What and when is the rapture Part 2

[The Light]

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Unless you also see that as God’s voice and if you don’t, I cannot understand how one is and 1 is not.

It appears that you think that 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are the same event. No so. 1 thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are not the same event. I Cor 15 is Matthew 24"15, when Jesus sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. In 1 Thes 4, the Lord himself comes for His bride, the Church.

There is a big difference between the Lord Himself coming and the Lord sending His angels. Two completely separate events. The Lord Himself comes with the trump of God or voice of God. When the Lord sends His angels in 1 Cor 15 that occurs at the last trump which is blown of the Feast of Trumpets.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As 1 commentator puts it, If the loud sound of the trumpet, when the law was given from mount Sinia, especially when it sounded long, and waxed continually louder and louder, was so dreadful to the Israelites, that they said to Moses, Let not the Lord speak to us lest we die; how terrible must the sound of this trumpet be, which calls all men to that final judgment that will determine their lot for ever!

He wasn’t speaking to them yet, and they already quaked with fear. Could it be just a voice as you put it? That is a possibility because I toss nothing aside until 100% proven false. I hope you’d do the same, but evidence does point to a trumpet as the Israelites were given when they encamped around Jericho. So, is God’s voice the last trumpet voice that sounds? Or is the last trumpet that sounds, the last trumpet in view of the trumpets that preceded it?

No, God is not the voice of the last trump. This trumpet is blown on the Feast of Trumpets a harvest feast of the Lords. Note that Paul never had need to explain what the last trump was as the Jews know it is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. John had not yet had the Revelation so wouldn't Paul find it necessary to explain what the last trump was? There is no need need as they all know what the last trump is. Ask a Rabbi what the last trump is and he will no doubt confirm it is blown on the feast of Trumpets.

 

[Justbobg]

Jesus said multiple times in the book of John that on the last day believers are raised up , some apply this to be the rapture, but it’s actually the first resurrection , some are confused but I believe it’s the same event . Blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection !

 

[No Pre-TB]

I didn’t say the trumpet equals them just that Babylon the greats destruction is after them.

If I’m following you, you place Babylon’s destruction after the 7th bowl?

I look at it like this:
1. Rev 14:8 shows Babylon destroyed before the mark (placing the mark possibly in the first woe) and after the warning of judgment to come as well as the 144k are seen. If a judgment is pronounced and following the judgment is Babylon’s destruction, it must be found early in the trumpets. The last 3 trumpets are woes but the first 4 are 2 fold: They undue creation (look at Genesis account and pay attention to reversing it) and they are all related to each other as cause and effect. Lastly, the 3rd Trumpet is symbolic of Babylons destruction. Please compare Jeremiah 51:6-8 ; Jeremiah 51:25 and Amos 7:4
Now in Rev 19:2, Babylons destruction is shown (I place it at 3rd Trumpet), followed by Rev 19:6 where Christ reigns placing that at the 7th Trumpet. Rev 18 is all about Babylon and in verse 21 is very similar in language and identification as the 3rd Trumpet. There is more to say but I’m pressed for time.

 

[No Pre-TB]

It appears that you think that 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 are the same event. No so.

Well, that’s the problem with dispensationalism. I don’t agree with its interpretation. Not all of them recognize the church is part of Israel as others do. Physical Israel does not have blessings, the blessings are to spiritual Israel. To think God is incapable of working with as many as he wants, they assume he’s working with the church now and no one else like the Jew. He works on all! He worked with the church when he punished the Jews in 70AD. It’s amazing people think this way. Misunderstanding Paul’s reference that all Israel will be saved..
I don’t want to derail this thread, but as long as you see things that way, you’ll never see it anyone else’s. For that, I’m deeply sorry.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Jesus said multiple times in the book of John that on the last day believers are raised up , some apply this to be the rapture, but it’s actually the first resurrection , some are confused but I believe it’s the same event . Blessed is he that has part in the first resurrection !

Youre correct. The resurrection happens on the last day and it precedes the harpazo. For most of the early church, talk was on the resurrection, not the harpazo. The harpazo is really a minor event compared to the first resurrection of all dead to Christ vs. who are alive and remain. Ever think to yourself..remain alive from what? If everyone else died, and I didn’t, what did they die from that I remained…

 

[The Light]

Well, that’s the problem with dispensationalism. I don’t agree with its interpretation.

I want to clarify something, for you, so you won't be confused when dealing with others. Most people that understand God's timing for His people (dispensationalist) do not think that the coming of Jesus in 1 Thes 4 and the coming of Jesus in 1 Corinthians 15 are separate events. They think that the Church is raptured before the 70th week of Daniel (which is correct) but they do not understand that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the 6th seal and not after the trumpets or vials. We can see clearly according to the word that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

So, not recognizing that Jesus comes at the 6th seal, causes most dispensationalists to put the tribulation into the wrath of God. This is of course in error as we know that Gods people are not appointed to wrath.

Not all of them recognize the church is part of Israel as others do. Physical Israel does not have blessings, the blessings are to spiritual Israel. To think God is incapable of working with as many as he wants, they assume he’s working with the church now and no one else like the Jew. He works on all! He worked with the church when he punished the Jews in 70AD. It’s amazing people think this way. Misunderstanding Paul’s reference that all Israel will be saved..
I don’t want to derail this thread, but as long as you see things that way, you’ll never see it anyone else’s. For that, I’m deeply sorry.

Brother, I do not see scripture like you because I deal in facts.

 

[The Light]

If I’m following you, you place Babylon’s destruction after the 7th bowl?

I look at it like this:
1. Rev 14:8 shows Babylon destroyed before the mark (placing the mark possibly in the first woe) and after the warning of judgment to come as well as the 144k are seen. If a judgment is pronounced and following the judgment is Babylon’s destruction, it must be found early in the trumpets. The last 3 trumpets are woes but the first 4 are 2 fold: They undue creation (look at Genesis account and pay attention to reversing it) and they are all related to each other as cause and effect. Lastly, the 3rd Trumpet is symbolic of Babylons destruction. Please compare Jeremiah 51:6-8 ; Jeremiah 51:25 and Amos 7:4
Now in Rev 19:2, Babylons destruction is shown (I place it at 3rd Trumpet), followed by Rev 19:6 where Christ reigns placing that at the 7th Trumpet. Rev 18 is all about Babylon and in verse 21 is very similar in language and identification as the 3rd Trumpet. There is more to say but I’m pressed for time.

The chances of you understanding this are remote, however, Babylon is destroyed before the 5th seal. AND THE SEALS AND THE TRUMPETS ARE NOT THE SAME EVENTS.

 

[No Pre-TB]

The chances of you understanding this are remote,

Brother, I do not see scripture like you because I deal in facts.

With such love from your words, your light does shine brightly towards me.

As I said, we don’t see eye to eye and sadly that will not change anytime soon. Im glad you believe the resurrection will not happen until the 6th seal, moving the Pre-TB goal posts somewhat. But as you have gained knowledge from those reasons that lead you to that understanding, there is always more to learn. Nothing I can say will change that, even if it’s perfectly presented because your heart and mind has made it clear. That part is up to you and the HS showing it to you.

PS. I never said the seals and the trumpets were the same. I’m not sure how you interpreted that from me.

 

[Timtofly]

You are so mixed up.
The bride makes herself ready for glorification day. We have a body like his glorious body not our body of flesh. Wedding garments are given us when he comes to receive us.

That would be the 5th and 6th Seal, not the 7th Trumpet. John calls them robes of white. Then the church waits until Jesus picks the "guest" during the Trumpets and Thunders.

Besides there is no "us getting ready". Only God can make us ready.

 

[Marty fox]

If I’m following you, you place Babylon’s destruction after the 7th bowl?

I look at it like this:
1. Rev 14:8 shows Babylon destroyed before the mark (placing the mark possibly in the first woe) and after the warning of judgment to come as well as the 144k are seen. If a judgment is pronounced and following the judgment is Babylon’s destruction, it must be found early in the trumpets. The last 3 trumpets are woes but the first 4 are 2 fold: They undue creation (look at Genesis account and pay attention to reversing it) and they are all related to each other as cause and effect. Lastly, the 3rd Trumpet is symbolic of Babylons destruction. Please compare Jeremiah 51:6-8 ; Jeremiah 51:25 and Amos 7:4
Now in Rev 19:2, Babylons destruction is shown (I place it at 3rd Trumpet), followed by Rev 19:6 where Christ reigns placing that at the 7th Trumpet. Rev 18 is all about Babylon and in verse 21 is very similar in language and identification as the 3rd Trumpet. There is more to say but I’m pressed for time.

Revelation 16 shows that Babylon the great falls after the 7th bowl and the 7 bowls are the last plagues as shown in revelation 15

 

[Timtofly]

The battle of Armageddon is in chapter 16 when when the beast destroys Babylon the great. Revelation 19 is different when Jesus judges the beast and the false prophet.

Notice that Armageddon is only mentioned in chapter 16 and it’s not mentioned in chapter 19.

No, the place is mentioned in chapter 16. The battle itself happens in chapter 19. The battle cannot start until Jesus arrives. Besides it says they gather to fight the Lamb, not each other.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

They don't fight the beast. Those gathered at Armageddon fight the Lamb. The beast is the kingdom of Babylon, Satan's 42 month reign of abomination of desolation. The beast represents Satan's power and authority.

The destruction of this Babylonian kingdom are the 7 vials of God's wrath being poured out. Revelation 17 and 18 is the parenthetical point of what is happening during these 7 vials of God's wrath.

 

[The Light]

I'm glad you believe the resurrection will not happen until the 6th seal, moving the Pre-TB goal posts somewhat.

Actually, there will be a resurrection before the 70th week of Daniel as the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. Then God will turn His attention toward His people. We see the Church in heaven in Revelation 5.

But as you have gained knowledge from those reasons that lead you to that understanding, there is always more to learn.

Absolutely.

Nothing I can say will change that, even if it’s perfectly presented because your heart and mind has made it clear. That part is up to you and the HS showing it to you.

Listen brother. I deal in facts. I don't dream up anything. If ever you can present scriptural facts I am certainly willing to listen. I fully understand that all believers will be joined into one fold, Israel. That is no mystery. What most of you fail to understand is that God has a plan for the Gentiles and the Jews. God saw the fathers of the Jews as the first fruits of the first harvest. But they served other Gods and would not be the first harvest. The Gentiles will be the first harvest.

Hosea 9
10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre 70th week rapture. God will turn His attention to the Jews and part of them will see.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

It all about timing. God has a plan for both Jews and Gentiles, and we can CLEARLY follow that through the book of Revelation.

PS. I never said the seals and the trumpets were the same. I’m not sure how you interpreted that from me.

Sorry. There are so many people believing that they are the Israel of God (and yes, they are. BUT ONLY IN GODS TIMING) it's kind of hard to keep up with who believes what. Preterists, partial preterists, post tribulationist, Amills etc etc etc.

I'm not exactly sure who is what. Can you describe what your beliefs are to me? I believe there are two raptures. One before the 70th week of Daniel for the mostly Gentile Church and I believe there will be a rapture for the Jews, the 12 tribes across the earth, the seed of the woman. We can see the 144,000 that are the first fruits of this harvest. This rapture will occur at the 6th seal, BEFORE THE WRATH OF GOD. As for the nation of Israel, their blindness will not be removed before the rapture at the 6th seal. They will be in a place of protection during the wrath of God as none of Gods people are appointed to wrath.

If you do not believe that the seals and the trumpets are the same events (timeline) I would be very interested in you giving me a brief rundown of what you believe if you could.

 

[Marty fox]

No, the place is mentioned in chapter 16. The battle itself happens in chapter 19. The battle cannot start until Jesus arrives. Besides it says they gather to fight the Lamb, not each other.

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."

They don't fight the beast. Those gathered at Armageddon fight the Lamb. The beast is the kingdom of Babylon, Satan's 42 month reign of abomination of desolation. The beast represents Satan's power and authority.

The destruction of this Babylonian kingdom are the 7 vials of God's wrath being poured out. Revelation 17 and 18 is the parenthetical point of what is happening during these 7 vials of God's wrath.

You are only quoting revelation 19 not 16 and only 16 mentions Armageddon. The battle at Armageddon is only in 16 where is beast defeats Babylon the great. Do you notice that Jesus isn't mentioned in chapter 16 and Babylon the great city isn't mention in the last part of chapter 19?

This below is the defeat of Babylon the great city

Rev 16:17-21
17 The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, “It is done!” 18 Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since mankind has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found. 21 From the sky huge hailstones, each weighing about a hundred pounds, fell on people. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.

This below shows who does it

Rev 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Two completely different events with to different purposes and out comes.

 

[Timtofly]

Youre correct. The 7th Trumpet is not the voice of God. But it is a trumpet of God. Have you not read Revelation 8:2 ?

2And I saw the seven angels who stand before God, and they were given seven trumpets.

The trumpets were given to them. Angels circled the throne room per Rev 4, but these 7 stood in God’s presence marking 2 interesting things:
1. They were given trumpets from God
2. Luke 1:19
19And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God;

And again in Jude 1:9 tells us Michael is an archangel. Also, in Daniel 10:13 it says, Michael, one of the chief princes (plural and another name for archangels). These are given the 7 trumpets of God. Only archangels stand in God’s presence. So when we do see the 7th Trumpet blown, it’s blown by an archangel, exactly as Paul said it would.

Well Gabriel announced the first coming. He certainly did not have to wait for those 7 Trumpets at that time. Gabriel is quite capable of sounding a Trumpet at the Second Coming, and also as the last Trumpet sounded.

 

[No Pre-TB]

There are so many people believing that they are the Israel of God

There is a lot to unpack from your questions. I’m not sure I’ll be able to respond to all of them atm. I believe the true church is the Israel of God, spiritually, which was grafted into an already existing true Israel. We did not supersede Israel, but became a part of her.

What most of you fail to understand is that God has a plan for the Gentiles and the Jews.

I agree with that statement (that God has a plan for the people he first knew) 100%. The disagreement with me is probably how I see that plan vs. someone else’s.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the pre 70th week rapture. God will turn His attention to the Jews and part of them will see.

I see the fulness of the Gentiles come in at the very last day before the 7th Trumpet is blown. Demonstrated that God, not wishing any to perish, waits till the very last second per Job. And Revelation 11:13 it’s said: the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. All throughout the trumpets, they are told to fear God and they don’t. And finally, at this end point, an unknown number do so.

Can you describe what your beliefs are to me?

2 resurrection's. One of the just at the last day and one for the unjust after the reign of Christ. 1 harpazo after the 1st resurrection at the 7th Trumpet.
The 114k symbolize the true universal church as spiritual Israelites. - opposite of those seen under the alter of souls (martyrs) and on the fiery crystal sea (purified). I see the Orge wrath as judgment on Babylon vs. the thumos wrath on wicked men during the bowls. I see the Jewish people blind at least until the event before the 7th trumpet. I believe those days are not solely for Jews, but all mankind including those that identify as Christian. Not the true church that will be spiritually prepared to stand, but those apostates and others that carry the lamp without oil.

Judgments and plagues are not always wrath. For instance, the initial plagues on the Egyptians were called judgments and trials; tests. Only when Pharaohs heart was fully hardened, was wrath poured out by the death angel and the drowning his army with a flood which was a mimic of Esther’s people about to be wipe out and at the very last minute, salvation. This is where you see in Revelation, the people giving each other presents over the persecution of their enemies. But then it all changes and the righteous get victory over the wicked.

I do not believe the seals and trumpets and bowls are the same. As far as my opinion is, I believe when I read at the last seal, 7 trumpets are given, it shows a progression from one to another. The bowls are no different. Some point out similarities between water turning to blood and such, but I take these things symbolically because the vision is given in the spirit and requires use of the entire Bible to understand it. Breaking down those similarities show they arnt similar at all imho.

 

[Timtofly]

Youre correct. The resurrection happens on the last day and it precedes the harpazo. For most of the early church, talk was on the resurrection, not the harpazo. The harpazo is really a minor event compared to the first resurrection of all dead to Christ vs. who are alive and remain. Ever think to yourself..remain alive from what? If everyone else died, and I didn’t, what did they die from that I remained…

Because we still naturally die.

No one can keep themselves alive on purpose, especially for hundreds of years.

"It is appointed unto men, once to die"

Some will be alive when the Second Coming happens, because they would have naturally lived longer, had the Second Coming not happened.

 

[Timtofly]

Rev 17:16-17
16 The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17 For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to hand over to the beast their royal authority, until God’s words are fulfilled.

Two completely different events with to different purposes and out comes.

You said the beast and the ten horns fight each other. I said they did not, then you quote a verse saying both of them attack the prostitute.

They both attack the Lamb as well, at Armageddon.

 

[Marty fox]

You said the beast and the ten horns fight each other. I said they dud not, then you wnquote a verse saying both of them attack the prostitute.

They both attack the Lamb as well, at Armageddon.

I didn’t say that the beast and ten horns attack each other.

If you mean in chapter 19 then no one attacks the Lamb they are just gathered and Jesus defeats them.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn’t say that the beast and ten horns attack each other.

If you mean in chapter 19 then no one attacks the Lamb they are just gathered and Jesus defeats them.

Yet you are missing the whole parenthetical of both chapter 17 and 18. 17 and 18 describes the fall out of the 7 vials. It is called a parenthetical that is integrated into the 7 vials.

There is only one battle between Satan along with the armies of earth against the Lamb, and it happens after the 7th vial is poured out. The 6th vial just gathers them, but not the battle itself. After the parenthetical including the first section of Revelation 19, is the battle of Armageddon itself. I am quoting Revelation 17, not 19:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them"

The parenthetical about the 7 vials points to Revelation 19. Of course they are defeated at Armageddon.

 

[Marty fox]

Yet you are missing the whole parenthetical of both chapter 17 and 18. 17 and 18 describes the fall out of the 7 vials. It is called a parenthetical that is integrated into the 7 vials.

There is only one battle between Satan along with the armies of earth against the Lamb, and it happens after the 7th vial is poured out. The 6th vial just gathers them, but not the battle itself. After the parenthetical including the first section of Revelation 19, is the battle of Armageddon itself. I am quoting Revelation 17, not 19:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast. These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast. These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them"

The parenthetical about the 7 vials points to Revelation 19. Of course they are defeated at Armageddon.

I’m talking about revelation 16 and yes the outcome in chapters 17 and 18 is the defeat of Babylon the great not the beast.

So sorry to put it this way but please answer these questions yes or no.

Is Revelation 16 the only chapter in the bible that mentions Armageddon?

Does chapter 16 mention Jesus yes or no?

Does chapter 16 mention the destruction of Babylon the great?

Does chapter 17 show who destroys Babylon the great?

Does chapter 19 mention Babylon the great?

Does chapter 19 mention Armageddon?

Does chapter 19 mention Jesus?

Does chapter 19 show Jesus defeat the beast?

Thus they are not the same battle they are different with different opponents and different outcomes.