What and when is the rapture Part 2

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Hippie

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From dust we came to dust we return, but the soul lives on forever. We are Gods only creation with a soul. That is why he sent his son so he can have us back. Yes the physical body dies, goes back into the ground. The first resurrection comes with the twinkle of the eye. That's when the spirit comes out of the ground. Then comes the hardest part which is when those many years of suffering before Jesus returns with his army to destroy the enemy for good. At the present time we live with a soul living our lives following in Jesus footsteps and spreading Gods Word so people can be saved as well.
 

Timtofly

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Because the first resurrection is spiritual when we are saved and then we never truly die because death has no power over us. Revelation 20:4 shows us that even though the body dies physically we still live spiritually

So it is physical but we are no longer bound to the physical
The verse never says they continued living. It says they lived. They were physically dead, now they have their heads back. That is the first resurrection.

The first resurrection does not mean going around headless for all eternity. That seems slightly barbaric. "Not having a head for 1,000" years does not improve your point. Not having a head for the last 1992 years makes literally no sense at all.

"and they lived, this is the first resurrection"

They were physically dead, now they were judged and given the first resurrection. That is a physical resurrection body including a head. After they were judged, they were given a permanent incorruptible physical body, that could not die the second death. The fact there were thrones and judgment given pertains directly to those beheaded, as the ones being judged. The result of that judgment and ruling was the first resurrection.

That is not an ongoing judgment. That was a one time judgment after Satan was bound in the pit for 1,000 years. They ruled with Christ for that same 1,000 years. They would have been that camp of the saints on earth, that those deceived by Satan marched from the corners of the earth to that camp of those resurrected beheaded saints. That is the single subject of the 1,000 years. Satan bound while those resurrected ruled from the camp of the saints. After the 1,000 years Satan once more tries to get rid of those beheaded people whom were beheaded under his empire just prior to the 1,000 years. God points out, no way. He consumes that army with fire from heaven. Those beheaded are spared the second death both physically and spiritually, and are not dead again to stand at the GWT.
 

ewq1938

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Because the first resurrection is spiritual when we are saved


No, that is false. Being born again is not what the first resurrection is about in Rev 20. You are committing a contextual fallacy by forcing something into Rev 20 that does not belong.

You Amills aren't consistent on this either. The first resurrection is claimed to be Christ's resurrection, then another time it's not that anymore but it's a believer being born again wrongly called a resurrection. Being born again is not a resurrection and cannot be one which is why scripture never calls it one.

Being alive, dying, then coming back to life is a resurrection.

Being dead from the start, then coming alive is missing the being alive in the first place.

and then we never truly die because death has no power over us. Revelation 20:4 shows us that even though the body dies physically we still live spiritually


Rev 20:4 shows us that being dead physically and alive spiritually will change when the time for teh resurrection of the dead in Christ arrives. Then, the physically dead but spiritually alive people will become physically alive again. You are missing that from the passage.
 

No Pre-TB

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Because the first resurrection is spiritual when we are saved and then we never truly die because death has no power over us. Revelation 20:4 shows us that even though the body dies physically we still live spiritually

So it is physical but we are no longer bound to the physical
That doesn’t answer my question. It says they are beheaded. If you’re spiritualizing it, what’s figurative of beheaded?
 

Ronald D Milam

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What did Paul teach us that the rapture is for? When it would occur?

There are two main teachings by Paul on the rapture,the first one is:

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.
This is of course about the coming of the Lord for his bride. Not the coming of the Lord to rule on this earth as Lord of lords during the Kingdom Age. That is why we are caught up or raptured up to be with him, the same as Rev. 14:14 where Jesus Harvests his church a pre trib rapture flashback. But in Rev. 14:1, that is the actual second coming where Jesus lands on Mt. Zion, and harvests his wheat (Israel) and in Revelation 14:17-20 where Jesus harvests the wicked grapes. We are the Barley harvest, which needs no crushing in order to be harvested. The tribulum was a machine (Greek word) that crushed wheat so it could be sifted in order to be harvested. Barley can be sifted without being crushed.

The second example that is used is in 1st Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 15:35-58
This in short, points to those dead in Christ being raised without corruptible sin flesh, as spirit men, and thus those of us who are living need to be changed so that our corruptible sin flesh doesn't stop us from goin to heaven. In other words we must lose this sin flesh, and like the dead who are raised as spirit men, go to be with the Lord as spirit men, not men with flesh. So, 1 billion Christians will go to be with Jesus, our bodies are not welcomed there, thus we zoom to heaven via our spirit man, leaving our bodies on earth. Basically, that is what happens when someone dies now, except the rest/sleep first. The proof of this is in the very scriptures you cited. It just goes over most everyone's head.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption(Sin flesh); it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Every point in this whole passage can only be interpreted properly when we understand the dead are raised in a NON CORRUPT Spiritual Body which is of Christ Jesus. Thus those who are alive and remain at the time of the rapture must CHANGE.....why? Verse 50 tells us.....flesh and blood can not enter heaven.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

When Mary saw Jesus was resurrected in John 20 he said "Touch me not, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. [to offer the Sacrifice]. Mary's sin flesh merely touching Jesus would have defiled the Sacrifice so that it woud not have been acceptable to God.

There is also no mention of a tribulation upon the earth or a persecution upon the saints after these events. Paul tells us that the rapture is only for changing of our bodies so we can enter heaven. Paul also says that this happens at the last trumpet. The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
The Church will not go through the tribulation, so if the message is to comfort those who will be Raptured, along with their dead loved ones, speaking in that letter about the coming tribukation would have been pointless, they already knew about it, that is why in 2 Thess. 2:1-3 they FEARD being in the tribulation. and Paul had to tell them that we would DEPART before the DOTL comes by being gathered unto Jesus.

The Last Trump always ended the Harvest. Jesus fulfills all 7 Feasts, they were holy convocations (dress rehearsals). Jesus is our 1.) Passover 2.) he was unleavened from sin 3.) he was the first-fruits of the grave. He is as we speak harvesting souls as our high priest in heaven, we are the body (church) he uses to harvest these souls during the 4.) Summer Harvest (Church Age). All that is left is Jesus ending the Summer Harvest, Israel Atoning and Jesus Dwelling with Israel for 1000 years. That will fulfill all 7 Feasts.

Now, what ALWAYS ended the summer harvest? The Feast of Trumps !! Why is it said that we can not know the exact day nor hour of Jesus' return for his bride? Because Israel were on God time or a Lunar calendar. They never knew the exact day nor hour the New Moon would come in, thus they could not know the exact day nor hour the New Year would come in either. They could and did however know the Season, of course. So, the Israeli leaders would send two witnesses up into the hills/mountains to spy out the new moon, when they saw it they reported back to the Israeli leaders, then the 5.) Feast of Trumps started, the Shofar blew in 9 sets of 11 or 99 times, then on the "LAST TRUMP" (100th) it blew longer & louder than the other 99 and officially ended the Summer Harvest or in this case the Church Age Harvest of souls. After the Trumpets it is on to the 6.) Feast of Atonement, where we see Israel repents or atones, just like Dan. 9:24-27 says must happen before the 70th week can end. Lastly, the 7.) Feast of Tabernacles comes, but to tabernacle just means to Dwell with God, thus Jesus ruling from Jerusalem during the Kingdom Age fulfills this also, thus Jesus fulfills all 7 Feasts he calls the Church Home in Rev. 4:1 and sounds as a TRUMPET !! Jesus' blood ATONES Israel, after the finally repent !! And Jesus dwells with Israel for 1000 years.

We have to understand the things we speak about brother. The Last Trump is not a Judgment Trump, it is Jesus rapturing his Church, ending the Harvest of Souls. Not knowing these things will leave one on a bad path. We need all of the facts, not just bad facts passed down by men. We have to dig them out.

By the way, Rev. 11 the 7th Trump. Rev. 14:17-20. Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19:17-20 are all the exact same event. Just like we are told about the 2nd Trump in Rev. 11 but given NO DETAILS, because we see the details in Rev. 9, the 2nd Woe is 200 million Angels bringing plagues. Likewise, when we hear that the 3rd Woe comes quickly, we are also nit given the DETAILS in Rev. 11 either, we see the details in Rev. 16, the 7 Vials are the 3rd Woe, which come via the 7th Trump. In Rev. 11 we are told the 7th Trump will bring victory only because PRAYING THEM DOWN was a part of the Two-witnesses ministry, but they die at the 2nd Woe, thus we are told what the 7th Trump (3rd Woe/7 Vials) will eventually bring, VICTORY. It does not happen in Rev. 11 per se, that is a Parenthetical Citation chapter.
 

ewq1938

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They were physically killed by the beast but they still live spiritually


Everyone knows that's what happens when someone dies. Rev 20 is not talking about that, but how the dead are raised back to physical life. Denying what the text presents is a bad look.

Your version also has unsaved people refusing the MOB and worshiping the beast and being killed for that, then somehow being "spiritually resurrected" ie being saved after having been killed. How exactly can someone be saved after death? Why would the unsaved stand against the beast and the mark??
 
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Marty fox

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Everyone knows that's what happens when someone dies. Rev 20 is not talking about that, but how the dead are raised back to physical life. Denying what the text presents is a bad look.

Your version also has unsaved people refusing the MOB and worshiping the beast and being killed for that, then somehow being "spiritually resurrected" ie being saved after having been killed. How exactly can someone be saved after death? Why would the unsaved stand against the beast and the mark??
I have no idea what you are talking about in your last paragraph i didn’t say any of that or agree with what you think I said
 

No Pre-TB

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@Marty fox @ewq1938

I was reading a page back and noticed you both talking about Babylon.

Marty believes it refers to Jerusalem
Ewq disagrees because it’s Port based

If I may, Ezekiel 27 paints a picture of Tyre as Babylon. I do not believe Tyre is Babylon, I just notice similarities. The point is, ancient Tyre was a port city that felt with multiple nations; more so than Jerusalem. Jerusalem is never said to be. “In the midst of the sea”, got all her wealth by her “traffic” and described in such ways as Tyre and Babylon was.

Well, except one time. Jerusalem once was described in a way all the wealth of the nations came to her. She traded with the nations as she excelled them all and it’s noted in 1 Kings 10:15, 22-23, 28-29 etc during Solomon’s reign.

I believe both points add value and knowledge to what encapsulates Babylon. Is it a physical city? No, I don’t believe so. Most likely it exhibits the spiritual side of those living in it. God tells all his people, whoever is in her, to come out of her. Living in a literal city doesn’t damage your spiritual faith. But living your life in a spiritual city would. We should be looking for New Jerusalem (wherein dwells righteousness) and forsaking Babylon (the world). Just my 2cents.
 
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rwb

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So there no physical resurrection?

The physical resurrection for both those who have done good and those who have done evil will come on the last day, at the hour that is coming.

John 5:28-29 (KJV) Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This is not the first resurrection John speaks of. John says those of the first resurrection have lived and reigned with Christ in TIME, which is what a thousand years indicates. They are blessed and holy and have overcome the second death. It is because these martyred saints lived and reigned with Christ on this earth, in time, having part in the first resurrection, that in death they are living spirit souls in heaven. The first resurrection is not the physical resurrection that shall be on the last day at the same hour for all of humanity. Having part in the first resurrection is partaking of Christ's resurrection through His Spirit in us. This we do when we are born again of His Spirit. The first resurrection is to be made spiritually alive, because all men are dead in trespasses and sins, IOW we are without life through His Spirit in us, and therefore we must be born again.

Ephesians 2:1-6 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
 

ewq1938

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Ewq disagrees because it’s Port based


Only because it is described that way and Jerusalem isn't and can't be. I don't believe Babylon is a literal city either. A female in Revelation is used to symbolize a lot of people, like the woman in Rev 12 that gave birth to Christ, or Babylon. Babylon means confusion, it represents all the religiously confused people of the GT worshiping a false god.
 

No Pre-TB

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Only because it is described that way and Jerusalem isn't and can't be. I don't believe Babylon is a literal city either. A female in Revelation is used to symbolize a lot of people, like the woman in Rev 12 that gave birth to Christ, or Babylon. Babylon means confusion, it represents all the religiously confused people of the GT worshiping a false god.
I agree with you. Babylon’s example was the Jews lived in it, but were supposed to remain different while in her. When the command came “come out of her” my people, they left her for Jerusalem (Jeremiah 51:45). Some of the verses Marty linked were to Jerusalem, but in both there’s distinctions that the image is deeper than a physical city. It would be odd to call Jerusalem, Babylon, that’s like Sodom and like Gomorrah. But spiritually Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah brings out the vice, the wealth, violence and paganism of those cities.

The Jews are told to come out of her (Babylon) and yet at another time, they are said to have all the blood of the prophets on their hands (Jerusalem). I can only think that the prophecy relates to those Christian in title who were given responsibility to spread the gospel and instead shut it up. The same who lack love and instead use violence. They don’t come out of Babylon, they love living in her though they think they live Godly lives.
 
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GerhardEbersoehn

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The last trumpet is the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15.The number seven means completeness to God, the completeness of Gods wrath is finished. Remember there was also a trumpet in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.
Show Scripture saying 'trumpet' on any day
not "the Day of the LORD",
not "the Seventh Day",
not "the Last Day",
not "the Sabbath of the Lord",
not "the Lord's Day"---
There is none!
It is "the Day of His Coming",
the sounding of His Voice,
of lightning from east to west;
behind me and in front
rumbling of many waters,
beneath great quaking of the earth,
from heaven the City descending,
open upon the earth all graves–
in clouds of dust the dead are raised;
from the earth its salt ascend
to savour on Sabbath’s Feast of Christ
fragrance of life—eternal youth—
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND RESURRECTION: OF THE DEAD!
Amen
Come Lord Jesus, quickly come!
 

No Pre-TB

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Show Scripture saying 'trumpet' on any day
not "the Day of the LORD",
not "the Seventh Day",
not "the Last Day",
not "the Sabbath of the Lord",
not "the Lord's Day"---
There is none!
It is "the Day of His Coming",
the sounding of His Voice,
of lightning from east to west;
behind me and in front
rumbling of many waters,
beneath great quaking of the earth,
from heaven the City descending,
open upon the earth all graves–
in clouds of dust the dead are raised;
from the earth its salt ascend
to savour on Sabbath’s Feast of Christ
fragrance of life—eternal youth—
THE DAY OF THE LORD AND RESURRECTION: OF THE DEAD!
Amen
Come Lord Jesus, quickly come!
Not sure what you’re asking.
Are you asking where does it say there will be a trumpet sound on the day of the lord or on a normal day? It’s confusing