What Are we Getting Saved From?

[Jack]

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

 

[keithr]

Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!

So you want people to be tortured forever! Be careful what you wish for. Jesus said, Matthew 5:21-22 (ESV):

(21) “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’
(22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.​

 

[Jack]

So you want people to be tortured forever! Be careful what you wish for.

You might want to be more careful about lying.

Jesus said, Matthew 5:21-22 (ESV):

(21) “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’
(22) But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.​

You just admitted the everlasting fire is Biblical! Good for you!

 

[keithr]

You might want to be more careful about lying.

I have never lied on this forum. It's possible I may have been incorrect, but that is not lying - lying is saying something that you know to be false.

You just admitted the everlasting fire is Biblical! Good for you!

You're mistaken again! Your attention to detail is poor. Matthew 5:22 has no mention of anything being eternal. I quoted the ESV version to keep you happy, as it uses the word hell, but of course, as I've mentioned before, it's not actually referring to hell (hades). It should be as the WEB translation puts it:

"whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna."​

Jesus is saying that if you call somebody a fool then you are in danger of being executed as a criminal and your dead body thrown into the fire in the Valley of Hinnom. You should pay attention to what God's word actually says, and not to what you have been told that it says.

 

[Jack]

I have never lied on this forum. It's possible I may have been incorrect, but that is not lying - lying is saying something that you know to be false.

You flat out lied about me!
"So you want people to be tortured forever!"

You're mistaken again! Your attention to detail is poor. Matthew 5:22 has no mention of anything being eternal. I quoted the ESV version to keep you happy, as it uses the word hell, but of course, as I've mentioned before, it's not actually referring to hell (hades). It should be as the WEB translation puts it:

"whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of Gehenna."​

Jesus is saying that if you call somebody a fool then you are in danger of being executed as a criminal and your dead body thrown into the fire in the Valley of Hinnom. You should pay attention to what God's word actually says, and not to what you have been told that it says.

You do the JW twist so well!

 

[keithr]

You flat out lied about me!
"So you want people to be tortured forever!"

In post #721 you wrote:

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!​

If you didn't mean that you want people to be tortured, then you must be ignorant of what you wrote. 'Amen' means "so be it" or "may it be so". So along with the exclamation mark it sure sounded like you enthusiastically wanted people to be tortured forever. God is not so evil that He would torture even Satan for eternity, let alone torture forever humans who only have lived for a few decades.

 

[Jack]

In post #721 you wrote:

And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Amen Jesus!​

If you didn't mean that you want people to be tortured, then you must be ignorant of what you wrote. 'Amen' means "so be it" or "may it be so". So along with the exclamation mark it sure sounded like you enthusiastically wanted people to be tortured forever.

Amen means I agree with Jesus! In NO WAY does it mean it makes me happy that billions of people will burn in Hell with Satan. Please stop lying. Liars will burn in Hell "forever and ever" with Satan. And God won't ask their permission.

God is not so evil that He would torture even Satan for eternity, let alone torture forever humans who only have lived for a few decades.

Typical JW argument. You're saying our Christian Bible is wrong:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

From his world ! in fact ! Is what we are being saved from in fact ! Delusions and Deception of this World in fact !

 

[Aunty Jane]

From his world ! in fact ! Is what we are being saved from in fact ! Delusions and Deception of this World in fact !

We are being saved from exactly the same thing as Noah and his family were saved from....not the world and its evil, but from God's wrath upon them, because of it.

As we await the final judgment of this world, we must be certain of our position before God. We must have built our own "ark" which the apostle Peter equates with our baptism.....speaking of the angels who sinned...."who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ", (1 Perter 3:20-23 NKJV).....so, we can be saved through the 'water' in a vessel that God has helped us to build by giving us the explicit instructions on how to go about it. The problem is, like Noah's day, the majority don't believe that it is going to overtake them. And those on board this ark have to do what Noah did and put in the effort to work for their own salvation, and to reject the elements of this world that corrode the conscience, namely violence and immorality. But like the Israelites were constantly told to do....we must also steer clear of false worship. The challenge is to identify it in a world deceived by the devil. (1 John 5:19) The "god" of this world can make the truth seem like a lie and vice versa....(2 Corinthians 4:3-4)...but he can only deceive those who don't believe the truth.

God doesn't save anyone, but he teaches us to save ourselves by a complete separation from the goings on of this world, in strict obedience to the teachings of his son...our King, redeemer and judge, who warned us....."But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matthew 24:37-39)
It's not that the people didn't know what Noah was doing or why he was doing it, but they chose instead to ridicule him and ignore his message.
Not a soul outside of the ark survived God's judgment on that world....

So who do we imagine is going to survive God's wrath on this present world.....?
Again Peter warns...."Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter 3:11-13) Who will enjoy the righteousness of the new earth, if they cannot avoid the unrighteousness of this one?

Our survival depends upon our obedience to God in all things, not just the convenient stuff.....

 

[Jack]

God doesn't save anyone, but he teaches us to save ourselves...

Just when you think you've read most of the Kingdom Hall's LIES! Satan is RAMPANT at Kingdom Hall!

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

Amen means I agree with Jesus! In NO WAY does it mean it makes me happy that billions of people will burn in Hell with Satan. Please stop lying. Liars will burn in Hell "forever and ever" with Satan. And God won't ask their permission.

Typical JW argument. You're saying our Christian Bible is wrong:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The Bible does not support the heathen eternal torment doctrine that is popular with adherents of counterfeit Christianity. People who subscribe to this silly fable are always quick to point at that passage as "proof", but they somehow manage to ignore passages that contradict the way they read Rev. 20:10:

“For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up, says the LORD of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch. You shall trample the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day that I do this,” says the LORD of hosts. - Mal. 4:1, 3

"raging waves of the sea, foaming up their own shame; wandering stars for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever." - Jud. 1:13

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. - Jhn 3:16

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom. 6:23

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” ’ - Rev. 2:11

The Bible teaches that Satan and his demons will be condemned to wander in the darkness of space forever and that condemned human beings will be completely destroyed by the lake of fire to the point where resurrection is no longer possible.

The false eternal torment supports the ages old lie that Satan started in Eden when he told Adam and Eve that they already possessed eternal life, even though Rom. 6:23 clearly teaches that immortality is something God has to bestow upon a person because He alone possesses immortality(1 Tim. 6:16). Human beings are dirt(Gen. 2:7, 3:19) and we do not inherently posses eternal life.

If we as human beings inherently possessed eternal life, there would be absolutely no need for God to give anyone His Spirit. Rom. 8:9-10 however, teaches that a person must possess the Holy Spirit to have any hope of living forever, which was the whole point behind Paul telling the Thessalonians not to quench the Spirit of God(1 Thess. 5:19).

 

[Jack]

The Bible does not support the heathen eternal torment doctrine that is popular with adherents of counterfeit Christianity.

Another Kingdom Hall victim? Should we believe you or Jesus?
Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

People who subscribe to this silly fable are always quick to point at that passage as "proof", but they somehow manage to ignore passages that contradict the way they read Rev. 20:10:

Satan LOVES it when people deny "Hell fire" that Jesus warned us about! He wants your company "forever and ever".

 

[Jack]

The question is mute! There is no place of everlasting fire so why would God need ask such a question! You dont understand Bible imagery...like someone else I know lol.

You just called Jesus a liar.

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[Aunty Jane]

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Like a broken record ......that doesn't mean that the fire is literal. The tumbleweeds just keep coming.....
Don't you know any other scripture?

 

[keithr]

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

And verse 46 says:

(46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

The righteous will have eternal life, the unrighteous will therefore not have eternal life. The punishment of the unrighteous is death, eternal death (Romans 6:23). When someone is cast into a fire they die.

Daniel 12:2, talking of the resurrection, says:

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Or as the YLT translates it:

(2) 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
​

The dead (unconscious, having no thoughts, hence described as asleep and awaking to life when resurrected) will be restored to life to either live forever, or to die again. Those judged to be unrighteous and unworthy of life will be remembered with abhorrence. They will not be alive, living in a fire! The word dera’own, that is translated as abhorrence or contempt, is only used twice - the other occurrence is the last verse of Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV):

(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Isaiah 66:24 (MKJV):

(24) And they will go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have sinned against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be put out; and they will be an object of disgust to all flesh.​

The context is God's final judgement (WEB):

(15) For, behold, Yahweh will come with fire, and his chariots will be like the whirlwind; to render his anger with fierceness, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
(16) For Yahweh will execute judgment by fire and by his sword on all flesh; and those slain by Yahweh will be many.​

(23) It shall happen that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before me,” says Yahweh.
(24) “They will go out, and look at the dead bodies of the men who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”​

It clearly states that all those living will worship God, the rest God will have killed, and the living will look upon the bodies of the dead with abhorrence/contempt.

As Paul describes it in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (WEB):

(7) ... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,
(8) punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,
(9) who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

Destruction is not eternal life, not even if it is a life of torture - it is eternal death (sleep forever).

 

[Aunty Jane]

The Bible teaches that Satan and his demons will be condemned to wander in the darkness of space forever and that condemned human beings will be completely destroyed by the lake of fire to the point where resurrection is no longer possible.

I am interested to know why you believe that Jude 1:13 is speaking about the devil and his angels...?
If you read the scripture in context it is not about the rebel angels at all...though they are mentioned as a pattern, the scripture is about “men” who were subverting the faith of others....

“Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . . . Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe. And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day . . . . . Yet in the same way these men, also by dreaming, defile the flesh, and reject authority, and revile angelic majesties. But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed. Woe to them! For they have gone the way of Cain, and for pay they have rushed headlong into the error of Balaam, and perished in the rebellion of Korah. These are the men who are hidden reefs in your love feasts when they feast with you without fear, caring for themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn trees without fruit, doubly dead, uprooted; wild waves of the sea, casting up their own shame like foam; wandering stars, for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever.” (Jude 1:3-6, 8, 10-13 NASB)

Jude was warning his brothers about apostate “men”, not rebel angels.
Like humans, angels are God’s free-willed children, and therefore not immortal. God will destroy any disobedient ones among them, like he will destroy the wicked among mankind. Their final judgment will be the same as it for wicked and disobedient humans.....eternal death.

Immortality is given only to the elect who will rule with Jesus in his heavenly Kingdom, bringing sinful mankind back into reconciliation with the Father, and thus restoring his original purpose for mankind here on earth. That is what the Bible tells me....

 

[Jack]

And verse 46 says:

(46) These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

The righteous will have eternal life, the unrighteous will therefore not have eternal life. The punishment of the unrighteous is death, eternal death (Romans 6:23). When someone is cast into a fire they die.

Daniel 12:2, talking of the resurrection, says:

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

Or as the YLT translates it:

(2) 'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
​

The dead (unconscious, having no thoughts, hence described as asleep and awaking to life when resurrected) will be restored to life to either live forever, or to die again. Those judged to be unrighteous and unworthy of life will be remembered with abhorrence. They will not be alive, living in a fire! The word dera’own, that is translated as abhorrence or contempt, is only used twice - the other occurrence is the last verse of Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:24 (KJV):

(24) And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

Isaiah 66:24 (MKJV):

(24) And they will go out and see the dead bodies of the men who have sinned against Me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be put out; and they will be an object of disgust to all flesh.​

The context is God's final judgement (WEB):

(15) For, behold, Yahweh will come with fire, and his chariots will be like the whirlwind; to render his anger with fierceness, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
(16) For Yahweh will execute judgment by fire and by his sword on all flesh; and those slain by Yahweh will be many.​

(23) It shall happen that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, all flesh will come to worship before me,” says Yahweh.
(24) “They will go out, and look at the dead bodies of the men who have transgressed against me; for their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”​

It clearly states that all those living will worship God, the rest God will have killed, and the living will look upon the bodies of the dead with abhorrence/contempt.

As Paul describes it in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 (WEB):

(7) ... when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire,
(8) punishing those who don’t know God, and to those who don’t obey the Good News of our Lord Jesus,
(9) who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might,​

Destruction is not eternal life, not even if it is a life of torture - it is eternal death (sleep forever).

Sleep forever? lol
So you admit they will exist forever! And you deny "eternal life"! Kingdom Hall has stolen your brain.

 

[Jack]

Destruction is not eternal life, not even if it is a life of torture - it is eternal death (sleep forever).

You made a terrible mistake when you went to Kingdom Hall.

2 Thessalonians 1
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

A process that is "everlasting", NEVER ending!

 

[Aunty Jane]

Sleep forever? lol
So you admit they will exist forever! And you deny "eternal life"! Kingdom Hall has stolen your brain.

You made a terrible mistake when you went to Kingdom Hall.

What kind of mentality is it when something is told to someone time and again and they still carry on like they don't know?
What is your obsession with the Kingdom Hall? It's a building.....it does not teach anyone anything, nor are half the people you accuse of being JW's, actually JW's......they keep telling you.....try listening for a change, or at 74, do you some kind of memory problem?

2 Thessalonians 1
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

A process that is "everlasting", NEVER ending!

"Everlasting destruction"......hello...? If something is "destroyed forever" it means that the destruction is NEVER ENDING.....
Can you read? Eternal death is the opposite of eternal life..... What is left when something is "destroyed"? Look up the word in a dictionary.

 

[keithr]

Sleep forever? lol
So you admit they will exist forever! And you deny "eternal life"!

No I don't admit that! As Daniel 12:2 which says "those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake" is descibing death as a sleep, so likewise I wrote that eternal death is like an eternal sleep - there will be no waking up from it. The last verse I quoted also describes the punishment as eternal destruction - destruction means they will no longer exist.

I also did not deny eternal life. I wrote "The righteous will have eternal life", quoting Matthew 25:46. Pay attention! You frequently seem to totally misunderstand what other people write (so perhaps it's no surprise you also frequently misunderstand what the Bible writers wrote).