WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

[CadyandZoe]

If Premil is true then, all of the above undeniably proves that the thousand years couldn't possibly be involving this present heaven and earth if it passes away during the 2nd coming events. That's where we have to start then if we insist that Premil is true. We have to start with the fact that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events. Therefore, it is not reasonable to argue that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years. To do so totally disregards everything I submitted in this post which undeniably proves when heaven and earth pass away.

What if the earth doesn't end during the second coming events?

Does this describe the passing of the present heaven and earth?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

I don't think so. Peter is not talking about the passing of the heavens and earth. He is talking about the incineration of the land of Israel, as recorded in Malachi chapter 4, during the run-up to the Day of the Lord.

 

[Zao is life]

What if the earth doesn't end during the second coming events?

Does this describe the passing of the present heaven and earth?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

I don't think so. Peter is not talking about the passing of the heavens and earth. He is talking about the incineration of the land of Israel, as recorded in Malachi chapter 4, during the run-up to the Day of the Lord.

This is what we find in the first three and the last three chapters of the Bible:​

God's creation ⇾ Christ makes all things new.
Perfectly good ⇾ Only righteousness dwells in it.
Tree of life ⇾ Tree of life.
Adam given dominion ⇾ Last Adam given dominion.
Satan's deception ⇾ Satan's deception.
Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden ⇾ Second death. Lake of fire.

All the above things are mentioned in the first three and last three chapters of the Bible, and there will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death.

Copy @David in NJ @Davidpt @ewq1938 @rwb @Timtofly
​

---------------------------------
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes
I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God (Rev 2:7).

Him who overcomes I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God,
and he will go out no more.
And I will write upon him the name of My God,
and the name of the city of My God,
New Jerusalem, which comes down out of Heaven from My God,
and My new name (Rev.3:12-13)
---------------------------​

After introducing Himself in the Revelation with the words "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty", Jesus then speaks seven times to those who overcome and keep His works to the end,
​

and then He says,

"Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is the one who watches and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame. --- And he gathered them into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air ---

--- And a great voice came out of the temple of Heaven, from the throne, saying, --- It is done! "--- (Rev.16:15-17),

and then He says,

"Behold, I make all things new. And He said to me, Write, for these words are true and faithful. And He said to me, -- It is done --
--- I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who thirsts I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely.

He who overcomes will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son.

But the fearful, and the unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, will have their part in the Lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death" (Rev.21:5-8).

Those who overcome and keep His works to the end will not be hurt by the second death (Rev.2:11; 20:6).

It couldn't be any clearer that Christ will make all things new and the NHNE will commence when He comes. It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcame and kept His works to the end will reign with Him a thousand years when He comes, and will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God, and will not be hurt by the second death that will come after a thousand years following the coming of Christ.

It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcome and keep His works to the end are the bride of Christ a.k.a New Jerusalem who will come down from God out of heaven following the resurrection of all those who are Christ's when He comes, and will follow Him on white horses when He comes to judge the beast and the nations, and there is yet a lot more than the above that tells us this, but it's too much for this thread and limited characters, so I placed it here:

The Revelation of Jesus Christ

This is what we find in the first three and the last three chapters of the Bible: God's creation ⇾ Christ makes all things new. Perfectly g...

zaoislife.blogspot.com

 

[ChristisGod]

Is this the best you say in your refutation against my posts? Try to do better by quoting actual Scripture to prove me wrong, instead of your speculations or personal opinions believe that there are two separate groups of God's people. You have no idea of how the covenant Israel works.

Paul in Romans 9-11 says they are separate from the church.

next

 

[Taken]

WHAT ALMOST ALL PREMILLENNIALISTS DO NOT NOTICE OR REFUSE TO SEE

I believe BROADLY, many people DO NOT, begin at the beginning, and KEEP in Context, WHOM God SENT…
Bit by bit, NAMES and TITLES revealed pertaining expressly to the ONE whom God sent…with EXPRESS INTENT and DID SO accomplish.

And Bit by bit, the SAME ONE whom God sent, returns being revealed bit by bit, according to the Historically REVEALED, Names AND Titles of the ONE whom God Sent.

Point being…God SENT ONE…He had NAMES, TITLES….and accomplished PARTICULAR tasks….”according” TO those particular NAMES / TITLES.

So shall it be the SAME in “the” Last Days, revealed, fulfilling, according TO:
Gods Order and Way.

Emanuel, Jesus, Word, Messiah, Christ, Lord, Bright Morning Star, Lamb, Savior, High Priest, Teacher, Rabbi, Son of man, Son of God, Power, Spirit, Holy, Maker, Deliverer, King, Beginning, Ending, Father, God, etc….
Lord God Almighty

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Davidpt]

What if the earth doesn't end during the second coming events?

Does this describe the passing of the present heaven and earth?

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.​

I don't think so. Peter is not talking about the passing of the heavens and earth. He is talking about the incineration of the land of Israel, as recorded in Malachi chapter 4, during the run-up to the Day of the Lord.

Why did he say the following after what he said in verse 10 if verse 10 has zero to do with heaven and earth passing away?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why bring this up if it is not connected with anything he previously said? What's the logic in that if there is not even anything recorded in that chapter that supports why he needed to bring up the subject pertaining to a NHNE?

It's one thing to debate the timing of the heaven and earth passing away per verse 10, but it is not reasonable to deny that verse 10 is involving the heaven and earth passing away. And when it does pass away, unless there is something to replace it, we are pretty much stuck in limbo in the meantime, don't you think? If heaven and earth pass away at the 2nd coming, and that the millennium follows that, what earth would the millennium be involving since it can't be involving the earth that passed away, nor could it be involving the new earth if that can't even arrive until after the thousand years? Why wouldn't it simply be involving an earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, the fact that Christ and His saints would be ruling over the entire earth? Surely there couldn't still be crooked courts, crooked judges, etc, during the millennium.

What is the solution if one is a Premil like me who is convinced that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events? I can't join the Amil camp instead, if I'm not convinced Amil is the correct position. I can't agree with the majority of Premils that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years if I'm already convinced that heaven and earth pass away per the 2nd coming events.

 

[Davidpt]

This is what we find in the first three and the last three chapters of the Bible:​

God's creation ⇾ Christ makes all things new.
Perfectly good ⇾ Only righteousness dwells in it.
Tree of life ⇾ Tree of life.
Adam given dominion ⇾ Last Adam given dominion.
Satan's deception ⇾ Satan's deception.
Adam's death. Expulsion from Eden ⇾ Second death. Lake of fire.

All the above things are mentioned in the first three and last three chapters of the Bibl

​

That's some interesting insight you have here.​

 

[WPM]

Why did he say the following after what he said in verse 10 if verse 10 has zero to do with heaven and earth passing away?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why bring this up if it is not connected with anything he previously said? What's the logic in that if there is not even anything recorded in that chapter that supports why he needed to bring up the subject pertaining to a NHNE?

It's one thing to debate the timing of the heaven and earth passing away per verse 10, but it is not reasonable to deny that verse 10 is involving the heaven and earth passing away. And when it does pass away, unless there is something to replace it, we are pretty much stuck in limbo in the meantime, don't you think? If heaven and earth pass away at the 2nd coming, and that the millennium follows that, what earth would the millennium be involving since it can't be involving the earth that passed away, nor could it be involving the new earth if that can't even arrive until after the thousand years? Why wouldn't it simply be involving an earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, the fact that Christ and His saints would be ruling over the entire earth? Surely there couldn't still be crooked courts, crooked judges, etc, during the millennium.

What is the solution if one is a Premil like me who is convinced that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events? I can't join the Amil camp instead, if I'm not convinced Amil is the correct position. I can't agree with the majority of Premils that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years if I'm already convinced that heaven and earth pass away per the 2nd coming events.

This does not add up. This might explain why you're careful to avoid any objections to your position. The only way you can come to such a conclusion is by inventing 2 new heaven and new earths to fit your theology. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.

 

[CadyandZoe]

​

It couldn't be any clearer that Christ will make all things new and the NHNE will commence when He comes.​

The passages you quoted don't make your point. The NHNE does not commence when he comes.

It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcame and kept His works to the end will reign with Him a thousand years when He comes, and will eat of the tree of life which is in the midst of the paradise of God, and will not be hurt by the second death that will come after a thousand years following the coming of Christ.​

What isn't true, is that all of those things take place immediately after he returns.

It couldn't be any clearer that those who overcome and keep His works to the end are the bride of Christ​

The Bride of Christ are the Jewish people. The Gentiles are those who were called "from the highways and byways" according to the parable.

 

[Timtofly]

He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
To him who overcomes
I will give him to eat of the Tree of Life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God (Rev 2:7).

This has been ongoing for overcomers since the thief on the Cross. The thief went to the Paradise of God that day. The OT redeemed went to Paradise as the firstfruits in Christ on Sunday morning, after Jesus told Mary he was ascending to God. They were made alive as the firstfruits that day per 1 Corinthians 15:23. Paul mentions Paradise as being the third heaven, whatever that means. People try to explain first, second, and third. The firmament is the only heaven mentioned in Genesis 1. Every thing is contained in that firmament. So second and third are areas of the firmament we cannot see because we are spiritually blind, not necessarily levels. Paradise could be closer than we think. Obviously all we are taught today is Satan's virtual 14 billion light year universe. That is supposed to be the firmament, but is not, as all that is in the firmament are second and third heavens according to Scripture.

No one has had to wait thousands of years to eat from the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God. The New Jerusalem is not the current Paradise of God. The current Paradise is not the New Jerusalem. Paradise exists in this current creation. The New Jerusalem exists in the next creation. Obviously the Tree of Life and all of humanity can be moved from Paradise into the New Jerusalem in a twinkling of an eye. God can do whatever He wills to do, and when, and time is not necessary.

Some if not all of those overcomer rewards are already being fulfilled on an ongoing basis. No verse explicitly states the redeemed have to keep waiting for the realization of the work accomplished while physically alive on the earth.

How can you say those currently in Paradise are or are not already reigning over the affairs of the nations? We can see in the book of Job that the sons of God, created on the 6th day, were already in council over the nations in Job's day. Twice we see the sons of God come in council to present themselves before God. Is that not what happens when the UN convenes, that representatives from every nation present their particular needs to the UN? If the sons of God were overseeing those on the earth as God's council, is that not the same as being in charge of what goes on in the affairs of humans on the earth?

Contrasted with Satan as just wondering here and there on earth. It seems at some point, humans would have rather listened to the deceptions of Satan, than to require the council of the sons of God, between Job's day and when Jesus was born. It would seem plausible that after the Babylonian captivity, human government became closer to Satan that by the time the Romans were the fourth kingdom, Satan had the power over their spiritual desires. That power was not broken until the Reformation and the destruction of the 5th Kingdom the ten toes. It is said that even the church via Rome, was part of this power grab by Satan. The power of the redeemed did outgrow the 6th kingdom and spread throughout the world to where we are today. So why not accept that some NT overcomers are now meeting in council with God (like the ancient sons of God) quite often over the affairs of man since the Cross? Also would not the 24 elders be sitting on thrones around the GWT since the 2nd century? Certainly none are left to be born or physically die on the earth by this point?

It is still true that many will be rewarded and recognized in the New Jerusalem. But being an overcomer during the last 6 millennia does not necessarily mean one has to wait for a future fulfillment. I don't see why people think heaven is just a big empty place with nothing going on up there. They are more active than most believers here on earth. Read Hebrews 12:1

"Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"

That great cloud of witnesses has not shrunk since the first century. It keeps growing larger every single day. Revelation 7:9-17 has been a reality since the Cross. That is that great cloud of witnesses physically enjoying the physical tree of life in physical Paradise.

 

[Timtofly]

Why did he say the following after what he said in verse 10 if verse 10 has zero to do with heaven and earth passing away?

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Why bring this up if it is not connected with anything he previously said? What's the logic in that if there is not even anything recorded in that chapter that supports why he needed to bring up the subject pertaining to a NHNE?

It's one thing to debate the timing of the heaven and earth passing away per verse 10, but it is not reasonable to deny that verse 10 is involving the heaven and earth passing away. And when it does pass away, unless there is something to replace it, we are pretty much stuck in limbo in the meantime, don't you think? If heaven and earth pass away at the 2nd coming, and that the millennium follows that, what earth would the millennium be involving since it can't be involving the earth that passed away, nor could it be involving the new earth if that can't even arrive until after the thousand years? Why wouldn't it simply be involving an earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, the fact that Christ and His saints would be ruling over the entire earth? Surely there couldn't still be crooked courts, crooked judges, etc, during the millennium.

What is the solution if one is a Premil like me who is convinced that heaven and earth pass away during the 2nd coming events? I can't join the Amil camp instead, if I'm not convinced Amil is the correct position. I can't agree with the majority of Premils that the NHNE doesn't begin until after the thousand years if I'm already convinced that heaven and earth pass away per the 2nd coming events.

The same question is asked about Isaiah 65:17.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Then it talks about Jerusalem, not the New Jerusalem.

"But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

This goes hand in hand with Zechariah 14

"For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city."

Is this a battle on earth against the New Jerusalem or current Jerusalem?

"And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one. All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited."

It would seem that in both Isaiah and Zechariah, Jesus is creating current Jerusalem, and this is not talking about the New Jerusalem nor the NHNE.

Even that single verse in Matthew 24 is a contrast, not an explanation. What is the contrast? Is it between the physical and the promises Jesus made or just the same physical creation?

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away."

Jesus promised this generation shall not pass away until. Then contrast heaven and earth with His words. Now we know from John 1 that even creation only exists because of the Word.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."

So Jesus is saying that even though heaven and earth pass away, His promised Word cannot pass away even though creation comes from Him, and without Him nothing would exist.

You are taking that promise and turning it into a time stamp, which then makes you know something that cannot be known. Jesus is not saying when creation will cease. He is saying His Words cannot cease.

Now going on with the words Jesus gave us:

"But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

This is echoed by Peter in 2 Peter 3:5-7

"For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men."

By the Word of God, that which cannot pass away, by God's Word there was a heaven and earth that passed away in the Flood. They did not cease to exist. They were forever changed. Peter said the old world perished, passed away. But the heavens and earth now are preserved until the Second Coming when this heaven passes away again, and the works on earth are burned up.

This passing away is the Second Coming per both Peter, Jesus, and John in Revelation 6 at the 6th Seal. But creation does not cease to exist. The same current Jerusalem we know today is recreated and totally different, but is still not the New Jerusalem nor the NHNE that come over a thousand years later.

Neither Isaiah 65 nor Zechariah 14 are talking about Revelation 21. They are referring to the opening of the 6th Seal. And the Trumpets and Thunders are part of Jesus restoring and creating heaven and earth new, without sin nor the bondage of the curse on creation. This final harvest and regeneration will be complete when the 7th Trumpet stops sounding.

The Day of the Lord is the part of 1 Corinthians 15:25-28 between the Second Coming and the end.

"For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Death is destroyed when it is emptied out and cast into the LOF.

 

[ewq1938]

The Bride of Christ are the Jewish people.

Only believers in Christ are the Bride, which is Jews and Gentiles etc of all races. All who do not accept Christ are not the Bride including the Jewish people and all other peoples who don't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Only believers in Christ are the Bride, which is Jews and Gentiles etc of all races. All who do not accept Christ are not the Bride including the Jewish people and all other peoples who don't.

According to Revelation 21:9ff, the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, which has twelve gates associated with the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. According to a parable of Jesus, at the marriage supper of the Lamb, both Jews and Gentiles will be invited to the reception. But only those with the proper attire will be allowed to stay.

So, in a sense, I agree with your general premise that the invited guests will be believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Timtofly]

Only believers in Christ are the Bride, which is Jews and Gentiles etc of all races. All who do not accept Christ are not the Bride including the Jewish people and all other peoples who don't.

According to Revelation 21:9ff, the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, which has twelve gates associated with the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. According to a parable of Jesus, at the marriage supper of the Lamb, both Jews and Gentiles will be invited to the reception. But only those with the proper attire will be allowed to stay.

So, in a sense, I agree with your general premise that the invited guests will be believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles.

You all do know that bride and groom are just figurative language?

The OT was ripe with the husband and wife rhetoric. That was carried into the NT with Christ and the bride rhetoric.

There is not a literal wedding ceremony.

But the bride that sits on the earth with Christ is Israel as Jesus is the King, and Israel would be the bride on those white horses just coming from a wedding.

The church from both the OT and NT redeemed in Paradise comes down as the second bride after the Day of the Lord, in the New Jerusalem.

That would be two wives. The church out of the 6,000 years of sin and death, and the wife of the Millennium in Revelation 20.

 

[Davidpt]

According to Revelation 21:9ff, the bride of Christ is the New Jerusalem, which has twelve gates associated with the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. According to a parable of Jesus, at the marriage supper of the Lamb, both Jews and Gentiles will be invited to the reception. But only those with the proper attire will be allowed to stay.

So, in a sense, I agree with your general premise that the invited guests will be believers in Jesus Christ, both Jews and Gentiles.

In the parable we find all of the following.

1) a certain King

2) this King's Son

3) this king's servants

4) them that were bidden to the wedding but would not come

5) guests both good and bad

6) a man which had not on a wedding garment

Where is the bride in this parable? If it's initially 4), why would a bride refuse to come to her own wedding? Especially for the reasons listed, such as---they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise. Does that sound like excuses a bride would use in order to not have to attend her own wedding?

If the bride is meaning 5), and then if we compare to real world weddings, when has there ever been a wedding in the past where the groom marries the guests rather than the bride? IOW, how can a bride and guests be one and the same?

We are already told in Revelation 21 who the bride of the Lamb is. And that we are already told in Revelation 19, that before heaven is even opened, thus, behold a white horse, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


And look what the majority of Premils are doing here, including you, apparently. They have this wedding taking place during the 2nd coming events, but then don't even have it involving what Revelation 21:9-10 is involving. According to most Premils Revelation 21:9-10 is meaning a thousand years or more after Revelation 19:7-8 is meaning. How can there be this wedding that is ready at the time without it involving that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God? Let's be logical here at least. One can't divorce Revelation 19:7-8 from Revelation 21:9-10 and then expect to arrive at the truth.

Both accounts, Revelation 19 and 21 show something descending out of heaven from God. In Revelation 19 it is this---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean---obviously referring to this--to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, thus meaning the bride. And in Revelation 21 we see this descending out of heaven from God---that great city, the holy Jerusalem--- I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. IOW, these are parallel events, not events separated by a thousand years or more.

It can't get any clearer than this. What is recorded in Revelation 19 involving the wedding can't occur without it also involving what Revelation 21:9-10 is involving.

 

[Davidpt]

This does not add up. This might explain why you're careful to avoid any objections to your position. The only way you can come to such a conclusion is by inventing 2 new heaven and new earths to fit your theology. Mark 1 they relate to their alleged future millennium and is sin-cursed and corrupt. Mark 2 is perfect and incorrupt and they equate it to 1,000 years+ after this.

How can you possibly equate the millennial earth to the new heavens and new earth? They are polar opposites.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.

All of that aside for now since we are obviously never going to be able to get on the same page in regards to those things, let's approach things from the following perspective instead. Then show me why things don't add up per my take on things but do add up per your take on things.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


If these are parallel events, and surely they are, this indicates that the holy Jerusalem descends out of heaven before, not after, the great white throne judgement. And one reason why is this.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is meaning after heaven is opened and that the bride along with Christ are descending out of heaven. How could verses 19-21 possibly be meaning after the great white throne judgment rather than prior to it? If Revelation 19 proves the NJ can descend out of heaven before, rather than after the great white throne judgment, this alone proves that both Premil and Amil are incorrect that the NJ doesn't descend out of heaven until after the GWTJ. Are Amils now going to argue that what I submitted per Revelation 19 and Revelation 21 above, that these are not parallel events after all, that there is a gap between what I brought up per Revelation 19 and Revelation 21?


Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Clearly, these are one and the same here. These armies per verse 14 are meaning this same bride meant per verse 8, and that they are seen descending with Christ, thus are not even on the earth at the time if they are instead seen descending with Him. In Revelation 20 though, the camp of the saints are still on the earth and being surrounded on the earth, while in Revelation 19 they are not even on the earth, they are descending from the sky instead. And that Amils would have us believe that these are parallel events. And then Amil finds all these things allegedly wrong with Premil but don't even bother to at least acknowledge all these things wrong with Amil in return. Such as I just submitted here.


If the bride is already seen descending out of heaven in Revelation 19, why would the bride need to descend out of heaven yet again at a later time--thus Revelation 21:9-10? Keeping in mind, per Revelation 19 when the bride is seen descending out of heaven, this is meaning before the great white throne judgment, not after it. The same has to be true in regards to Revelation 21:9-10 as well, otherwise these are not parallel events after all. And then we have to conclude that the bride descends out of heaven twice at two different times. Speaking of things adding up, as if that adds up.

 

[WPM]

All of that aside for now since we are obviously never going to be able to get on the same page in regards to those things, let's approach things from the following perspective instead. Then show me why things don't add up per my take on things but do add up per your take on things.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.



Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


If these are parallel events, and surely they are, this indicates that the holy Jerusalem descends out of heaven before, not after, the great white throne judgement. And one reason why is this.

Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

This is meaning after heaven is opened and that the bride along with Christ are descending out of heaven. How could verses 19-21 possibly be meaning after the great white throne judgment rather than prior to it? If Revelation 19 proves the NJ can descend out of heaven before, rather than after the great white throne judgment, this alone proves that both Premil and Amil are incorrect that the NJ doesn't descend out of heaven until after the GWTJ. Are Amils now going to argue that what I submitted per Revelation 19 and Revelation 21 above, that these are not parallel events after all, that there is a gap between what I brought up per Revelation 19 and Revelation 21?


Revelation 19:8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Revelation 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


Clearly, these are one and the same here. These armies per verse 14 are meaning this same bride meant per verse 8, and that they are seen descending with Christ, thus are not even on the earth at the time if they are instead seen descending with Him. In Revelation 20 though, the camp of the saints are still on the earth and being surrounded on the earth, while in Revelation 19 they are not even on the earth, they are descending from the sky instead. And that Amils would have us believe that these are parallel events. And then Amil finds all these things allegedly wrong with Premil but don't even bother to at least acknowledge all these things wrong with Amil in return. Such as I just submitted here.


If the bride is already seen descending out of heaven in Revelation 19, why would the bride need to descend out of heaven yet again at a later time--thus Revelation 21:9-10? Keeping in mind, per Revelation 19 when the bride is seen descending out of heaven, this is meaning before the great white throne judgment, not after it. The same has to be true in regards to Revelation 21:9-10 as well, otherwise these are not parallel events after all.

You can get your answer in the inspired text. Revelation 21:9-10 confirms: “Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God.”

The bride of Christ and the holy city are synonymous. Not only is it clear that “the marriage of the Lamb” to “his wife” is referring to the final consummation of the relationship between Christ and His bride – the Church – at the second coming. But we see the status of the wife; “And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” The wife is the body of believers down through the years, which have placed their eternity on the blood of Christ, whether in the old or the new economy.

The wedding therefore is the consummating of the union between bridegroom and the bride or the catching away of the saints.

 

[WPM]

In the parable we find all of the following.

1) a certain King

2) this King's Son

3) this king's servants

4) them that were bidden to the wedding but would not come

5) guests both good and bad

6) a man which had not on a wedding garment

Where is the bride in this parable? If it's initially 4), why would a bride refuse to come to her own wedding? Especially for the reasons listed, such as---they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise. Does that sound like excuses a bride would use in order to not have to attend her own wedding?

If the bride is meaning 5), and then if we compare to real world weddings, when has there ever been a wedding in the past where the groom marries the guests rather than the bride? IOW, how can a bride and guests be one and the same?

We are already told in Revelation 21 who the bride of the Lamb is. And that we are already told in Revelation 19, that before heaven is even opened, thus, behold a white horse, for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,


And look what the majority of Premils are doing here, including you, apparently. They have this wedding taking place during the 2nd coming events, but then don't even have it involving what Revelation 21:9-10 is involving. According to most Premils Revelation 21:9-10 is meaning a thousand years or more after Revelation 19:7-8 is meaning. How can there be this wedding that is ready at the time without it involving that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God? Let's be logical here at least. One can't divorce Revelation 19:7-8 from Revelation 21:9-10 and then expect to arrive at the truth.

Both accounts, Revelation 19 and 21 show something descending out of heaven from God. In Revelation 19 it is this---And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean---obviously referring to this--to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints, thus meaning the bride. And in Revelation 21 we see this descending out of heaven from God---that great city, the holy Jerusalem--- I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. IOW, these are parallel events, not events separated by a thousand years or more.

It can't get any clearer than this. What is recorded in Revelation 19 involving the wedding can't occur without it also involving what Revelation 21:9-10 is involving.

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.
The new earth does not contain sin.

The millennial earth you profess contains death.
The new earth does not contain death.

The millennial earth you profess contains corruption.
The new earth does not contain corruption.

The millennial earth you profess contains war and terror.
The new earth does not contain war.

The millennial earth you profess contains tears.
The new earth does not contain tears.

The millennial earth you profess contains Satan.
The new earth does not contain Satan.

The millennial earth you profess contains the wicked.
The new earth does not contain the wicked.

The millennial earth you profess contains rebellion and anarchy.
The new earth does not contain rebellion and anarchy.

 

[Zao is life]

The Bride of Christ are the Jewish people. The Gentiles are those who were called "from the highways and byways" according to the parable.

Stop being so racist. God isn't racist. Christ only has one bride, i.e the sons and daughters of Adam and Eve who have been redeemed by His blood and believe in Him, because God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life; and Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to God the Father except through Him, and the only way that anyone can come to God the Father through Jesus Christ is through faith in Jesus Christ.​

 

[Zao is life]

The millennial earth you profess contains sin.

That's the millennial earth YOU profess. Not the one to come, until Satan is permitted at the close of it to deceive the nations one last time.

The same is true for the rest of your silly list.

How you can repeatedly take the conditions of the millennium YOU profess and superimpose it onto the millennium to come is an absurdity that only you can understand.​

 

[Zao is life]

No one has had to wait thousands of years to eat from the Tree of Life in the Paradise of God.

So you agree.

The New Jerusalem is not the current Paradise of God. The current Paradise is not the New Jerusalem. Paradise exists in this current creation. The New Jerusalem exists in the next creation. Obviously the Tree of Life and all of humanity can be moved from Paradise into the New Jerusalem in a twinkling of an eye. God can do whatever He wills to do, and when, and time is not necessary.

O-K.
Got it. (Not really, but I tried).

Some if not all of those overcomer rewards are already being fulfilled on an ongoing basis. No verse explicitly states the redeemed have to keep waiting for the realization of the work accomplished while physically alive on the earth.

O-K. No more pain, death. tears. Got it.

How can you say those currently in Paradise are or are not already reigning over the affairs of the nations?

Because we are not.

We can see in the book of Job that the sons of God, created on the 6th day, were already in council over the nations in Job's day.

O-K.

Sorry Tim but you've lost me with the rest.

Twice we see the sons of God come in council to present themselves before God. Is that not what happens when the UN convenes, that representatives from every nation present their particular needs to the UN? If the sons of God were overseeing those on the earth as God's council, is that not the same as being in charge of what goes on in the affairs of humans on the earth?

.. etc etc.

I've got left behind somewhere. You've lost me, Tim.