What Are we Getting Saved From?

[keithr]

What is different between you and JW's?

That is totally irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to answer that question.

You don't believe in "eternal life"? It's the same Greek word as "eternal punishment", NEVER ending.

... Even the JW bible says "forever and ever".

I never once disagreed with "forever and ever", so I don't know why you would come up with that comment. I was commenting on the word "tormented". If you can't understand that then I'm not surprised you can't understand the Bible.

 

[Jack]

That is totally irrelevant to the discussion, so I'm not going to waste my time trying to answer that question.


I never once disagreed with "forever and ever", so I don't know why you would come up with that comment. I was commenting on the word "tormented". If you can't understand that then I'm not surprised you can't understand the Bible.

If God isn't your Savior then you have a phony savior. God / Jesus is my Savior. There is no other Savior.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Aunty Jane said,
So why does evil exist? Because everything in God’s creation is in perfect balance. In order for good to exist, it’s equal counterpart also had to exist, but the extreme good that God would gift to his children also had extreme evil as its opposite. That is what the tree represented....God’s love for his children and a desire to allow free will to be exercised only within the limits he set.....and always for their good.[/QUOTE\]

I disagree that evil had to exist. Adam and Eve had the ability to obey whatever command God laid upon them, understanding of course that the True God would never give a command that was impossible for them to obey. Because you said evil also had to exist for creation to be in perfect balance, and since evil came into existence in creation from an angel who caused Adam and Eve to disobey the True God, you're basically saying that God deliberately created an angel that was evil.

The forbidden tree simply represented the True God's sovereignty, meaning that only the True God YHWH has the right to decide what was in the best interests of what he created(what was good) or what wasn't in the best interests of what he created( what was evil or bad). So for you to say evil had to exist, meaning the evil that the angel caused to come into existence when this angel caused Adam and Eve to disobey God, I disagree that kind of evil had to exist for creation to be in perfect balance.

 

[keithr]

I disagree that evil had to exist.

I agree with you. Jesus is going to perfect God's Kingdom, perfecting everyone and destroying everyone who will not remain faithful to God and His righteous laws, including destroying Satan and his angelic/demonic followers (Revelation 20:7-10). Only those who are perfect and in harmony with and obedient to God will be allowed to live (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:7-8). Then Jesus will hand over the Kingdom to God (1 Corinthians 15:24), God will dwell with mankind and there will be no more death, and no more evil, for all eternity (Revelation 21:3-5).

In the beginning, "God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Genesis 1:31), so there was no evil originally. Sin and evil entered, and God cursed mankind and the earth, so that evil flourished, but in the coming Kingdom "There will be no curse any more" (Revelation 22:3) - everything will be perfect. God can and will do it!

 

[Jack]

I agree with you. Jesus is going to perfect God's Kingdom, perfecting everyone and destroying everyone who will not remain faithful to God and His righteous laws, including destroying Satan and his angelic/demonic followers (Revelation 20:7-10). Only those who are perfect and in harmony with and obedient to God will be allowed to live (Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21:7-8). Then Jesus will hand over the Kingdom to God (1 Corinthians 15:24), God will dwell with mankind and there will be no more death, and no more evil, for all eternity (Revelation 21:3-5).

In the beginning, "God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good" (Genesis 1:31), so there was no evil originally. Sin and evil entered, and God cursed mankind and the earth, so that evil flourished, but in the coming Kingdom "There will be no curse any more" (Revelation 22:3) - everything will be perfect. God can and will do it!

Satan will certainly wish he was destroyed!
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@BARNEY BRIGHT and @keithr.....I think you misunderstand.....the tree was called “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. The “knowledge” that God wanted to keep away from his children was the knowledge of evil. He placed in his own jurisdiction the ability to decide what was good and what was evil for them. This knowledge had to exist, but God was going to keep it to himself and not allow it to interfere with the lives of his human children.

Because of free will however, he could not take away their choice, but as a protection, he placed a severe penalty in front of it. Under normal circumstances, that would have been enough to keep it locked away.......but the devil tempted the woman to step outside of the boundaries that God had set, and unleashed this knowledge so that its impact affected them immediately with a feeling of shame that came over them because of their naked state. Evil itself did not come into existence when Adam ate the fruit....it was already there as an equal opposite of good.....the humans accessed it by disobeying their Sovereign.....to the detriment of all of us. Christ came to “undo the works of the devil”.
Remember what God said when he sentenced the rebels in Eden?....
Genesis 3:22
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—”

What do you think he meant?

 

[keithr]

Satan will certainly wish he was destroyed!

Well then he is in luck! Hebrews 2:14 (KJV):

(14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;​

Satan will then not have the power of death - Revelation 21:4 (KJV):

(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.​

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Satan will certainly wish he was destroyed!
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The lake of fire is said to be the second death. Death is the opposite of living. If you are living, you can see, hear, feel, you're aware of our surroundings, etc but death is the opposite o all that. When Satan and his demons are thrown into the lake of fire that means they're destroyed out of existence for eternity. Just as death and Hades which are also thrown into the lake of fire, when they are thrown into the lake of fire it means they're destroyed out of existence for eternity. So when anything or anyone else is thrown into the lake of fire they are destroyed out of existence for eternity.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

@BARNEY BRIGHT and @keithr.....I think you misunderstand.....the tree was called “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. The “knowledge” that God wanted to keep away from his children was the knowledge of evil. He placed in his own jurisdiction the ability to decide what was good and what was evil for them. This knowledge had to exist, but God was going to keep it to himself and not allow it to interfere with the lives of his human children.

Because of free will however, he could not take away their choice, but as a protection, he placed a severe penalty in front of it. Under normal circumstances, that would have been enough to keep it locked away.......but the devil tempted the woman to step outside of the boundaries that God had set, and unleashed this knowledge so that its impact affected them immediately with a feeling of shame that came over them because of their naked state. Evil itself did not come into existence when Adam ate the fruit....it was already there as an equal opposite of good.....the humans accessed it by disobeying their Sovereign.....to the detriment of all of us. Christ came to “undo the works of the devil”.
Remember what God said when he sentenced the rebels in Eden?....
Genesis 3:22
“Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever,—”

What do you think he meant?

I agree with what the Society says, that the forbidden tree represents Gods rulership, his sovereignty. Gods right to decide what is in the best interests of what he created(good) and what's not in the best interests of what he created(bad, evil).

Awake magazine 1974 October 8th page 11 under subheading A Test for Mankind’s Good:"The tree of knowledge of good and bad that he set off bounds to them was used
to represent or symbolize his sovereign right to decide for his creatures what is “good” and what is “bad” for them.

Watchtower 2018 April page 6, 7 paragraph 10: Adam and Eve had the freedom to choose whether they would obey God or not. But only Jehovah has the right to decide what is good and what is bad. “The tree of the knowledge of good and bad” was evidence to Adam and Eve of that fact.

So the tree of knowledge of good and evil represents God's sovereignty his rulership, meaning only his right to decide what is good or bad for what he created. So whatever the true God says is in the best interests of his creation a person is to be obedient and put into practice what God says is in the best interests of his creation. Whatever the true God says isn't in the best interests of what he created then a person is to abstain from what God says isn't in the best interests of creation. What God says we should do we do, what God says we should not do we don't do.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Aunty Jane when the scriptures say, "Jehovah God then said: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad. Now in order that he may not put his hand out and take fruit also from the tree of life and eat and live forever."

It means that Adam and Eve decided that they would decide for themselves without God what is in the best interests of human beings and what is not in the best interests of human beings.
The first human pair were not devoid of knowledge of good and bad. God had told them that it would be wrong or bad to eat of the fruit of one designated tree; so, to obey God was good. (Gen. 2:16, 17) So the particular “knowledge” indicated by the “tree of the knowledge of good and bad” involved a self-determining of what is good and bad. On this, Professor T. J. Conant wrote: “By disregarding the divine will, and deciding and acting on his own, man chose to know for himself what is good and evil.” Yes, Adam and Eve rejected God’s determination and chose to set up their own standard of what was good and what was bad.

What about God’s statement, “The man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad”?

In Genesis 1:26 Jehovah said: “Let us make man in our image.” The Scriptures point to the conclusion that God was here speaking to his only-begotten Son, who later came to earth as Jesus. This one, the Word, was God’s master worker through whom all other things were made. (John 1:1, 3; Col. 1:15, 16; Prov. 8:22-31) The similarity of expression in Genesis 3:22 suggests that Jehovah was again speaking to the one closest to him, his only-begotten Son.

It would indicate that the Word already had “knowledge of good and bad.” From his long and intimate experience with Jehovah, the Son certainly learned well his Father’s thinking, principles and standards. Convinced of his Son’s acquaintance with and loyalty to these, Jehovah may have granted him some latitude, also, in handling matters without direct consultation with the Father in each instance. So the Son would to this extent be able and authorized to determine what was good and bad. However, he would not be setting up a standard that conflicted with Jehovah’s.
With Adam and Eve, their coming to know good and bad involved breaking Jehovah’s command and rejecting his standards. So Adam and Eve by breaking Gods command about the forbidden tree were saying they could decide for themselves what was in the best interests of mankind and what isn't in the best interests of mankind better than God and his only begotten Son. Satan, and Adam and Eve were saying they can live without God rulership deciding without God and bring about a paradise earth that would be without sickness, hunger, homelessness, etc without God and his only begotten Son

 

[Jack]

Sure looks like a JW forum, twisting the Hell out of Scripture!

The basic JW argument: The Bible doesn't mean what it says. It means what Kingdom Hall says.

 

[Jack]

The lake of fire is said to be the second death. Death is the opposite of living. If you are living, you can see, hear, feel, you're aware of our surroundings, etc but death is the opposite o all that. When Satan and his demons are thrown into the lake of fire that means they're destroyed out of existence for eternity. Just as death and Hades which are also thrown into the lake of fire, when they are thrown into the lake of fire it means they're destroyed out of existence for eternity. So when anything or anyone else is thrown into the lake of fire they are destroyed out of existence for eternity.

Says Kingdom Hall, not God of the Bible.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Says Kingdom Hall, not God of the Bible.

I know that's what you believe but the plain simple fact is, not only do you not believe in death but you believe it's impossible for God to destroy evil out of existence and you believe the true God tortures a person or persons. I know death is the opposite of life. I know that God doesn't promise eternal life to Satan his demons and all humans who follow him. So they will cease to exist as living persons. Satan and the evil that Satan brought into existence and all those who side with his evil will be destroyed out of existence whether you believe it or not.

 

[Jack]

I know that's what you believe but the plain simple fact is, not only do you not believe in death but you believe it's impossible for God to destroy evil out of existence and you believe the true God tortures a person or persons. I know death is the opposite of life. I know that God doesn't promise eternal life to Satan his demons and all humans who follow him. So they will cease to exist as living persons. Satan and the evil that Satan brought into existence and all those who side with his evil will be destroyed out of existence whether you believe it or not.

I think you are another Kingdom Hall victim. Of course Satan's messengers deny the "everlasting fire". He wants your company.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I think you are another Kingdom Hall victim. Of course Satan's messengers deny the "everlasting fire". He wants your company.

So what, I think just as you think I'm a messenger of Satan I think you are a messenger of Satan.

 

[Jack]

So what, I think just as you think I'm a messenger of Satan I think you are a messenger of Satan.

If you're wrong you will burn in the fiery Hell "forever and ever" with Satan. If I'm wrong I will have eternal peace. You're not gonna like spending eternity with Satan and the worst beings who ever lived in the "everlasting fire" that Jesus warned you about. Kingdom Hall: hallway to Hell fire! Now go and consult with Kingdom Hall.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

If you're wrong you will burn in Hell "forever and ever" with Satan. If I'm wrong I will have eternal peace. You're not gonna like spending eternity with Satan and the worst beings who ever lived. Kingdom Hall: hallway to Hell fire!

YHWH God isn't wrong what he inspired to be written down at Genesis 2:7, which YHWH God says we are souls not that we have souls. This one scripture shows that the immortality of the soul is false that the Hellfire doctrine is false. It shows that you don't have some living soul or living person in your human body that separates from your body at death and goes anywhere but instead at death the only hope for the dead is the resurrection of living person back into existence as a living soul or living person.

 

[Jack]

YHWH God isn't wrong what he inspired to be written down at Genesis 2:7, which YHWH God says we are souls not that we have souls. This one scripture shows that the immortality of the soul is false that the Hellfire doctrine is false. It shows that you don't have some living soul or living person in your human body that separates from your body at death and goes anywhere but instead at death the only hope for the dead is the resurrection of living person back into existence as a living soul or living person.

Why don't you quote the Scripture? Do you need to consult Kindgom Hall?

 

[Jack]

YHWH God isn't wrong

"YHWH God" isn't Kingdom Hall.

 

[Jack]

YHWH God isn't wrong what he inspired to be written down at Genesis 2:7, which YHWH God says we are souls not that we have souls. This one scripture shows that the immortality of the soul is false that the Hellfire doctrine is false. It shows that you don't have some living soul or living person in your human body that separates from your body at death and goes anywhere but instead at death the only hope for the dead is the resurrection of living person back into existence as a living soul or living person.

You're as evasive as a JW. Hmm
Why doesn't Satan admit that he is Satan? Why don't JW's admit that they are JW's?