What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Aunty Jane]

Please stop trying to rewrite our Christian Bible. You're not qualified.

Well, don't look now sport, but you are looking pretty foolish with these responses....."Not qualified"? says who? You? Are you qualified?
Are you really so sure that you have the truth, or are you afraid to even investigate the Bible for yourself to see if what you believe is true?
What if you have it all wrong? What then?

You are shown plain scripture and you pretend that it doesn't contradict what you choose to believe....that is entirely your choice....we are all making our decisions before Christ comes to mete out his Father's justice. A lot of people are going to be very disappointed.....(Matthew 7:21-23)

I don't believe the JW lies from the Bible TWISTING Kingdom Hall. And they are many!

Well it seems to me that swallowing lies is something you have no problem with.....

I keep hearing about these "many lies" but not once have I seen any evidence that we have done that......again empty assertions....

Put up...or...well, you know the rest.

 

[Jack]

Well, don't look now sport, but you are looking pretty foolish with these responses....."Not qualified"? says who? You? Are you qualified?

I repeat, YOU are not qualified to rewrite our Bible. Even the NWT says JW's are wrong! See how God works?

Are you really so sure that you have the truth, or are you afraid to even investigate the Bible for yourself to see if what you believe is true?
What if you have it all wrong? What then?

I'm not the one trying to rewrite the Bible. I leave that to JW's brainwashed by Kingdom Hall into thinking they are qualified.

You are shown plain scripture and you pretend that it doesn't contradict what you choose to believe....that is entirely your choice....we are all making our decisions before Christ comes to mete out his Father's justice. A lot of people are going to be very disappointed.....(Matthew 7:21-23)

Yes indeed. Approximately 8 million JW's. Not counting those who are already eternally lost.

Well it seems to me that swallowing lies is something you have no problem with.....

I keep hearing about these "many lies" but not once have I seen any evidence that we have done that......again empty assertions....

Put up...or...well, you know the rest.

How long were you brainwashed by the WatchTower?

 

[farouk]

Oh dear Jack, don't go by blind prejudice and stereotyping, take the time to sit down with a Jehovah's Witness and talk to one instead of going by mass stereotyping of Jehovah's Witnesses, and believing all the lies.

It's good to be armed with facts....and plenty of Scripture.......

 

[Jack]

Oh dear Jack, don't go by blind prejudice and stereotyping, take the time to sit down with a Jehovah's Witness and talk to one instead of going by mass stereotyping of Jehovah's Witnesses, and believing all the lies.

So you disagree with the WatchTower?

 

[JohnPaul]

So you disagree with the WatchTower?

I do not, and know a lot of wonderful Christians who are Jehovah's Witnesses.

 

[keithr]

So John 3:16 and all the promises Jesus made to us for eternal salvation are just parables? You've been duped! Luke 16 is clearly LITERAL with literal Biblical people.

John 3:16 is part of a private conversation with one man, Nicodemus, who came to see Jesus at night so that nobody would notice (John 3:2). Nicodemus was a member of the Sanhedrin, so his coming by night is to avoid the hostility of his colleagues: the Sanhedrin was opposed to Jesus. So Jesus wasn't speaking to him in parables.

Jesus didn't speak to the crowds exclusively in parable, but it was mainly in parables. The 'Rich Man and Lazarus' is a parable at the end of a list of parables in Luke chapters 15 - 16. There is nothing but 4 parables in a row, then the Pharisees who were listening scoffed at Jesus, so he spoke to them (Luke 16:15-18) and then he told a parable aimed at the Pharisees. The parable starts, Luke 16:19-20 (WEB):

(19) “Now there was a certain rich man, and he was clothed in purple and fine linen, living in luxury every day.
(20) A certain beggar, named Lazarus, was taken to his gate, full of sores,​

"A certain rich man" and "a certain beggar" are not literal Bibical people, but a typical way of describing people in a parable. The beggar is given a name, because it has a relevant meaning. Lazarus means "whom God helps".

I'll include an article about this parable that I downloaded from the Internet about 22 years ago (but it doesn't appear to be available anymore). I'll have to split it over several posts.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31

It is evident from the whole setting of this passage that it is a parable.
Otherwise the logical lesson to be drawn from it is that unless we are poor
beggars, full of sores, we will never enter eternal bliss; and that future
torment will be our portion if we happen to wear fine linen and purple and fare
sumptuously every day. And, if taken literally, those who are poor are taken,
not to heaven, but to Abraham's bosom. However, the context of this passage
shows that Christ in this parable was teaching a great dispensational truth,
namely, the change of favor from the Mosaic Law Covenant to the Covenant of
faith. (Luke 16:16-18; Galatians 3:6-29) If you read carefully the 32nd
chapter of Deuteronomy, you will see that Jesus was merely repeating in vivid
pictorial language what Moses had already said. See particularly verses 20 to
29; and also Paul's quotation of the 21st verse in Romans 10:19, where he shows
that Moses' prophecy referred to the overthrow of Israel consequent upon Jesus'
rejection of that nation.

Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the
apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible.
The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he
was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate
beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the
prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.

Some other reasons that this story should be viewed as a parable:

To think that Jesus was supporting the idea of eternal roasting after death by
use of this parable is contrary to God's justice, for justice demanded the
forfeiture of man's life for sin (Genesis 2:17), for "the wages of sin is
death" (Romans 6:23), and of God it is said (Psalm 145:20): "all the wicked
will he destroy." Therefore, it would be an infraction of God's justice for him
to preserve the wicked and eternally torture them.

Additionally, such a conclusion violates God's wisdom, for wisdom devises plans
which useful ends are attained. There is surely no useful purpose in keeping
the rich man eternally in a place of torture.

Of course, the parable says nothing about Lazarus remaining in hades for
eternity, but as Revelation 20:13 shows, all in hades will be brought back for
the judgment day, and then hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire. --
Revelation 20:14; See also Hosea 13:14.

If the Rich Man were in literal flames in hades, this could contradict the
entire testimony of the rest of the Bible, which shows that sheol/hades is
nothingness, oblivion, silence, destruction. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalms 6:5;
115:17; Psalms 146:3-4; Isaiah 38:18; 63:16; Job 14:21; etc..

(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

It would contradict God's stated purpose to bless mankind. -- Genesis 12:1-3.

It would contradict the ransom, which is clearly taught, for example, in 1
Corinthians 15:3,21,22, Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:6, which scriptures teach that
Christ died (not suffered eternal torment) for our sins according to the
Hebrew scriptures. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:4-12 shows that our Lord would
bear our penalty (which is death -- Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23 -- not eternal
torment), pouring out his soul to death. The effect of this ransom is to be the
salvation of all men, not the eternal torture of the vast majority (1 Timothy
4:10; 1 John 2:2).

The rich man of the parable represented the proud and self-righteous of the
Jewish nation in our Savior's time, seeking righteousness by means of the Law
Covenant. (Galatians 2:21; Philippians 3:9; Romans 9:31-32) The Pharisees seem
to be particularly represented by the Rich Man. (Luke 16:14-15) The scribes
and Pharisees sat in Moses seat' (Matthew 23:2) as the religious leaders and
representatives in Israel. (Matthew 23:5-7) The Rich Man's clothing of purple
and fine linen represented the honors and privileges accorded to the scribes
and Pharisees. (Matthew 23:5-7) The fine linen represented the
self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which they claimed by the Law.
(John 9:40-41) The purple clothing represented royalty -- not only was purple
the royal color in our Savior's day, but we still speak of royal purple.
(Judges 8:26; John 19:2-3; Mark 15:17-18) The scribes and Pharisees were
sitting in Moses' seat, therefore they had the purple in the sense that to it
belonged the honor of being the typical Kingdom of God, and the promises
respecting the future dominion of God as the Kingdom of God. The abundance of
food upon the Rich Man's table represented the abundance of divine promises and
blessings and instructions given to the scribes and Pharisees. (Romans 9:4-5)
It was this table of divine favors that the apostle referred to saying: "What
advantage does the Jew have? Much in every way, chiefly because to them were
committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-3) This was the table respecting
which the prophet and the apostle spoke concerning Israel: "Let their table
become a trap and a snare to them." (Romans 11:9) In other words, the very
bounties and blessings of God's revelations or oracles tended to make them not
humble, but proud, and ultimately assisted in their stumbling and rejection of
the Savior due to their insistence of their righteousness by works of the Law.
-- Romans 9:30-32.

The scribes and Pharisees would not so much as eat with any they considered as
sinners. (Matthew 9:11) They viewed Jewish sinners the same as if they were
Gentiles, without law. Those who accepted the Messiah's teachings were of this
lowly Jewish class. Matthew, one of his apostles, was a tax collector, others
were common fishermen. (Matthew 10:3; Mark 1:16-19) None of them were
recognized by the religious aristocracy of the time. They were looked down
upon, declared not to be heirs with the holy Pharisees and educated Scribes and
Doctors of the Law. The Pharisees even determined that Jesus himself was not
only a friend of publicans and sinners but an injurious person who must not be
allowed to live. (Matthew 12:14) From the Jewish leaders' standpoint Jesus and
his followers were all outside the gates, excluded from the special privileges
and blessings of God through the "righteousness" Law. These lowly Jewish
followers of Jesus were the first of the Lazarus class.

The Lazarus class also later included those Gentiles of humble heart who
accepted Jesus, thus becoming Jews inwardly and participants in the Abrahamic
promises. (Colossians 3:11; Galatians 3:28-29; Romans 2:28-29; 10:12) As an
illustration of how these fed on the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man's table
let us remember Jesus' words to the Syrophenician woman, a Gentile who came to
him entreating for the healing of her daughter. Our Master, to illustrate the
relative position of the Jews and Gentiles from God's standpoint, said to her:
"It is not proper to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs."
(Matthew 15:26) In other words, Jesus was saying: It would not be proper for me
to devote my time and energies to the blessing of yourself and daughter, who
are Gentiles, because the Jewish nation is by covenant in the favored place
with God. Any special blessings and favors that God has to give must be given
to them first of all. Non-Jews are not to expect to get the favors I was sent
to give to Israel.' We remember his words to the disciples also: "Do not go
into the way of the Gentiles, for I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." Matthew 15:24

 

[keithr]

[Continuing Rich Man and Lazarus article.]

The message and blessings and opportunities could not go to the Gentiles until
first they had been offered to the Jewish table (occupied by the Rich Man) and
had been rejected by all except a remnant the Jewish Lazarus class who would
seek righteousness by faith. (John 1:11-12; Romans 1:15; 2:9-10; 11:5; Matthew
22:3-10) But mark that as Lazarus got some of the "crumbs," according to the
parable, so did the Syrophenician woman. She exclaimed: "True, Lord. Yet the
dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." (Matthew 15:27;
Mark 7:28) Jesus answered her: "'O woman, your faith is great. Let it be to you
even as thou desire.' And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
(Matthew 15:28) Jesus gave her the crumb of faith from the children's table --
the table being occupied by the Rich Man.

The Death of Lazarus

In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the
Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and
everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as
literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different
subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement.
Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12-13: "From the days
of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward
vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"

Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits
adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits
adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable.
However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.

The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not
know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has
dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should
die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband
lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But
if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress,
though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have
become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we
have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were
held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by
the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.

When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This
signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in
Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it
is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18)
"When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4-5) They were being received
into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13-14.

Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to
the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the
believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.

The Death of the Rich Man

John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid
to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the
Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law.
(Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47-49) As a rich man riding upon the Law
as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel,
pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of
righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by
the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and
seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the
righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31-32; Romans 10:3

Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the
favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings
and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before
Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in
desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was
buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of
the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This
was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. --
Mark 15:38.

The Rich Man in Torments

Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So
much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they
persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment
of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the
captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the
other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay
them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they
heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with
their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by
Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself
states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that
beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians
1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the
name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of
the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests.
When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished
them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being
exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities."
(Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching
of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A
successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.

The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his
finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the
flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help
from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for
water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was
happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They
wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a
distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments
they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman
yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined
Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the
leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius
Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering
the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than
through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus
over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham
reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while
Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the
Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus
was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in
anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.

 

[keithr]

[Continuing Rich Man and Lazarus article.]

The Chasm

Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf)
between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between
faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man,
representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could
not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the
Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing
those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law,
could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing
parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would
be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in
seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man
class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept
righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek
righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to
bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to
take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man,
neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.

The Rich Man's Brothers

Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his
father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of
torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken
prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people
was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners.
Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began
to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the
Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a
Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but
to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt.
In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor
his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who
would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they
had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told,
would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to
the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their
death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7-8,11; Romans 7:4) To do so would have meant
they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus
Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and
the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those
dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not
listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city
of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the
year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of
the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.

The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who
dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six -- the
number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of the
six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the lamb.

Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and
Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death
Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16;
cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything
about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer
to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which
is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the
Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken
from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that
becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is
pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as
a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and
gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you
how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her
offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left
to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time
comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'"
(Luke 13:34-35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham
going to heaven when he died.

Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in
the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will
be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with
men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is
referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made
perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39-40) Nothing is
stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's
soul went to heaven when he died.

[End of Rich Man and Lazarus article.]

 

[Jack]

Well gee, I can copy and paste huge amounts of smokescreen too but it doesn't change the FACT that parables don't use literal Biblical people. Luke 16 is not a parable. It agrees with perfectly clear teachings by Jesus. Do you believe in ETERNAL life? Then you are not being consistent.
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The EXACT same Greek word.

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus wasn't hallucinating when He taught Luke 16. It is clearly literal, unless you have been duped by Satan. Satan wants our company in Hell "forever and ever".

well, if you read the Bible long enough that will likely change on you, Jack, what can i say. Kinda obvious that you didnt avoid apostles for your first three years of study like Paul advised, either! But i dont know anyone who did lol.

Anyway believe that as long as you like ok, but the Bible doesnt really support that imo

 

[Aunty Jane]

I repeat, YOU are not qualified to rewrite our Bible. Even the NWT says JW's are wrong! See how God works?

Please tell us where we have rewritten the Bible....I keep asking but you have no answers....do you see how God works? Ignorance has no place in Christianity.

I'm not the one trying to rewrite the Bible. I leave that to JW's brainwashed by Kingdom Hall into thinking they are qualified.

Yes indeed. Approximately 8 million JW's. Not counting those who are already eternally lost.

How long were you brainwashed by the WatchTower?

O dear......nothing to see here but blind prejudice....exactly the same as Jesus and his disciples experienced....why do you think Jesus said....
“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me. Rejoice and be glad, because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.” (Matthew 5:11-12 - NET)

He also said....
“If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you do not belong to the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. Remember what I told you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they obeyed my word, they will obey yours too. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me.” (John 15:18-21 - NET)

Who is persecuting you and telling lies about you? Who is saying dreadful things about the way you worship and conduct yourself in the world?

Why did Jesus first century disciples receive the vile and hateful response that came from the Jews, who claimed to worship the same God? Was it because they were behaving wickedly? Or because they begged to differ with the religious establishment? Where did the opposition really come from that spread to the people and influenced them to want to kill Jesus? Was it because Jesus was evil? They were told he was, and they believed it without question. Are you also doing the same thing? Blind hatred is like a cancer that robs people of their thinking ability.....they hate without knowing why....they hate because others told them to hate.

What do you really know about the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses? If you could defend your own beliefs scripturally, that would be one thing, but you cannot present anything except to mindlessly defend what someone else has told you. Why do you believe as you do? Who told you that it was correct? Are you yourself “brainwashed”?

You see, it’s all about who you believe.....not just what you believe.
The devil is a master deceiver....he can make the truth look like lies and vice verse.....are you a victim?

Instead of your blind hatred, why not simply discuss our beliefs and the origins of them, using all the resources available to us. People who make decisions without hearing ALL the facts are the most ignorant.

For goodness sake do your homework and go to the source, not to those who tell you what you want to hear and only feed your hatred, so evident in all that you post to me.
Ask us why we believe as we do because we already know what you believe....a great number of us have come out of Christendom because we saw no Christianity either taught or practiced there.

I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses 50 years ago because I saw no genuine Christianity practised or taught in my church. I tried different denominations but found them to be teaching the same lies under different banners. Jesus will not recognise disunited people who pretend to follow his teachings and who go through the motions without any real knowledge of what they believe or why they believe it.
Blind faith is not what God requires....like blind hatred, it has no substance at the bottom of it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

It's good to be armed with facts....and plenty of Scripture.......

Yes Farouk....facts from both sides of the story.....we can only evaluate something when we have heard ALL the facts. It’s why our judicial system has to hear both sides of a dispute or case before a judgment or verdict can be handed down.

If all we hear is one biased side of a story, we will never arrive at the truth. (Proverbs 18:13)

 

[keithr]

Well gee, I can copy and paste huge amounts of smokescreen too but it doesn't change the FACT that parables don't use literal Biblical people. Luke 16 is not a parable. It agrees with perfectly clear teachings by Jesus. Do you believe in ETERNAL life? Then you are not being consistent.

It is not a smokescreen, it is a serious study with many Bible references to support it's statements and arguments. It sounds as though you couldn't be bothered to read it.

If you think it is not a parable simply because it is referring to literal Biblical people, then where else in the Bible does it refer to a rich man who has five brothers, and a beggar called Lazarus? They are not literal Biblical people any more than the "certain man" who "had two sons" in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32).

Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The EXACT same Greek word.

Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

So we will either have eternal life or eternal death. The punishment for sin is death, so the eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is eternal death.

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

If you're not in the book of life, then instead of eternal life you will have a second death (total destruction), with no further chance of resurrection to life again.

 

[Johann]

But that was conditional, a smidgen is known but man doesn't know what the full purpose of man was because man chose to walk away from the purpose.

....and, the end.

 

[Johann]

I believe we are being saved from the consequences of our sin. I'm not talking about hell, after our lives our finished. I'm talking about the consequences of our sin here on earth.

..also from the wrath of YHVH

 

[Johann]

..the Bible does not teach that we have a conscious, separate part of us that goes on living when we die. That idea came from the pagan Greeks, just one of many pagan adoptions.

I would say Jewish Encyclopedia disagree with you here, and so the Zoar.
I'm not criticizing, just following your opinions.
I must confess, you seem highly intellectual.

 

[Johann]

Please tell me which verses we rewrite and I'll tell you the ones that were rewritten for you, centuries before you were even born.

JW?

 

[Johann]

Christendom demands such credentials, with degrees in theology, but God never did.....some things never change.

So in which yeshiva did you study, Bet Hillel and/or Bet Shammai?
If Christendom has it wrong I would presume Judaism have it right, correct?

 

[Aunty Jane]

So in which yeshiva did you study, Bet Hillel and/or Bet Shammai?
If Christendom has it wrong I would presume Judaism have it right, correct?

Why would you come to that conclusion, as if it is the only one?

In light of the parable of “the wheat and the weeds”, Jesus said that there would true “wheat” and the counterfeit “weeds” of Christianity.

Judaism was condemned by Jesus, so I have no interest in Talmudic explanations in the way that the Pharisees interpreted scripture.
The Tanakh however, gives me translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, which I do not believe can be altered significantly. It is God’s word and part of what I study as a serious student of the Bible.

What masquerades as “Christianity” today, (as represented by Christendom) is nothing like the genuine Christianity that Jesus and his apostles taught. There are so many additions and adoptions that crept in gradually centuries ago and ultimately resulted in the declaration of Roman Catholicism as the most dominant expression of “Christianity”....or what a Roman Emperor decided was the best solution to the disunity of his divided empire. By combining pagan elements with twisted Bible teachings, he created the ultimate counterfeit....true “weeds” that spread out to encompass the whole world, and with the same result as Jesus said that the Pharisees were guilty of.
That was the birth of Christendom, later to have ‘daughters’ who carried their mothers teachings with them into Protestantism with its many expressions, but who all hold to a common core of false teachings. (Also found in most non-Christian religions)

Matthew 23:13-15....Jesus said...
“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you shut up the Kingdom of the heavens before men; for you yourselves do not go in, neither do you permit those on their way in to go in.

15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna twice as much so as yourselves.”

But true to Jesus’ words, there would be genuine “wheat” growing along with those “weeds” in the “world”....and these would be a hated and persecuted minority, teaching in opposition to the religious establishment, just as Jesus and his disciples were a hated and persecuted minority in the first century trying to educate the uneducated majority about the truth of God’s word.....The bulk of their persecution came from those who claimed to worship the same God. It would be no different today.....the devil has no new tricks. He knows what works because human behaviour is very predictable. We are not without warning about all these things. What happened to the worship of the Jews, would be used to derail Christianity as well. (Romans 15:4) Can you not see the parallel? (Matthew 15:7-9)

The Bible gives us a clear ‘bigger picture’ if we just read it....all of it is the word of God, written for the benefit of those who are prepared to put in the effort to read and understand its overall theme....the coming and purpose of God’s Kingdom. God’s spirit then provides the understanding. (John 6:65)

What do you understand God’s kingdom to be?

 

[Johann]

The Tanakh however,

Which Tanakh AJ?