This really grabbed me today!

[stunnedbygrace]

Person A admits they could be wrong
Person B claims to be 100% certain

Now tell me who the narcissist is...

Tsk! What do you want from me? Both verses are true. I am 100% certain that both verses are true. How have you twisted my believing every word from God to be true into me being a narcissist? You want I should say maybe some of them aren’t true? I would be lying if I did.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Should we put the verse to the Clinton test?

John says: “And He is God.”
Should we say it depends on what the word “is” means…?

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

This one is better

 

[Hidden In Him]

This one is better

View attachment 23402

LoL!

Only play the John Calvin card when you're really, reeeally ticked off.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Everytime you do this, you deny the Father and the Son.

On the contrary, I am highlighting the true relationship of Father and son. I am highlighting what Jesus and the apostles taught about that relationship....not what the apostate church decreed over three hundred years after Christ died.
All the Bible writers were Jewish, so they did not all of a sudden join a new religion, with completely new teachings. Jesus revealed that it was the Pharisees who had altered Jewish perceptions contained in their scripture....liars, just like their "father". (John 8:44)

 

[Aunty Jane]

Do you know of any other of whom the Father said, "This is My Son, hear ye Him"?

Jehovah has one “only begotten son”.....”monogenes” means an “only child”, a unique “one of a kind”.....so the natural question to follow that statement is to ask “how is he unique” and unlike other “sons of God” when there are millions of them? Or do you just shrug, make assumptions, and think it doesn’t matter?

Does the Bible answer that question truthfully? The answer is “yes”....but those who want Jesus to be "God", (even in a binary sense) don’t want to hear it.
Can Jesus be endowed with “divinity” without being “deity”? The Bible answers “yes”! But you need to really study the Bible to find the answers. Its "hidden treasure", remember?

Yes. A Father. And your point?

The pre-human Jesus was God’s “only begotten” way before his human birth. God was a “Father” when he created his “firstborn” who was the “image” of the one who caused his existence. (Colossians 1:15) Jesus himself said he was "the beginning of God's creation". (Revelation 3:14)
He was "in the beginning" "with God" (John 1:1).....can he be "with God" and at the same time BE God?

You are correct. But you are relying on your cleverness to debate and obfuscate rather than simply look for truth. In the scripture you quote above, indeed that is a unity of purpose and agreement, just as you say. But in the scripture I quoted , the one you are attempting to explain, is far far more than a uni9ty of purpose and agreement, because the Jews took up stones to kill Jesus. For believing He agrees with God?

It is the same expression in both instances.....yet you need them to be different because they expose the error that many want to cling to.
The Jews took up stones to kill Jesus, not because he was claiming to be God, (he never once did) but because they wanted to pin a charge of blasphemy on him in order to get rid of him. Under Roman law the Jews had no legal right to execute anyone. But the Pharisees wanted a public execution so that all would see that this “fake Messiah” was of no consequence. He had made them look bad and they wanted him silenced, permanently.

John 10:31-36...
“The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I said, you are gods’? 35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?” (NASB)

There it is.....Jesus had an ideal opportunity to clear this up once and for all....they were wanting to stone him anyway....but what did he say? What did he confess to being? Read it...

Nonsense. Every woman in the line of descendants from Eve, particularly in Jewry, hoped to be the mother of the Messiah. In fulfilment of Genesis 3:15

In your haste to prove me wrong you overlooked something important.....becoming the mother of the “son of God” was not something that any woman expected. Messiah was expected to be a mortal man, born of human parents, who would lead the nation back to their autonomous state. Jesus was not a god/man, because he had to die to redeem the human race. If Jesus was God then he was an immortal. Immortals cannot die, let alone be put to death by other mere mortals.

Who is He heir to? Is He not a Prince? Does that not make Him a part of the Royal family?

Indeed, but it’s a royal family of two. A Sovereign Ruler and his heir.
Humanity lost God as their rightful Sovereign when they rejected his kingship and chose to obey his enemy. A barrier was created because nothing sinful can come before the Sovereign of the Universe. So lovingly, this Sovereign appointed a “mediator” between himself and mankind so that communication with him could remain open. The mediator could not be God because he was the facilitator of that communication. He was the “go-between”. (1 Timothy 2:5)

There are so many ways that demonstrate why Jesus could not be “God” even though he was a divinely created being. He can be “theos” without being “ho theos”. You guys just can't seem to get your heads around this.

Oh please. I thought better of that from you, thinking you would use that intelligence you no doubt have. The use of such straw men and ridiculous suggestions does you no credit.

Oh please...right back atcha

.....the best form of defense is attack, apparently....you know your opponents have run out of argument when it gets personal.

This topic is not about you or me....it is a very serious subject...and if we make wrong assumptions based on a doctrine that was concocted by the “weeds” of Jesus parable, (sown by the devil) then no matter how we stretch it or twist it....if it was wrong in the first place, it’s still wrong now.

 

[Daniel777]

Father, Son (Jesus) and Holy Spirit...three persons, one God...here's an interesting article:

The term Godhead is found three times in the King James Version: Acts 17:29; Romans 1:20; and Colossians 2:9. In each of the three verses, a slightly different Greek word is used, but the definition of each is the same: “deity” or “divine nature.” The word Godhead is used to refer to God’s essential nature. We’ll take a look at each of these passages and what they mean.

In Acts 17, Paul is speaking on Mars Hill to the philosophers of Athens. As he argues against idolatry, Paul says, “Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device” (Acts 17:29, KJV). Here, the word Godhead is the translation of the Greek theion, a word used by the Greeks to denote “God” in general, with no reference to a particular deity. Paul, speaking to Greeks, used the term in reference to the only true God.

In Romans 1, Paul begins to make the case that all humanity stands guilty before God. In verse 20 he says, “The invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse” (KJV). Here, Godhead is theiotés. Paul’s argument is that all of creation virtually shouts the existence of God; we can “clearly” see God’s eternal power, as well as His “Godhead” in what He has made. “The heavens declare the glory of God; / the skies proclaim the work of his hands” (Psalm 19:1). The natural world makes manifest the divine nature of God.

Colossians 2:9 is one of the clearest statements of the deity of Christ anywhere in the Bible: “In him [Christ] dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” The word for “Godhead” here is theotés. According to this verse, Jesus Christ is God Incarnate. He embodies all (“the fulness”) of God (translated “the Deity” in the NIV). This truth aligns perfectly with Colossians 1:19, “God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him [Christ].”

Because the Godhead dwells bodily in Christ, Jesus could rightly claim that He and the Father are “one” (John 10:30). Because the fullness of God’s divine essence is present in the Son of God, Jesus could say to Philip, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (John 14:9).

In summary, the Godhead is the essence of the Divine Being; the Godhead is the one and only Deity. Jesus, the incarnate Godhead, entered our world and showed us exactly who God is: “No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known” (John 1:18; cf. Hebrews 1:3).

What is the Godhead? | GotQuestions.org

 

[stunnedbygrace]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In another translation: 1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.


10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him.

18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.


Unequivocal. Quite plain. Not confusing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This is an assumption.

No its not.....you need to do some study on what the difference is between "the word" and "the Word".
Strongs outlines what the word "logos" means.....

"of speech
discourse

1. 
   
   • the act of speaking, speech

1. 
   
   • a word, uttered by a living voice, embodies a conception or idea
   • 
     what someone has said
     
     1. a word
     2. the sayings of God
     3. decree, mandate or order
     4. of the moral precepts given by God
     5. Old Testament prophecy given by the prophets
     6. what is declared, a thought, declaration, aphorism, a weighty saying, a dictum, a maxim."

Do you see that "logos" means a variety of things and context dictates what is being said.

The reason why Jesus was given the title "Logos" before he ever came to this earth is because he has always acted as his Father's spokesman.
He is the one who spoke to God's earthly servants in his Father's behalf.

We see this demonstrated in the case of Abraham at Mamre. (Genesis 18) Three angels materialized and informed Abraham of their assignment. They were received hospitably by Abraham and his wife and after delivering their message to him concerning the child that they would have, (Isaac) two of them journeyed onto Sodom to rescue Lot and his family from the impending catastrophe that was about to befall those two evil cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. The one remaining, was identified as Jehovah.
Since "no man has ever seen God" (John 1:18) this angel was his Logos or spokesman....his representative.

The scripture in Isaiah you quoted below is about Jehovah's words or utterances that come out of his mouth....it is about the fulfillment of his declared will and purpose concerning the earth and its inhabitants....and the rescue mission that he sent his son to carry out.
He had stated his intentions for the future in the scripture he provided, but I am afraid that the 'dancing' and twisting of God's word has steered many down the wrong path....God warned that the devil would do this.....so, who are the victims and when did the deception begin? (Matthew 7:13-14)

Isaiah 55:10-11
[10]For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
[11]So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

when He ha accomplished the Father's will, He went to the cross, and we hear Him say,

"It is finished!" And it didn't end there, because He is risen and sits at the right hand of the Father ....our Great High Priest who ever intercedes for His people!

This is true...he was to sit at the right hand of his Father to wait for something.....
Psalm 110:1-2...(Tanakh)
The word of the Lord to my master; "Wait for My right hand, until I make your enemies a footstool at your feet." אלְדָוִ֗ד מִ֫זְמ֥וֹר נְאֻ֚ם יְהֹוָ֨ה | לַֽאדֹנִ֗י שֵׁ֥ב לִֽימִינִ֑י עַד־אָשִׁ֥ית אֹֽ֜יְבֶ֗יךָ הֲדֹ֣ם לְרַגְלֶֽיךָ:
2The staff of your might the Lord will send from Zion; rule in the midst of your enemies. במַטֵּ֚ה עֻזְּךָ֗ יִשְׁלַ֣ח יְ֖הֹוָה מִצִיּ֑וֹן רְ֜דֵ֗ה בְּקֶ֣רֶב אֹֽיְבֶֽיךָ:"

David's "Lord" here is " יְהֹוָ֨ה " (Yahweh/ Jehovah)......his "master" is the Messiah, whom David knew about from prophesy, but his appearance was yet future. He is at present "subduing in the midst of his enemies".

It doesn't matter how hard you try to dance around the truth, it's still the truth. The scripture in John chapter one uses the same word for God the Father as it does for the Word that was made flesh and dwelt among men. It can't mean two separate things. And plus ....since

all things were made by Him (the Word that was made flesh and dwelt among men) and without Him was not anything made that was made .....what you're saying is that a (little "g") "god" is the Word of God and is the Creator who made everything?? Twist, twist, twist ....it will never work and will never be the truth.

Well, the truth speaks in harmony with all scripture....and you have been shown why they are two separate beings...one is the true God "Yahweh" and the other is his created son and "holy servant"......I didn't invent that.....the apostle Peter said it...twice. (Acts 3:13; Acts 4:27) Can God rightly be his own servant? Even Jesus said that there is only one true God...(John 17:3)

Revelation 3:14....Jesus says of himself...."These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God".

There is more scripture proving that Jesus is not God, than there is proving that he is.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

And the passage in my op says, He existed before anything was created. How did He exist before He was born a man? How did He exist and create everything we see before He was born?

Unequivocal. Plainly stated. Not confusing.

 

[Aunty Jane]

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

In another translation: 1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.


10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him.

18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who is himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.


Unequivocal. Quite plain. Not confusing.

Extremely bad translation....

 

[Aunty Jane]

And the passage in my op says, He existed before anything was created. How did He exist before He was born a man? How did He exist and create everything we see before He was born?

Unequivocal. Plainly stated. Not confusing.

If Jesus is a unique "son" among millions of other "sons of God"....why is it so impossible for you to understand that Jesus was a unique spirit being before he came to this earth to be born as a human? He had a role in heaven from the beginning, as his Father's 'right hand man'. So what beginning is this, since the true God is an eternal Being, having no beginning or end?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Extremely bad translation....

It’s two different translations, NIV and NLT. Here are more translations.

NKJV: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLV: 1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
NASB: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

If Jesus is a unique "son" among millions of other "sons of God"....why is it so impossible for you to understand that Jesus was a unique spirit being before he came to this earth to be born as a human? He had a role in heaven from the beginning, as his Father's 'right hand man'. So what beginning is this, since the true God is an eternal Being, having no beginning or end?

I have given many verses and passages.
If John says: He was God, why is it so impossible for you to believe He was God?
John touched Him, physically, was there with Him for at least three years. How is it that you understand more than John? Why should we listen to you but not John?

 

[Aunty Jane]

It’s two different translations, NIV and NLT. Here are more translations.

NKJV: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
NLV: 1 The Word (Christ) was in the beginning. The Word was with God. The Word was God.
NASB: 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Have you tried the Greek Interlinear? The Christian scriptures were written in Koine Greek.....what does the Greek say that the English translations are missing?

"In en the beginning archē was eimi the ho Word logos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi with pros · ho God theos, and kai the ho Word logos was eimi God theos."

When the Jews stopped pronouncing the divine name, the polytheistic Greeks had no word for a "god" with no name. So when it came to speaking about the (then) nameless God of the Jews, the only way to differentiate him was with the definite article "ho" (the).
We use this ourselves when we want to differentiate someone with the same name as a celebrity.....e.g. if Brad Pitt was invited to a function that you were attending, what is the first thing you would ask?...."You mean THE brad Pitt?"

So seeing John 1:1 in Greek something becomes obvious, an omission that is ever so small, but very important in meaning.
The first mention of "theos" is with the definite article "ho theos" (THE God) but the second mention is minus the definite article. So the first "theos" is Jehovah, but the second "theos" is not. John 1:1 in Greek is not the same as the way it is widely translated in English.

If God's name was still in use that scripture would read "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Jehovah/Yahweh and the word was a divine being."

Its all about the translation of "theos". It was "ho Logos" who became flesh, not "ho theos".

We are all at liberty to form our own opinions about this issue.....but there is a lot at stake because putting another 'god' in the Father's place is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3)
In Matthew 7:21-23, Jesus rejects those who are breaking God's law.....but these ones didn't realize that their worship was never acceptable in the first place...

By saying "I never knew you"...."get away from me", Jesus was rejecting them as his disciples. So this is no small issue.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I have given many verses and passages.
If John says: He was God, why is it so impossible for you to believe He was God?
John touched Him, physically, was there with Him for at least three years. How is it that you understand more than John? Why should we listen to you but not John?

That is the whole point...you are not listening to John at all....you are listening to deceived translators who were intent on promoting something the rest of the Bible does not teach.

Paul spoke for all of the apostles when he said...1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us,

There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created,
and for whom we live.
And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things were created,
and through whom we live." (NLT)

John did not hold a different belief.

 

[Lambano]

When the Jews stopped pronouncing the divine name, the polytheistic Greeks had no word for a "god" with no name. So when it came to speaking about the (then) nameless God of the Jews, the only way to differentiate him was with the definite article "ho" (the).

A brief sampling of the places in the NT and the LXX where θεὸς ("Theos", god or God) is used in the nominative case does confirm that when referring to the God of Israel, θεὸς is used with the article, "ὁ θεὸς".

My Greek text book, The Basics of Biblical Greek has a break-out section on John 1:1. The sense of the verse in Greek is, "What God was, the Word was". Whether that supports Stunned By Grace's position or Aunty Jane's position, I'll let y'all debate.

 

[Aunty Jane]

A brief sampling of the places in the NT and the LXX where θεὸς ("Theos", god or God) is used in the nominative case does confirm that when referring to the God of Israel, θεὸς is used with the article, "ὁ θεὸς".

My Greek text book, The Basics of Biblical Greek has a break-out section on John 1:1. The sense of the verse in Greek is, "What God was, the Word was". Whether that supports Stunned By Grace's position or Aunty Jane's position, I'll let y'all debate.

We all have choices Lambano...hopefully we will make the right ones....

 

[Lambano]

We all have choices Lambano...hopefully we will make the right ones....

I appreciate that you're concerned about my soul.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That is the whole point...you are not listening to John at all....you are listening to deceived translators who were intent on promoting something the rest of the Bible does not teach.

Paul spoke for all of the apostles when he said...1 Corinthians 8:5-6...
"There may be so-called gods both in heaven and on earth, and some people actually worship many gods and many lords. 6 But for us,

There is one God, the Father,
by whom all things were created,
and for whom we live.
And there is one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things were created,
and through whom we live." (NLT)

John did not hold a different belief.

You will not change my mind. God teaches me in my own language. The Holy Spirit guides me in my own language. You must worship only the one true God and in Revelation, Jesus is worshipped. But I’m supposing that’s a mistranslation too, right?