Was Jesus Eternally Tormented?

[The Learner]

Nice discussion all

 

[face2face]

"His soul was not LEFT in hell". - Peter

It just means the grave. He was in the tomb for three days...that's all.

 

[Earburner]

Eternal death?

A&E were not allowed to have eternal life of any kind. They were removed from the Tree of Life. No one has been given an eternal soul, but rather they are a living soul because they breathe oxygenated air.
As a result, for everyone who dies without having faith in Jesus (the Tree of Life) they are eternally dead, having know existence of any kind.

 

[Jack]

A&E were not allowed to have eternal life of any kind. They were removed from the Tree of Life. No one has been given an eternal soul, but rather they are a living soul because they breathe oxygenated air.
As a result, for everyone who dies without having faith in Jesus (the Tree of Life) they are eternally dead, having know existence of any kind.

Death NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible.

 

[Earburner]

Death NEVER means "cease to exist" in the Bible.

One cannot continue to exist after death, if they don't have eternal existence of any kind.

 

[DJT_47]

Question makes no sense. Was is past tense, eternal is timeless.

 

[Phoneman777]

It just means the grave. He was in the tomb for three days...that's all.

Amen!

 

[Jack]

One cannot continue to exist after death, if they don't have eternal existence of any kind.

I'm so sorry that you don't believe in eternal life.

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Exact same Greek word!

 

[Jack]

One JW here unashamedly stated, "Jesus ceased to exist for 3 days".

 

[Scott Downey]

"His soul was not LEFT in hell". - Peter

Soul, not body. Body in the ground of earth, turns to dust, the soul that sins goes to hell. Jesus was made to be sin for us, however hell is compartmentalized, it is the not all the same place. Hell's compartmentalization will be destroyed when it is thrown into the lake of fire.
Peter tells us the angels who sinned are in Tartarus, the lowest part of hell.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

But since Christ is the resurrection and the life, death could not hold Him.

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, (soul)
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (body)
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying [i]to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [j]Hades and of Death.

Christs suffered once for sins, there was no suffering in hell, Christ suffered on the cross for our sins as the penalty for sin is death, All souls are mine says the Lord, the soul that sins shall die. Both v18's speak to this, Christ died on the flesh, descends into hades, made alive by the Spirit of God, preached in hell the gospel and has the keys of Hell and death both, speaking to Christ being the resurrection and the life. He proclaimed to them His victory over death. So Christ was assuredly gone into hades for 3 days until he was resurrected by God, which means put spirit back into a physical body.

Since Christ preached to them in hell, they must have been conscious.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Phoneman777]

Soul, not body. Body in the ground of earth, turns to dust, the soul that sins goes to hell.

Since the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV), at death the Breath of Life returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, the Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

When an electric current flows through a bulb filament and this union produces light, does the light go on shining on another plain of existence when the current flow is interrupted?

No, it ceases to exist. Just as the Soul at its death ceases to exist. That's why God said the wicked "shall be as though they had not been" and "never shalt (Satan) be anymore".

 

[Scott Downey]

Since the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV), at death the Breath of Life returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, the Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

When an electric current flows through a bulb filament and this union produces light, does the light go on shining on another plain of existence when the current flow is interrupted?

No, it ceases to exist. Just as the Soul at its death ceases to exist. That's why God said the wicked "shall be as though they had not been" and the devil "shalt not be anymore".

There is a distinct difference between soul and spirit in scripture.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Body and soul both destroyed in hell, but the spirit is not destroyed in hell. if it was Jesus would have said spirit, soul, body destroyed.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Man also has a spirit as well as a soul
1 Thessalonians 5

23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify[g] you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

When God saves us He saves both soul and spirit. The unsaved, their body and soul perish but their spirit does not.

 

[Earburner]

Soul, not body. Body in the ground of earth, turns to dust, the soul that sins goes to hell. Jesus was made to be sin for us, however hell is compartmentalized, it is the not all the same place. Hell's compartmentalization will be destroyed when it is thrown into the lake of fire.
Peter tells us the angels who sinned are in Tartarus, the lowest part of hell.

2 Corinthians 5:21
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

But since Christ is the resurrection and the life, death could not hold Him.

22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know— 23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you [f]have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; 24 whom God raised up, having [g]loosed the [h]pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it. 25 For David says concerning Him:

‘I foresaw the Lord always before my face,
For He is at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
26 Therefore my heart rejoiced, and my tongue was glad;
Moreover my flesh also will rest in hope.
27 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, (soul)
Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (body)
28 You have made known to me the ways of life;
You will make me full of joy in Your presence.’
29 “Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, [i]according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, 31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. 33 Therefore being exalted [j]to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.

17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying [i]to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [j]Hades and of Death.

Christs suffered once for sins, there was no suffering in hell, Christ suffered on the cross for our sins as the penalty for sin is death, All souls are mine says the Lord, the soul that sins shall die. Both v18's speak to this, Christ died on the flesh, descends into hades, made alive by the Spirit of God, preached in hell the gospel and has the keys of Hell and death both, speaking to Christ being the resurrection and the life. He proclaimed to them His victory over death. So Christ was assuredly gone into hades for 3 days until he was resurrected by God, which means put spirit back into a physical body.

Since Christ preached to them in hell, they must have been conscious.

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

From KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20, my understanding is different. Jesus, in the preincarnate state of His eternal being, preached to the people back then through Noah, who was "a preacher of righteousness". 2 Peter 2:5

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [resurrected] by the [Holy] Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits [G4151-rational souls] in prison; [the prison house of sin]**
[20] Which sometime [G4218 back then] were disobedient,  WHEN once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,  WHILE the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls [G5494 oxygenated air breathing] were saved by water.

** all of us are born into the prison house of sin, the fallen fleshly nature of our bodies, whereby we are continually held captive by the sinfulness of them, until we hear the voice of God and repent [G3340-metanoeo] towards Him. Mat. 3:2, Luke 4:18.

John 8
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[Scott Downey]

From KJV 1 Peter 3:18-20, my understanding is different. Jesus, in the preincarnate state of His eternal being, preached to the people back then through Noah, who was "a preacher of righteousness". 2 Peter 2:5

[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened [resurrected] by the [Holy] Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits [G4151-rational souls] in prison; [the prison house of sin]**
[20] Which sometime [back then] were disobedient,  WHEN once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah,  WHILE the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls [G5494 oxygenated air breathing] were saved by water.

** all of us are born into the prison house of sin, the fallen fleshly nature of our bodies, whereby we are continually held captive by the sinfulness of them, until we hear the voice of God and repent [G3340-metanoeo] towards Him. Mat. 3:2, Luke 4:18.

John 8
[36] If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Peter is speaking of Christ preaching to the spirits imprisoned in hell, Prisoners are chained up in a prison, Hell is a real place of imprisoning punishment which the spirits there cannot escape from, being locked up in hell until the final judgement

Jesus now has the 'keys' of hell and death, also implying a locked-up place.
Revelation 1:18 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of [j]Hades and of Death.

Peter uses that imprisonment theme in 2 Peter 4 referring to angels and people who sinned, what God did to them

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority

 

[Scott Downey]

Then we also see Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth, in essence, the area of hell
so that He fills all things, being everywhere and having authority over all things, He reigns.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

This cannot just be his body placed in a cave which Peter says of the descending of Christ like this
Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Hell is beneath your feet inside the earth. It is a real place of imprisonment, not a metaphysical one. hell is certainly not in Heaven-above, it is not on the earth, it is under the earth, and we know there is a lot of fiery heat down there. Hell is also called the bottomless pit.

Funny how Christ also says about the body, perhaps those in hell have a body, but of course they will after the final judgement when all the dead are resurrected. They are cast bodily into hell-lake of fire at the end.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

 

[Earburner]

Since the Soul exists only as a consequence of the union of the Body and Breath of Life (Genesis 2:7 KJV), at death the Breath of Life returns to God, the Body returns to the Earth, the Soul ceases to exist...until the one or the other of the two resurrections.

When an electric current flows through a bulb filament and this union produces light, does the light go on shining on another plain of existence when the current flow is interrupted?

No, it ceases to exist. Just as the Soul at its death ceases to exist. That's why God said the wicked "shall be as though they had not been" and the devil "shalt not be anymore".

Additional references of scripture to give support that "the breath of life" is nothing more than oxygenated air:
KJV Gen. 2:7, 6:17, 7:15,22.
To think or believe otherwise, is to say that animals also have eternal souls/existence.

Soul- H5315- nephesh, aka animal life.

 

[Earburner]

Then we also see Christ descended into the lower parts of the earth, in essence, the area of hell
so that He fills all things, being everywhere and having authority over all things, He reigns.

Ephesians 4
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore He says:

“When He ascended on high,
He led captivity captive,
And gave gifts to men.”

9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also [d]first descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

This cannot just be his body placed in a cave which Peter says of the descending of Christ like this
Acts 2:27
For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.
Acts 2:31
he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.

Hell is beneath your feet inside the earth. It is a real place of imprisonment, not a metaphysical one. hell is certainly not in Heaven-above, it is not on the earth, it is under the earth, and we know there is a lot of fiery heat down there. Hell is also called the bottomless pit.

Funny how Christ also says about the body, perhaps those in hell have a body, but of course they will after the final judgement when all the dead are resurrected. They are cast bodily into hell-lake of fire at the end.
Matthew 10:28
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Unfortunately, you have a "religious taught" understanding of how a "soul" is described in Hebrew. Nor do you correctly understand what "the breath of life" is that EVEN animals have.
Moses, the writer of Genesis, never did attend Chemistry 101.

1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God

 

[Scott Downey]

Unfortunately, you have a "religious taught" understanding of how a "soul" is described in Hebrew. Nor do you correctly understand what "the breath of life" is that EVEN animals have.
Moses, the writer of Genesis, never did attend Chemistry 101.

1 Cor. 2[5] That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God

A typical historical understanding is how I know things are what they are.
I do not diverge off the path into new understandings of scripture according to science of human wisdom, which scripturally is from below, not from heaven. Moses the unlearned as you call him, wrote much scripture, but you are giving it little substance of reality, maybe you are corrupted in your understanding.

 

[Earburner]

I'm so sorry that you don't believe in eternal life.

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Exact same Greek word!

Btw, WHEN did you receive eternal life/existence?

 

[Earburner]

A typical historical understanding is how I know things are what they are.
I do not diverge off the path into new understandings of scripture according to science of human wisdom, which scripturally is from below, not from heaven. Moses the unlearned as you call him, wrote much scripture, but you are giving it little substance of reality, maybe you are corrupted in your understanding.

Your correction in understanding is found in the Hebrew word "nephesh" (soul).

Also, Oxygen was discovered in England by Joseph Priestley in 1774.
Therefore, for 1774 years, since Christ at least, even "church-ianity" didn't know what "the breath of life" was.

Having therefore an untruth from the beginning of their understanding, they have fabricated some really huge whoppers of misunderstanding of what "a living soul" is, etc.