tribulation" refers to the portion of the 3 1/2 years when the called out believer is made spiritually "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This is the time when a called out believer will "fall away" and will experience the Abomination of Desolation within themselves.
No. There will be a "great falling away". People that have little faith ( the seed was planted in shallow soil), when tested, will fall away from faith. But those who are born again, have faith, will endure any trial.
The Abomination of desolation is a controversial phrase. I would rather direct it and look at it's meaning. Search all that God called an abomination. Then search desolation. The acts of the Antichrist and the Beast will be as such: ten nations will gather and attack Jerusalem and cause desolation. The Beast (empowered ny Satan) is an abomination. A dragon with seven heads and ten horns is an abomination.
There is no single person who will appear at the end of this age and be called the anti-Christ (Man of Sin).
If there are many antichrists, than one would be an antichrist. You don't seem to understand Eschatology. Where you study?
The second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event within the lives of all the Elect.
No. Jesus came the first time as a suffering servant, the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world ( for those who believe on Him).
His Second Coming is to separate the wheat from the tares, His sheep from the the wicked, ungodly world that He will destroy. We will be resurrected ( raptured) upon His coming ( sometime in that 3 1/2 year period); some think before, some think after.
If Christ doesn't come to a person before they die, then they are not one of the Elect. They will have to wait until the end of the final age for Christ will appear to them
No. At death, you either have life or not, your state is fixed. There is no Purgatory.
Show me in the Bible where that is (within 66 books, not the Apocrypha).
 
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No Pre-TB

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RLT63,

I rarely ever agree with @covenantee, but I have to here.

Obviously, some people read these 2 difficult paragraphs as either the prince of the Romans or the Messiah.

Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


The people are the Romans and inadvertently the Jews. Here is why.

Matthew 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


The King, sent forth HIS ARMIES. They were the Romans. Why did I also mention the Jews as inadvertently?

Luke 19:44
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


They despised and rejected him. Even today, they blame the 70 AD destruction on other reasons and not their father's slaying Christ. In all that time they had, did they: finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy??

No, they killed the only begotten son of God. They slew his followers, they made war with God and tried to claim the inheritance for themselves. What about the rest of the passage?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Confirm the covenant with many - His shed blood on the cross for many, the remission of sins per Matthew 26:28
Midst of the week - Midway in the 70th week he caused the mosaic sacrifices to be obsolete by his death and resurrection.
Made desolate - Christ did say, Behold, YOUR house is left to you desolate.
Even until the consummation, it is poured on the desolate - The final destruction in 70 AD.

You still may disagree, many do.
Reading the prophecy as unfulfilled requires you to prove Christ or an apostle preached a +2k year gap where God's time paused somewhere in the Bible, and the prince that shall come isn't the only other Prince in the context. It would also have to be proven against Matthew 22:7.

Honestly, if you take this prophecy out and call it fulfilled, it has zero bearing on Pre-TB, Mid-TB, Post-TB, Pre-Wrath theories.
 
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covenantee

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Many that follow reformed preterist eschatology ignore the words "Even Until The Consummation" this is a future event unfulfilled, it's that simple

Daniel's AOD is future, and the bad guy causing the Abomination and Desolation will be present on earth to the "Consummation" Ultimate End

"Future" Events Unfulfilled

This "Future" figure will be present on earth making (Abomination & Desolation) to the (Consummation) or (The Ultimate End) "Future" Event(s) Unfulfilled

(The Future Consummation)

2 Peter 3:10KJV
10 But
the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2:
the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future"!

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations
he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Your delusions have been debunked innumerable times.

You're still afraid to acknowledge Daniel's grammar.
 

RLT63

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RLT63,

I rarely ever agree with @covenantee, but I have to here.

Obviously, some people read these 2 difficult paragraphs as either the prince of the Romans or the Messiah.

Know and understand this: From the issuance of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, until the Messiah, the Prince, there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks. It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of distress.
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


The people are the Romans and inadvertently the Jews. Here is why.

Matthew 22:7
But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


The King, sent forth HIS ARMIES. They were the Romans. Why did I also mention the Jews as inadvertently?

Luke 19:44
And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.


They despised and rejected him. Even today, they blame the 70 AD destruction on other reasons and not their father's slaying Christ. In all that time they had, did they: finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy??

No, they killed the only begotten son of God. They slew his followers, they made war with God and tried to claim the inheritance for themselves. What about the rest of the passage?

And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Confirm the covenant with many - His shed blood on the cross for many, the remission of sins per Matthew 26:28
Midst of the week - Midway in the 70th week he caused the mosaic sacrifices to be obsolete by his death and resurrection.
Made desolate - Christ did say, Behold, YOUR house is left to you desolate.
Even until the consummation, it is poured on the desolate - The final destruction in 70 AD.

You still may disagree, many do.
Reading the prophecy as unfulfilled requires you to prove Christ or an apostle preached a +2k year gap where God's time paused somewhere in the Bible, and the prince that shall come isn't the only other Prince in the context. It would also have to be proven against Matthew 22:7.

Honestly, if you take this prophecy out and call it fulfilled, it has zero bearing on Pre-TB, Mid-TB, Post-TB, Pre-Wrath theories.
When did the flood occur?
 

FaithWillDo

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Hi Joe,
Jesus fulfilled all that for those who believe.
Dear Mr. Bruno,
I noticed that you did not use scripture to support your understanding of the truth of God. I cannot be convinced of anything unless it is supported by scripture.

I will make a few comments below on what you stated.

You said:
"To finish transgression, put an end to sin, reconciliation with God, bring in everlasting righteousness, seal up prophesy"... Jesus did that with His death and resurrection, an event that transcends TIME ITSELF. GOD operates outside of our time domain so in the spiritual realm/ heaven, IT'S A DONE DEAL. Jesus said tetelestai ( it is finished).

I have recently heard this argument before but there are ZERO scriptures which teach what you believe. Your belief is a teaching of men.

Also, when Christ said it was "finished", He was referring to His physical work under the Old Covenant. His work under the New Covenant is still just getting started and won't be complete until the end of the final age when the last of mankind is saved. Only then will sin come to an end and death be defeated. To say that Christ's work on the cross was all that was needed greatly diminishes His work under the New Covenant. Without His work under the New Covenant, no man would ever be saved.

You said:
The lost do not believe and are still in sin.
Jesus s5ands at the door ( of their hearts) if only they open it and invite Him in, He will save them too.


All mankind starts off life in a spiritually carnal condition which causes us all to frequently sin. We will all remain in that condition until Christ comes each of us and gives us both the Early Rain (earnest amount) and the Latter Rain (the full payment). These are free gifts from Christ and are given to mankind at a time of His choosing. In this age, Christ is only giving those gifts to His Elect who have been chosen from the foundation of the world. For everyone else, they must wait on Christ to come to them in the final age. No man can open the door to Christ until Christ gives them these gifts.

Mankind from birth is spiritually blind and cannot know Christ or even have a desire to seek Him out:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

In that spiritually bankrupt condition, no man can make a choice to accept Christ as their Savior. If they could, this verse above would be a lie.

There is only ONE way which mankind can make a confession of faith:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Unless Christ comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Early Rain, they will never accept Him as their Lord. After they are given the Early Rain, the Spirit will change their heart and mind to accept Him as Lord. And because of this change, they will no longer be able to reject Christ. The only choice they can make is to call Jesus "Lord". This is how Christ saves a person. It happens solely because of His work and not our own.

Paul's conversion is the pattern for our salvation. Christ must come to us like He did with Paul as he traveled to Damascus to persecute the church. After Paul received the Early Rain, Paul fell to his knees and called Jesus "Lord". This is the only way an unbeliever can enter the church. It happens because of the work of Christ and not because of mankind's supposed free will ability to accept Him.

The gospel you are following is "another gospel" which teaches the "crooked way". This way is based on the works of man rather than on the works of Christ. Any believer who continues following the crooked way of works will be rejected by Christ upon their resurrection from the grave:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

These people are the "called out" but not chosen believers who have only received the Early Rain during their lifetimes. They do "wonderful works" but they believe those works earn them their salvation. However, that way was proven to be ineffective by the Old Covenant. Salvation can only come to us by the work of Christ under the New Covenant. The key to Christ doing His work within us is "faith" - and that "faith" is a gift from Christ since no man has any of their own. Once we have the full measure of faith (given with the Latter Rain), we will trust and depend solely on Christ for our salvation. We will then "rest" from our own works because Christ will do everything necessary to save us.

Christ is even the one who is the cause of our confession of faith:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.


Christ is the Savior and He does all the physical work (at the cross under the Old Covenant) and the spiritual work (New Covenant) necessary for the salvation of all mankind. Mankind has no ability to contribute anything toward their own salvation. We are His workmanship:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Because Christ the one who is responsible for our salvation, He will save us all because that is the mission His Father gave Him to do:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Do you have enough faith to believe that Christ can succeed in saving the world?

You said:
His First fruits were Israel.

Not true. The First Fruits are all the Elect ( both Jew and Gentile) who have become "spiritual" Jews. The physical descendants of Abraham are not viewed by Christ as being Jews under the New Covenant:

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

You must rightly divide the Word by the Old and New Covenants.

The Old Covenant is outward and physical and is based on the works of man. The New Covenant is inward and spiritual and is based on the works of Christ.

You are understanding scripture like Christ is still operating under the Old Covenant. Unless you repent of your works, you will be judged by the Law upon your resurrection.

To be saved, a person must approach Christ by faith alone. To have this ability, a person must be given the Early and Latter Rains. Only then will a person be saved and converted. The church has only been given the Early Rain which has left them spiritually blind. Because they are blind, they cannot understand the truth of Christ. Satan takes advantage of the church's blindness and come to each new believer and deceives them. With Satan's spirit within them, they start following "another gospel" which teaches a doctrine of "works". When a believer accepts Satan's gospel, they will "fall away" and lose their salvation. It happens to all new believers. The only solution for them is for Christ to "come again" (the second coming of Christ) and pour out the Latter Rain, With the Latter Rain, the believer's spiritual blindness will be healed and the Man of Sin will be revealed. The believer will then find that they are the Man of Sin who has been following the ways of Satan instead of Christ. With this knowledge of the truth, Christ will "appear" to the believer and destroy the Man of Sin. The believer will then be converted.

This spiritual process of salvation is what Paul experienced after being in Damascus for three days when He could not eat or drink and see. It was only after Christ came to Paul and poured out the Latter Rain did the scales fall off of Paul's eyes. He was then converted and was able to eat meat (truth of Christ).

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...
 
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FaithWillDo

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Hi Joe,
Jesus fulfilled all that for those who believe.
CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
"The raindrops keep fallen on my head ..."
Where did you attend church and/or where did you learn this doctrine. I am familiar with Daniel's 70th week Gap theory but this analogy of rain you use, have 't heard that.
The Gospel goes out, we either receive it or not. If we do, we are baptized with the Holy Spirit. He comes upon us. I wouldn't refer to it as rain. He is a person and the Word is truth - don't water it down. This "latter day rain" reminds of a phrase the Mormon's call themselves, Latter Day Saints.

I do not attend any churches and have not since I was converted in 2005. The churches of this world (all of them) are apostate and have been apostate since Paul's departing (death) in the 1st Century.

Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

The churches have been taken over by Satan and are following "another gospel". There is no truth in any of the churches since the 1st century.

After I was converted and was given "eyes that can see", the truth of scripture opened up to me and I came out from Satan's deceptions. Since that time, the Lord has been gracious to teach me His truth.

"Water" is the spiritual symbol for the Holy Spirit and is commonly referred to as "Rain" in scripture.

Jam 5:7 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receives the EARLY and LATTER RAIN. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

Psa 68:9 Thou, O God, didst send a plentiful RAIN (the Latter Rain), whereby thou didst confirm thine inheritance, when it was weary.


Our inheritance is salvation and salvation is being made into a child of God. The Elect's inheritance becomes "weary" when they are under Satan's influence in the apostate church.

Jer 3:3 Therefore the showers have been withholden, and there hath been no Latter Rain; and thou hadst a whore's forehead, thou refusedst to be ashamed.

The time in between the Early and Latter Rain is a time of drought (typed by Elijah's 3 1/2 years of drought) when we become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). At that time, our carnal nature becomes a Great Harlot who is indwelt with devils (Rev 18:2, the spirit of anti-Christ).

This 3 1/2 years is a spiritual symbol which represents the last 3 1/2 years remaining of Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. When the Latter Rain falls on the Elect believer, the "ends of the ages" come upon them and the last 3 1/2 years are fulfilled for them. When the last person is saved in the final age, the 70 weeks prophecy will be completely fulfilled and Dan 9:24 will be testified to be completed.

Hos 6:3 Then shall we know, if we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the RAIN, as the Latter and Early RAIN unto the earth.

The pathway to salvation begins for an unbeliever when they receive the Early Rain. At that time, they receive a "measure" of faith and will enter the church. After Satan's deceptions have fully corrupted the believer, Christ will come to them a second time and pour out the Latter Rain. This is their moment of salvation.

You said:
No. John was given visions of heaven but also things that will take place on earth. Literal descriptions are given about nations, mountains, oceans, pestilence, wars, famine, earthquakes and much death and destruction, etc.

John's vision was signified to Him which means it was presented in spiritual symbols. Those symbols represent "spiritual truths" and their meanings come only from scripture.

The prophecies in Revelation (like all end-time prophecies) teach the steps of the pathway to Salvation that Christ will cause His Elect to travel before they physically die. The Elect must "keep the sayings of the prophecies" to be saved:

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

If a person does not keep the sayings before they die, they have not been chosen to be a First Fruit of Christ's harvest of mankind.

Since the second coming of Christ is the spiritual event when He comes to an Elect believer to give them the Latter Rain, it necessitates that His second coming is a reoccurring event. This is exactly what scripture teaches:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Rev 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.


And because Christ must come to each of His Elect before they die, Christ says that He will come "quickly":

Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

The Elect's reward is salvation during the ages so that they can reign with Him in the final age for the purpose of bringing in the full harvest of mankind.

You said:
No. At death, you either have life or not, your state is fixed. There is no Purgatory.
Show me in the Bible where that is (within 66 books, not the Apocrypha).


There is no purgatory. Salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned by mankind.

The final age is for the purpose of saving the rest of mankind by judgment. It is not for the purpose of tormenting mankind in literal fire for all eternity - that is a blasphemous doctrine of the apostate church. There is no truth in it.

Here is the purpose for judgment:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Without judgment, mankind cannot be converted into a child of God. The old vessel must be destroyed so that it can be made into a new vessel:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

In this age, Christ is only bringing in His harvest of First Fruits. If a person has not been chosen to be a First Fruit, they will die in their sins and will be resurrected to judgment according to the Law. But before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Early and Latter Rains. This is taught in Joel chapter 2.

The "weightier matters of the Law" include judgment, mercy and faith which are all vital for mankind's salvation.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

I have run out of time for any additional comments. If you respond to me, please support your beliefs with scripture.

Joe
 
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ScottA

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Dear ScottA,
I am still waiting for you to explain what you are stating with scripture. I only receive my truth from God's Word and not from the teaching of men.

As for the quote of being the same yesterday, today and forever; this is speaking about the nature of God. I don't see how it relates to what you are trying to say.

And yes, Christ teaches His truth in scripture line upon line and a little here and a little there and in "another language". He teaches this way so that all called out believers will not be able to understand the truth He is teaching. And because they cannot understand, their door opens to Satan's deceptions via the spirit of anti-Christ. The believer will then fall backward and be broken (lose their salvation). This is how the apostate church was formed.

Only after Christ pours out the Latter Rain and heals the fallen away believer's blindness, will they be able to come out of Satan's deceptions. This is the moment of salvation.

Joe

Okay, one thing at a time:

Scripture is written on parchment, but that is not the full promise-- Is this too not written? Jesus answered in the way that you expect ("it is written"), which is certainly good to do even now. But He did so because of the times--that is, the finishing of the times of things written on parchment. But that was then and this is now, and the times are not the same, as these are rather the times of God's spirit being poured out on all flesh and our being lead [not only by the scriptures, but] by the Holy Spirit who rights on heart. So what--you purpose to hold back the Holy Spirit with an ultimatum and demand quotes of scripture, against those very scriptures that foretell these times as different? To which I will answer-- I have quoted and do quote, but without such constraint. But do not expect that all who have the Holy Spirit have all that is now written, or even written then...for again, it is here a little, there a little. So test, beware, but expect to hear what the Spirit says to the churches...or you will be passed over for unbelief, only to come unto all truth with your passing.

As for looking at and speaking "to all things as being the same yesterday, today, and forever", these are the times of all truth coming via the Holy Spirit that we should "be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect." Meaning, we should be learning to look at things the way He does--as being "the same yesterday, today, and forever", rather than on this worldly timeline in which all truth only comes "here a little, there a little." Can you do this--can you even begin to take on the perfection that Jesus said we are to become? And when did He say He would be perfected--and what day do you suppose this is? ...Try this with any one biblical topic--I will help you, and it will either open your eyes...or send you back to Egypt. Will you stay on course, or turn away?

As for "another language" and the falling away-- Good, you understand!

As for the latter rain--if you can receive it--this is that latter rain...which is not written on parchment.
 

No Pre-TB

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When did the flood occur?
Let me post the phrase you are asking about:

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

The flood was the armies sacking Jerusalem in 70 AD
Just to name a few though I could post more if you want: Revelation 12:15, Isaiah 59:19, Daniel 11:10, Jeremiah 51:42 Jeremiah 46:8

Look at how many times the Bible references flood and what it meant. The Jews used things around them to describe situations. Have you never read Jude?

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Benson says, The end thereof shall be with a flood — The symbol of invading armies:

Isaiah 8:7
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

Gill says,
and the end thereof shall be with a flood: the end of the city and temple, and of the whole nation, should be by the Roman army, which, like a flood, would overspread the land, and carry all before it. It denotes the number, power, and irresistible force of the enemy, and the sad devastation made by them:
 
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Ronald David Bruno

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I do not attend any churches and have not since I was converted in 2005. The churches of this world (all of them) are apostate and have been apostate since Paul's departing (death) in the 1st Century.
That explains it. You are leaning on your own understanding.
You are misled by Satan and your own lack of faith in God.
God is sovereign, which means He is in control. Think about it, if God is in control, don't you believe that He would protect His Church, the Body of Christ, from total corruption? He does, we have e faith. Do you think He would allow Satan to rule the Body of Christ? Not a chance. Nothing can separate us from the love of God. The church in 1900 had 500 million believers. Now there are 2.64 Billion. That's growth. That is the Power of God who saves. To think like you, everyone would be secluded and separated from eachother, not trusting anyone, isolated and alone. Satan wants us isolated, separated from the Body. He influenced us to do so during the pandemic. But many churches fought against that control. Kids are isolated on their phones and computers, that is what Satan wants. We are strong when we group together, stick together. We are weak and vulnerable when we are alone.
There are problems in the Church, false doctrines, false teachers, tares within --just like in the 1st Century. Read about the Seven Churches in Revelation. Only two did not receive a rebuke, the rest needed to repent of something. No single church is perfect but we have seen the Holy Spirit move, inspire, guide, heal, lead, grow and love the Church. I had a wonderful Spirit-filled pastor for a dozen years. I've listen to many on the radio and so there is good teaching out there. What good would faith in Christ be if it looked like He failed every church all around us?
The churches have been taken over by Satan and are following "another gospel". There is no truth in any of the churches since the 1st century.
Wow, what good is your faith if you can't see the good that God has done and is doing all around you?
BTW, this verse is speaking if a farmers crop that gets an early rain or latter rain.
"See how the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently for it until it receives the early and latter rain." What it is saying is to be patient and wait on the Lord.
You really needed a good teaching church for the past 15 years. That was gross negligence on your part, pride or this negative (every church is controled by Satan pit that he put you in).
We're done Joe.
 
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No Pre-TB

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I do not attend any churches and have not since I was converted in 2005. The churches of this world (all of them) are apostate and have been apostate since Paul's departing (death) in the 1st Century.
What happened to not forsaking the assembling of ourselves? Sounds like you haven't been to a good church. There are plenty!
 
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RLT63

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Let me post the phrase you are asking about:

and the end thereof shall be with a flood,

The flood was the armies sacking Jerusalem in 70 AD
Just to name a few though I could post more if you want: Revelation 12:15, Isaiah 59:19, Daniel 11:10, Jeremiah 51:42 Jeremiah 46:8

Look at how many times the Bible references flood and what it meant. The Jews used things around them to describe situations. Have you never read Jude?

These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Benson says, The end thereof shall be with a flood — The symbol of invading armies:

Isaiah 8:7
Now therefore, behold, the Lord bringeth up upon them the waters of the river, strong and many, even the king of Assyria, and all his glory: and he shall come up over all his channels, and go over all his banks:

Gill says,
and the end thereof shall be with a flood: the end of the city and temple, and of the whole nation, should be by the Roman army, which, like a flood, would overspread the land, and carry all before it. It denotes the number, power, and irresistible force of the enemy, and the sad devastation made by them:
It still wasn’t the Jews who destroyed the Temple and overspread the land