What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Johann]

he effort to read and understand its overall theme....the coming and purpose of God’s Kingdom.

(ephthasen eph' humās),...
There is, beside, the use of entos meaning “within” in the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus saying of Jesus of the Third Century (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 426) which is interesting: “The kingdom of heaven is within you” (entos humōn as here in Luk_17:21).

Which Tanakh AJ?

 

[Aunty Jane]

Which Tanakh AJ?

Since I have no interest in Talmudic interpretation, I use “The Complete Tanakh” just for Hebrew to English translation.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

I have no desire to get into any discussion about “which Tanakh”.....it is completely off topic.

 

[Johann]

Christianity.

"Professed Christianity"

 

[Johann]

Since I have no interest in Talmudic interpretation, I use “The Complete Tanakh” just for Hebrew to English translation.

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/63255/jewish/The-Bible-with-Rashi.htm

I have no desire to get into any discussion about “which Tanakh”.....it is completely off topic.

Late here, 12:29 AM
Unbeknownst to you, I am following your posts with interest, but disagree,

 

[Aunty Jane]

(ephthasen eph' humās),...
There is, beside, the use of entos meaning “within” in the Oxyrhynchus Papyrus saying of Jesus of the Third Century (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 426) which is interesting: “The kingdom of heaven is within you” (entos humōn as here in Luk_17:21).

Luke 17:21 is another very misinterpreted verse.
Who was Jesus talking to when he said this? He was speaking to the ones of whom he said “their heart is far removed from me”.....so “the kingdom of God” was NOT “within” those men. (Matthew 15:8-9)

Jesus was telling those hypocrites that the King of God’s Kingdom was standing “in their midst” and they failed to recognise or to acknowledge him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Late here, 12:29 AM
Unbeknownst to you, I am following your posts with interest, but disagree,

There is no mandate to agree......all must make their own decisions about what is truth.
God knows the heart’s response.....he does the rest. I am only a messenger.

 

[Johann]

Since I have no interest in Talmudic interpretation, I use “The Complete Tanakh” just for Hebrew to English translation.

You will be surprised, but these sources will deepen your appreciation for God's d'var AJ.
Shalom

 

[Johann]

There is no mandate to agree......all must make their own decisions about what is truth.
God knows the heart’s response.....he does the rest. I am only a messenger.

I'm sure you know the doctrine of election?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I'm sure you know the doctrine of election?

Absolutely.....who are the elect?...that is the question...and what is the purpose of election in the first place?

 

[Johann]

Luke 17:21 is another very misinterpreted verse.
Who was Jesus talking to when he said this? He was speaking to the ones of whom he said “their heart is far removed from me”.....so “the kingdom of God” was NOT “within” those men. (Matthew 15:8-9)

Jesus was telling those hypocrites that the King of God’s Kingdom was standing “in their midst” and they failed to recognise or to acknowledge him.

I concur, context...

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.


Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


Eph 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
Eph 4:32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.


2Co 13:4 For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Shalom

 

[Johann]

Absolutely.....who are the elect?...that is the question...and what is the purpose of election in the first place?

Signing off AJ
Late here in South Africa

 

[Aunty Jane]

Signing off AJ
Late here in South Africa

OK....tomorrow I will respond to your last post.
Have a good night.

 

[Johann]

OK....tomorrow I will respond to your last post.
Have a good night.

1Who would have believed our report, and to whom was the arm of the Lord revealed? אמִ֥י הֶֽאֱמִ֖ין לִשְׁמֻֽעָתֵ֑נוּ וּזְר֥וֹעַ יְהֹוָ֖ה עַל־מִ֥י נִגְלָֽתָה:
2And he came up like a sapling before it, and like a root from dry ground, he had neither form nor comeliness; and we saw him that he had no appearance. Now shall we desire him? בוַיַּ֨עַל כַּיּוֹנֵ֜ק לְפָנָ֗יו וְכַשֹּׁ֙רֶשׁ֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ צִיָּ֔ה לֹא־תֹ֥אַר ל֖וֹ וְלֹ֣א הָדָ֑ר וְנִרְאֵ֥הוּ וְלֹֽא־מַרְאֶ֖ה וְנֶֽחְמְדֵֽהוּ:
3Despised and rejected by men, a man of pains and accustomed to illness, and as one who hides his face from us, despised and we held him of no account. גנִבְזֶה֙ וַֽחֲדַ֣ל אִישִׁ֔ים אִ֥ישׁ מַכְאֹב֖וֹת וִיד֣וּעַ חֹ֑לִי וּכְמַסְתֵּ֚ר פָּנִים֙ מִמֶּ֔נּוּ נִבְזֶ֖ה וְלֹ֥א חֲשַׁבְנֻֽהוּ:
4Indeed, he bore our illnesses, and our pains-he carried them, yet we accounted him as plagued, smitten by God and oppressed. דאָכֵ֚ן חֳלָיֵ֙נוּ֙ ה֣וּא נָשָׂ֔א וּמַכְאֹבֵ֖ינוּ סְבָלָ֑ם וַֽאֲנַ֣חְנוּ חֲשַׁבְנֻ֔הוּ נָג֛וּעַ מֻכֵּ֥ה אֱלֹהִ֖ים וּמְעֻנֶּֽה:
5But he was pained because of our transgressions, crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his wound we were healed. הוְהוּא֙ מְחֹלָ֣ל מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ מְדֻכָּ֖א מֵֽעֲוֹֽנוֹתֵ֑ינוּ מוּסַ֚ר שְׁלוֹמֵ֙נוּ֙ עָלָ֔יו וּבַֽחֲבֻֽרָת֖וֹ נִרְפָּא־לָֽנוּ:
6We all went astray like sheep, we have turned, each one on his way, and the Lord accepted his prayers for the iniquity of all of us. וכֻּלָּ֙נוּ֙ כַּצֹּ֣אן תָּעִ֔ינוּ אִ֥ישׁ לְדַרְכּ֖וֹ פָּנִ֑ינוּ וַֽיהֹוָה֙ הִפְגִּ֣יעַ בּ֔וֹ אֵ֖ת עֲו‍ֹ֥ן כֻּלָּֽנוּ:
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he would not open his mouth; like a lamb to the slaughter he would be brought, and like a ewe that is mute before her shearers, and he would not open his mouth. זנִגַּ֨שׂ וְה֣וּא נַֽעֲנֶה֘ וְלֹ֣א יִפְתַּח־פִּיו֒ כַּשֶּׂה֙ לַטֶּ֣בַח יוּבָ֔ל וּכְרָחֵ֕ל לִפְנֵ֥י גֹֽזְזֶ֖יהָ נֶֽאֱלָ֑מָה וְלֹ֥א יִפְתַּ֖ח פִּֽיו:
8From imprisonment and from judgment he is taken, and his generation who shall tell? For he was cut off from the land of the living; because of the transgression of my people, a plague befell them. חמֵעֹ֚צֶר וּמִמִּשְׁפָּט֙ לֻקָּ֔ח וְאֶת־דּוֹר֖וֹ מִ֣י יְשׂוֹחֵ֑חַ כִּ֚י נִגְזַר֙ מֵאֶ֣רֶץ חַיִּ֔ים מִפֶּ֥שַׁע עַמִּ֖י נֶ֥גַע לָֽמוֹ:
9And he gave his grave to the wicked, and to the wealthy with his kinds of death, because he committed no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth. טוַיִּתֵּ֚ן אֶת־רְשָׁעִים֙ קִבְר֔וֹ וְאֶת־עָשִׁ֖יר בְּמֹתָ֑יו עַל לֹֽא־חָמָ֣ס עָשָׂ֔ה וְלֹ֥א מִרְמָ֖ה בְּפִֽיו:
10And the Lord wished to crush him, He made him ill; if his soul makes itself restitution, he shall see children, he shall prolong his days, and God's purpose shall prosper in his hand. יוַֽיהֹוָ֞ה חָפֵ֚ץ דַּכְּאוֹ֙ הֶֽחֱלִ֔י אִם־תָּשִׂ֚ים אָשָׁם֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ יִרְאֶ֥ה זֶ֖רַע יַֽאֲרִ֣יךְ יָמִ֑ים וְחֵ֥פֶץ יְהֹוָ֖ה בְּיָד֥וֹ יִצְלָֽח:
11From the toil of his soul he would see, he would be satisfied; with his knowledge My servant would vindicate the just for many, and their iniquities he would bear. יאמֵֽעֲמַ֚ל נַפְשׁוֹ֙ יִרְאֶ֣ה יִשְׂבָּ֔ע בְּדַעְתּ֗וֹ יַצְדִּ֥יק צַדִּ֛יק עַבְדִּ֖י לָֽרַבִּ֑ים וַֽעֲו‍ֹנֹתָ֖ם ה֥וּא יִסְבֹּֽל:
12Therefore, I will allot him a portion in public, and with the strong he shall share plunder, because he poured out his soul to death, and with transgressors he was counted; and he bore the sin of many, and interceded for the transgressors. יבלָכֵ֞ן אֲחַלֶּק־ל֣וֹ בָֽרַבִּ֗ים וְאֶת־עֲצוּמִים֘ יְחַלֵּ֣ק שָׁלָל֒ תַּ֗חַת אֲשֶׁ֨ר הֶֽעֱרָ֚ה לַמָּ֙וֶת֙ נַפְשׁ֔וֹ וְאֶת־פֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים נִמְנָ֑ה וְהוּא֙ חֵֽטְא־רַבִּ֣ים נָשָׂ֔א וְלַפֹּֽשְׁעִ֖ים יַפְגִּֽיעַ:

AJ, to whom is Isaiah referring to?
If you read Rashi's "commentaries" you will know the answer. but I disagree with Rashi.

 

[Aunty Jane]

OK...first things first....let me address these verses....

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Interesting word “translated”...so what is the definition in our understanding of what that means?
I refer to Strongs, which translates the word "metatithēmi" as "taken up". So how was Enoch "taken up"? And what were the circumstances of this action taken by God?
What is the reference in the Hebrew scriptures?
Genesis 5:24 says....
"Enoch walked with God, and he was no longer here, for God took him."

Almost all translations render the verse this way......so why did God take him and where did he go?
What were the circumstances that warranted this action by God?
Jude 14-15 tells us...
"Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, 15 to execute judgment on all, to convict all who are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have committed in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.”
This is back before the flood of Noah's day and mankind had obviously, even then proved to be incorrigibly wicked.

Hebrews 11:5...
"By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God."

He was "taken" so as to prevent him from suffering a violent death at the hands of those wicked people he was living amongst. Those who hated what he had prophesied against them and indeed all evildoers.

As it says in John 3:13..."no man has ascended into heaven but the one who descended from heaven, the Son of man."
So, Enoch did not go to heaven because Jesus was the first one to experience a heavenly resurrection.
So where did Enoch go? To "sheol" where he would "sleep" peacefully until this whole mess is over. (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10)
After the destruction of the wicked, God would resurrect both the righteous and the unrighteous once God's kingdom was ruling the earth. (Acts 24:14; John 5:28-29)
Revelation 21:2-4 would then see fulfillment.

Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

So who are the "saints"? And if all Christians are of "the heavenly calling" (as some assume) why bother mentioning it?
And how are these ones "translated" or "transferred into the Kingdom of his dear son"? They are delivered out of power of darkness to what situation whilst they are still in their mortal flesh?

2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

What is this "sealing" or "anointing" of God's saints....and what is this "earnest of the spirit in our hearts"?
Whose hearts?

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Olde English is an abomination to me but I know people like it for some reason that escapes me....

Here it is from the NKJV...we'll take it verse by verse...
"11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, 12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory."

So there is an "inheritance" that was "predestined" according to God's purpose. It was for those who "first trusted in Christ"....or the first apostles and disciples who followed Jesus. After the death of the apostles however, Christianity was to fall away into error just as Judaism had done, adopting all manner of false ideas and grafting them over ambiguous verse in the scriptures. (2 Peter 3:15-16)

The "weeds" of counterfeit Christianity were sown "while men were sleeping", which could mean the death of the apostles and the subsequent watering down of the word of God...or it could mean the spiritually drowsy state of early "Christianity" from about the second century onward. It doesn't really matter because it happened, and that is what we see in the history of "the church". By the 4th century it was ripe for the apostasy to take hold and for the weeds to do what weeds do best.

So when it says "We have obtained an inheritance" that was predestined by God's will and purpose, was it the individuals that were predestined or the arrangement itself? How do these ones "inherit" what God promised? What was his "purpose" in connection with his elect?

"13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise"
So this "sealing" came after these first disciples heard the word of the gospel and "believed" what they heard. Then came the "sealing", also mentioned again in Revelation 7:2-3 as still taking place in "the Lord's Day"....the time we are living in now.

"14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory."
So the holy spirit is the guarantee of the "inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession."
What do you think that means?

Romans 8:16-17...
"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs—heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together."

What is the "inheritance" of which the elect are "heirs"....or "joint-heirs with Christ"? What are they inheriting with Jesus?

 

[Jack]

It is not a smokescreen, it is a serious study with many Bible references to support it's statements and arguments. It sounds as though you couldn't be bothered to read it.

You authored it?

If you think it is not a parable simply because it is referring to literal Biblical people, then where else in the Bible does it refer to a rich man who has five brothers, and a beggar called Lazarus? They are not literal Biblical people any more than the "certain man" who "had two sons" in the parable of the prodigal son (Luke 15:11-32).

How evasive. You never read about Lazarus, Moses and Abraham in the Bible?

Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

So we will either have eternal life or eternal death. The punishment for sin is death, so the eternal punishment mentioned in Matthew 25:46 is eternal death.

Again evasive. Eternal means NEVER ending. As in "forever and ever".

Revelation 20:14-15 (WEB):

(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
(15) If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.​

You conveniently stopped reading.
Revelation 20 And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

If you're not in the book of life, then instead of eternal life you will have a second death (total destruction), with no further chance of resurrection to life again.

Total destruction? You made that up. Death in the Bible NEVER means "cease to exist".

 

[Jack]

Luke 17:21 is another very misinterpreted verse.

You are not qualified to rewrite our Bible!

 

[Jack]

Please tell us where we have rewritten the Bible....I keep asking but you have no answers....do you see how God works? Ignorance has no place in Christianity.


O dear......nothing to see here but blind prejudice....exactly the same as Jesus and his disciples experienced....why do you think Jesus said....
“Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you and say all kinds of evil things about you falsely on account of me. Rejoice and be glad, because your reward is great in heaven, for they persecuted the prophets before you in the same way.” (Matthew 5:11-12 - NET)

He also said....
“If the world hates you, be aware that it hated me first. If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you do not belong to the world, but I chose you out of the world, for this reason the world hates you. Remember what I told you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you. If they obeyed my word, they will obey yours too. But they will do all these things to you on account of my name, because they do not know the one who sent me.” (John 15:18-21 - NET)

Who is persecuting you and telling lies about you? Who is saying dreadful things about the way you worship and conduct yourself in the world?

Why did Jesus first century disciples receive the vile and hateful response that came from the Jews, who claimed to worship the same God? Was it because they were behaving wickedly? Or because they begged to differ with the religious establishment? Where did the opposition really come from that spread to the people and influenced them to want to kill Jesus? Was it because Jesus was evil? They were told he was, and they believed it without question. Are you also doing the same thing? Blind hatred is like a cancer that robs people of their thinking ability.....they hate without knowing why....they hate because others told them to hate.

What do you really know about the beliefs of Jehovah’s Witnesses? If you could defend your own beliefs scripturally, that would be one thing, but you cannot present anything except to mindlessly defend what someone else has told you. Why do you believe as you do? Who told you that it was correct? Are you yourself “brainwashed”?

You see, it’s all about who you believe.....not just what you believe.
The devil is a master deceiver....he can make the truth look like lies and vice verse.....are you a victim?

Instead of your blind hatred, why not simply discuss our beliefs and the origins of them, using all the resources available to us. People who make decisions without hearing ALL the facts are the most ignorant.

For goodness sake do your homework and go to the source, not to those who tell you what you want to hear and only feed your hatred, so evident in all that you post to me.
Ask us why we believe as we do because we already know what you believe....a great number of us have come out of Christendom because we saw no Christianity either taught or practiced there.

I chose to become one of Jehovah’s Witnesses 50 years ago because I saw no genuine Christianity practised or taught in my church. I tried different denominations but found them to be teaching the same lies under different banners. Jesus will not recognise disunited people who pretend to follow his teachings and who go through the motions without any real knowledge of what they believe or why they believe it.
Blind faith is not what God requires....like blind hatred, it has no substance at the bottom of it.

So you've been brainwashed by the WatchTower 50 years? You twist nearly ever verse in the Bible to change the meaning of what God said.

 

[Jack]

well, if you read the Bible long enough that will likely change on you, Jack, what can i say. Kinda obvious that you didnt avoid apostles for your first three years of study like Paul advised, either! But i dont know anyone who did lol.

Anyway believe that as long as you like ok, but the Bible doesnt really support that imo

It is OBVIOUS that Satan has sent his messengers to tell us that Hell isn't "forever and ever" as Jesus warned. Satan wants our company in Hell "forever and ever"!

 

[Jack]

I do not, and know a lot of wonderful Christians who are Jehovah's Witnesses.

You need to pay attention to Jesus instead of JW's.
Matthew 25
46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

 

[Aunty Jane]

AJ, to whom is Isaiah referring to?

The Messiah of course....

If you read Rashi's "commentaries" you will know the answer. but I disagree with Rashi.

I have no interest in Rashi's commentaries.
I do not subscribe to the Jewish viewpoint on anything really....
We know who it was that Isaiah prophesied about, but the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah to even show up, let alone to expect his return.

Jesus dispensed with the House of Israel.....they no longer a feature in his purpose, though individual Jews are welcomed into his Christian family.
Jesus said of the Jewish leaders and those who stuck with their errors....
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ ”

Jesus was quoting Psalms 118:26....
"Blessed be he who has come in the name of the Lord; we have blessed you in the name of the Lord. כובָּר֣וּךְ הַ֖בָּא בְּשֵׁ֣ם יְהֹוָ֑ה בֵּֽ֜רַכְנוּכֶ֗ם מִבֵּ֥ית יְהֹוָֽה:"

If the Jews put their Messiah to death, and have never blessed the one who came in the name of Yahweh (whose name is mentioned twice in that verse) then after almost 2,000 years, what makes anyone think that there will be a last minute leap of faith?
They still cannot, even to this day, utter his name.