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Featured Tribulation

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by n2thelight, Sep 20, 2016.

  1. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    So whats the difference between all the Christians that have and are now going through tribulation,and those who some how be raptured to escape the last trib?
     
  2. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    We have not yet experienced the "last days" of the one 'seven'.

    Rev 13:3b And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 they worshiped the dragon because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, " Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?" 5 There was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies, and authority to act for forty- two months was given to him. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, that is, those who dwell in heaven.

    7 It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain.

    What we are seeing in various muslim and atheistic communist countries is the hatred that the wicked have toward God directed at us as well.

    There are three beasts in Revelation 13. (1) The beast which comes out of the sea made up of three animals - which is the same as fourth terrible beast of Daniel 7, and (2) the beast of a man who is given authority to speak - which is the same as the little horn of Daniel, and (3) the beast coming up out of the earth, or of the "land" who is the false prophet who facilitates the making of a talking image - which is the same as the abomination of Daniel 9:27 - which is not of the beast of a nation which is the fourth terrible beast, but the beast of a man - the anti-Christ.

    There are two dragons in Revelation. (1) The dragon who is Satan in Revelation 12:7, and (2) the dragon which is possessed along with the two beasts of men, one of the "sea" and the other of the "land", who are the anti-Christ and false prophet, in Revelation 16:13.

    We currently do not have the formation of the fourth terrible beast. It hasn't happened yet. Nor do we have an overreaching dictator who rises within its ruling structure of ten ministers, or Kings, who is worshiped by the wicked. When we do - you're going to see "war" waged upon us here, in the Americas and to a lessor extent in Europe (which has very little Christianity left in it, so little that my congregation actually has missionaries in France - and that was before the muslim population there exploded).

    This "war" will exceed the politically correct movement which has attacked Christianity along the lines of sex with the homosexuals and transgenders. Both are an anathema to God, and both are being foisted upon the churches, so much so that many have openly accepted sin as good. This is typical of the Church of Laodicea, and that is the last Church-type which becomes prominent in the "last days".

    The Great Tribulation, as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, comes AFTER the (midpoint) abomination of Daniel, and again, I would say that is specifically related to Daniel 9:27. Likewise in Revelation, we can see this abomination coming with the talking image. The basis for the Great Tribulation comes with TWO LAWS that are pronounced and enacted with the abomination that is the talking image of the anti-Christ: (1) worship or die, and (2) take the 'mark of the beast' or you can't buy (food) or sell (labor).

    Rev 13:15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    We are not to follow these two laws! This will cause Great Tribulation to those who follow Christ Jesus. The Elect will die wholesale. The Elect will die to the point of extinction - but - before that happens, the Harvest, the Rapture, will come - when after the bridegroom tarries, (Mt 25:5), Jesus Returns on the Day of the Lord.

    So when you read about the Harvest in Revelation 14:14-17, compare the imagery and action to what Jesus foretold in the Olivet Discourse of Mt 24:29-31. I put it to you, the reader, that those two events are the same.
     
  3. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    Guess what Im trying to say is,what is there to fear.

    I mean nothing is worse than death,which Christ told us not to fear


    Matthew 10:28King James Version (KJV)
    28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    Christians have been and are to this day being tortured and killed.So again I ask what's the difference?

    Did not Christ tell us there would be tribulation throughout our lives



    John 16:33King James Version (KJV)
    33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

    It's a serious question because must do not know what the trib is all about,and most are looking to be raptured out of the trib,which scripture does not teach



    Matthew 24:13King James Version (KJV)
    13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    So I guess my next question is,when is the end?It can't be this so called rapture because as it's taught,it's not the end!!!
     
  4. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    The difference is, is that the Great Tribulation surpasses all the normal, (or abnormal - depending on your point of view -) tribulation we must continually endure and have endured including outright persecution by both state and church.

    Mt 24:21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved;

    So since this is the worse ever - since the "beginning" of the world, until now (A.D. ~30) - NOR EVER WILL ~ THAT makes the Great Tribulation the worst ever! It also makes it a specific and unique time - never to be repeated.

    This sets this period apart from any Roman persecution during the first three centuries, worse than the Spanish Inquisition, and even worse than the Holocaust with 6 million killed and even more affected.
     
  5. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Well, I'd say it's the end of the Church Age, because after we're gone, the basis for salvation through faith has concluded. Once Jesus Returns, the only ones who stand a chance for eternal life are the Remnant Jews and the meek of other nations who survive the Wrath of God in the second half of the one 'seven' and so, getting to the 1335th day, enter the Sabbath Millennium of Christ' Iron Rule.
     
  6. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Hi Marcus, life goes on as usual does it?
    And your errors about the end times continue unchanged.
    Those who promote a rapture removal of living people to heaven, have the obligation to prove their theory with clear and unambiguous scripture. When you do that, you also need to tell us all why God has changed His mind from His original Plan of having a people in the holy Land, who would be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.

    The other serious error you promote is the Jews still as God chosen and the Church as something else. The teachings of Jesus and the Apostles, prove that the Jews have lost the Kingdom and the Church is now the Israel of God. Galatians 6:16 The Church consists of people from every tribe, race, nation and language, that will include some Messianic Jews.
    Therefore all the prophesies about Israel in the last days refer to the Lord's true righteous people, namely: the Church.

    So your teaching that 'we will be gone', is a false hope and has fooled many into a careless attitude, so they may be so shocked and terrified when God does take action and renounce Him, to their eternal discredit. Remember that teachers will be more severely judged. James 3:1
     
  7. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    I'm not really affected by your delusions keras, writer of Bible study guides on the internet that no one publishes and no one reads.

    You do not define the truth; nor is what you think true necessarily true.

    And just because you think something, does not mean everyone else who doesn't share your delusions is wrong.
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    The usual put down and nasty aspersions.
    As I said: those who promote a rapture removal and 2P2P, have an obligation to prove their beliefs, as they aren't found in scripture.

    Re the Great Tribulation: the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls will happen in the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns. When Satan is kicked out of heaven, Revelation 12:12
    But the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster, the next prophesied event, is the one we should all know about and be prepared for.
     
  9. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Just because you have some queer ideas like when the sun shines brighter on the Remnant that that means the sun is going to have a coronal mass ejection and fry the earth, and another queer idea that the Great Multitude when standing before the Father on His Throne in the Temple, in Heaven is somehow on the earth because that is where the 144,000 are mustered in the previous verses of Revelation 7 ~ doesn't mean that you have now proved your belief vis-a-vis Scripture.

    No telling what 2P2P means... that's a new one.

    So as long as you are vying to destroy other ideas, and you cannot let them stand, I stand in opposition to your queer, delusional ideas and I will say that you have no credibility.

    The Great Tribulation is NOT the seven Trumpets and seven Bowl Judgments.
    The Great Tribulation comes into effect with the midpoint abomination: the talking image of a man set up in the Temple.
    And on the heels of that abomination - two laws are put into effect by the False Prophet: worship or die / take the mark of the beast or don't buy or sell.
    The Great Tribulation is a shortened amount of time when the Elect are martyred.
    Jesus said it in the Olivet Discourse.

    The Great Tribulation is cut short by the otherwise unexpected Day of the Lord.
    No one knows when this is going to happen; not you, nor I. Not even the Son of God knows when the Day of the Lord will come.
    You profess to know the Day...

    No Wrath comes WITH the sixth Seal.
    The burning of the tares in the field of this world happens AFTER the Harvest of the wheat to the barn of Heaven.
    Only when the seventh Seal is broken does the Wrath of God go forth with the first Trumpet Judgment and Revelation 8 is parallel to Revelation 14:17-20.

    Rev 13:14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who *had the wound of the sword and has come to life. 15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed. 16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, 17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

    Mt 24:15 "Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand), 16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. 17 Whoever is on the housetop must not go down to get the things out that are in his house. 18 Whoever is in the field must not turn back to get his cloak. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. 22 Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Behold, here is the Christ,' or ' There He is, ' do not believe him. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. 27 For just as the lightning comes from the east and flashes even to the west, so will the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.
    The Glorious Return
    29 "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory. 31 And He will send forth His angels with A great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.


    Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and sitting on the cloud was one like a son of man, having a golden crown on His head and a sharp sickle in His hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying out with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, " Put in your sickle and reap, for the hour to reap has come, because the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16 Then He who sat on the cloud swung His sickle over the earth, and the earth was reaped.
    17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, and he also had a sharp sickle. 18 Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, " Put in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe." 19 So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God. 20 And the wine press was trodden outside the city, and blood came out from the wine press, up to the horses' bridles, for a distance of two hundred miles.

    The "next" event is not the sixth Seal, Day of the Lord.
    The fourth terrible beast has not yet been formed.
    The one 'seven' has not yet begun.
     
  10. inchrist

    inchrist New Member

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    Thats actually a bit of a fallacy

    The 2 witnesses plagues go forth with the first trumpet
     
  11. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    That's not what the Seal/Scroll chronology says.
    That's not what the detailed parallel account says happens right after the Harvest.

    The Two Witnesses are authorized to control rain, to turn water to blood, and to call down plagues. Scripture does not say they call the first Trumpet fire down first. That is for Angels as Rev 8 and 14 say.

    Rev 11:6 These (the Two Witnesses) have the power to shut up the sky, so that rain will not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to strike the earth with every plague, as often as they desire.

    Rev 8:1 When the Lamb broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour. 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and seven trumpets were given to them.
    3 Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, so that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints on the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel's hand. 5 Then the angel took the censer and filled it with the fire of the altar, and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.
    6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.
    7 The first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up.


    The relevant portion of Rev 14 is quoted above. The only fallacy is your take on things.
     
  12. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Hi Guys,
    Glad to see some more posts from Marcus, but I still don't get everything and probably never will. Keep up the good work. I'm getting ready to put the on-line stuff behind me.
    I believe what Marcus said about the coming war, because the Lord has been teaching me about these things for quite some time and even gave me some personal "markers" as warnings of when to make my exit. I can't afford to live where I am after I retire and am considering spending the last days of my pilgrimage in Europe or the middle east, but this won't happen until after I separate from my wife (something that I haven't been willing to do, but appears to be out of my hands.) May the Lord bless you and strengthen you for the times to come. I doubt that this venue will remain for much longer (there won't be much free speech in the years to come,) but make good use of the time that we have and lift up Christ whenever possible.
     
  13. inchrist

    inchrist New Member

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    No, I rely on witnesses to the fact.

    Let the readers be aware to the fact it would explain why the unbelieving world wanted to so badly kill the two witnesses. Since they are the ones pronouncing these trumpet plagues, they would be perceived as the ones causing them.

    They will be seen as destroyers. As a matter of survival, the unbelieving world would be compelled to kill the two witnesses before it was too late. And yet, killing them will not only be impossible, it will be deadly for anyone who tries.

    This would also explain the worldwide jubilation sending gifts to each other for the next 3 days when the beast succeeds in killing them. The beast would be seen as the savior of the world.

    Lets not underestimate the text when it states and to strike the earth with every plague

    To strike the world with every plague . Marcus position would want the readers to believe the 2 witnesses are incapable of calling the trumpet plagues to earth during their 3.5 years of ministry...which contradicts they have the power to bring every plague to earth.
     
  14. inchrist

    inchrist New Member

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    Lets look at the evidence.

    Revelation 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Scripture here tells us, during the 3.5 yrs of their ministry there will be no rain. In otherwords we have drought.

    Examining the 1st trumpet this explains why fire and hail both plagues the witnesses have power with, can burn up a 3rd of the grass and trees, no doubt fire spreading due to a server drought.

    Examining the 2nd trumpet

    Revelation 8:8-9 8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; 9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

    The 2 witness have the power over the waters to turn them to blood.

    Examining the 3rd plague

    Revelation 8:10-11 10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

    Since the 2 witnesses have been given power over water, there can be no doubt one of the number of their plagues would be to affect the worlds drinking water also.
     
  15. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    I knew you'd try to equate desolations with plagues, but twice in Revelation it says an Angel sounds the first Trumpet, not a Witness, and then classifies an Angel as being in charge of the Fire.

    You no more have shown what you argue incessantly about than you have shown that you can "buy" the Holy Spirit - as you insisted on Worthy Christian's eschatology board. So now I see you have stalked me over to this board since the moderators admonished you for your personal attackupon me on their private message system.
     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    2P2P; Two People, Two Promises. This abbreviation is commonly used, maybe not here.
    In order to hang onto the idea of a rapture removal to heaven of the Church and the Jews remaining on earth to face tribulation, you have to maintain a separation. But this contradicts Jesus and the Apostles: John 10:16, John 17:22-23, 1 Cor. 1:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Romans 2:11, Galatians 3:26-29
    There is only one people of God, one Israel of God, Galatians 6:16, and all the promises of God to the Israelites now pertain to His righteous Christian people, under the New Covenant; from every race and language, including Messianic Jews.
    This truth alone destroys the false rapture theory.

    You accuse me of knowing the Day. If I really did; wouldn't that make me a prophet? And you a prophet hater? Like to stone me to death, would you?
    No, I make no claim to know the Day the Lord will take action in His fiery wrath. But I do know its imminent and most Christians are quite unaware and unprepared.
     
  17. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Hi Keras, didn't you have some idea involving solar activity? One of my hobbies is astronomy and physics and within the last few weeks I've been getting some different sorts of ideas about convective plasma cells in the sun, the coreolis effect, and magnetic vortices acting like super sized particle accelerators. They've been coming to me one after another out of the blue, but I'm not sure why. Maybe I have a brain tumor like the character in Travolta's movie "phenomenon." Maybe I shouldn't have watched "knowing", staring Nicolas Cage. Hollywood can put weird ideas into your head. Still, it makes me wonder.
     
  18. inchrist

    inchrist New Member

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    Again incorrect

    The trumpets are a story of what happens to the wicked during the same time frame of 3 1/2 years as that of the 2 witnesses.

    You have not proven that it is incapable for the 2 witnesses to call on the angels to release the trumpet plagues during their ministry. Since God has given the 2 witnesses the power to bring all plagues.

    You also ignore the fact the world blames the 2 witnesses for all the plagues including the trumpets plagues.

    You also ignore the obvious, that their death also causes the 7th trumpet into effect.

    The Trumpets are warnings of the coming judgment to the wicked. When the Last Trumpet blows the only thing left is God’s wrath.

    So explain to me where exactly is my in consistency?

    Proverbs 23:23
    Buy the truth [holy spirit] and do not sell it-- wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

    The holy spirit
    John 16:13
    But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.

    I think scripture makes that very ckear for you, no?

    But then again I suppose its easier for you to rather teach a false doctrine that the wise virgins are spreading a gospel to people to take the mark of the beast instead.

    To the readers

    But the wise answered, saying, ‘No, lest there should not be enough for us and you; but go rather to those who sell, and buy for yourselves.’

    Marcus teachings is suggestion here the church spreads a gospel message for the unsaved to take the mark of the beast.

    Instead of reaching out and saving the unsave by tell them

    Proverbs 23:23
    Buy the truth [holy spirit] and do not sell it-- wisdom, instruction and insight as well.

    , we must rather encourage the unsave to take the mark of the beast.

    Because for some reason Marcus cant seem to understand there is a cost involved in following Christ.

    I spoke the truth....you can dish it out but you cant handle it when someone easily refutes some of the nonsense you teach...you go and insult your opponent, then when they stand up for themselves you go run to the mods everytime.
     
  19. inchrist

    inchrist New Member

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    You must be the guy Marcus was alluding to in the other forum worthychristianforum. He bragged abit.

    Dont worry you not the only one who has had the pleasure of his unmannered insults.

    You will notice in his debates, actually his brand of forcefull teachings that once you expose some of his inconsistencies he resorts to this seige mentality and the gloves are off so to speak and all manners go out the window.

    Further exposure of his false teachings then resorts Marcus to start running to the mods as though he is the victim....its extraordinary I must say.
     
  20. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Yes, it's plain from the over 70 prophesies describing the fire that the Lord will send to judge and punish His enemies, that a Coronal mass Ejection is the only naturally occurring thing that will literally fulfil them all. Like the Lord sent rain in Noah's day, this time the world is reserved for fire. 2 Peter 3:7.
    Here is an article I wrote that may interest you:
    The Electrical Nature of the Universe
    Conventional teaching is that the sun and stars obtain their energy by nuclear reaction, that is: atoms splitting to become a less complex elements, thereby releasing energy. However there are several things about that theory that cannot be explained, such as: how can this continuing reaction be controlled, so as not to totally explode and disintegrate? Why isn’t the sun just a dead ball of helium by now, or at least showing signs of degeneration? Why do the stars have coronas – something not associated with nuclear explosions?
    The fact is that the stars consist of plasma, at least on their surface, which is a kind of fourth state of matter. On earth we are familiar with solid, liquid and gaseous forms of matter. Ice, water and steam are examples, but we witness lightning and can produce plasma effects in the laboratory, both are high energy states where electrons are so excited that they leave their atoms. Our sun is a huge ball of plasma, lacking electrons - it is actually an incredibly powerful positive charge, but free electrons are present in the solar system. This system is just like a capacitor and if anything bridges the gap between the sun and the planets, an electrical discharge can take place. Just the normal, cyclical sunspot activity does this and we have seen many Coronal Mass Ejections, that fortunately have not been large or directed toward earth. A comet can trigger this effect, as demonstrated by comet Hale-Bopp, that caused the sun to be active for quite a while. CMEs occur when the suns magnetic field is interrupted – called a ‘Zenor breakdown’. This results in a tremendous release of energy and matter [superheated hydrogen plasma] is explosively thrown away to whatever direction the sun is facing at the time.
    Our sun is at the centre of a heliosphere that reaches out way beyond Pluto and earth is an integral part of the system, with its own magnetic field. Our magnetic field, the Van Allen belt, protects us from most CMEs; just producing auroras and some radio interference. However, we have had the bad news that lately, there has been substantial reduction to; and even holes forming, in our magnetic shield.
    The ancient prophet states in Isaiah 30:26-28: that on the Day that the Lord takes action in His creation, to ‘sieve the nations for destruction…the sun will shine with seven times its normal brightness, like seven days in one’. [brightness: is better translated as ‘strength’] This perfectly clear and understandable prophecy, tells us that a CME of unprecedented magnitude, directed straight at earth, will fulfill all the graphic, detailed prophecies of how the Lord will reset our civilization – as He did once before, in the days of Noah.
    References: www.electric-cosmos.org/sun.htm
    logostelos.info
     
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